30k speed limits for all urban areas on the way

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122099086#Comment_122099086

the claim that Irish drivers are bad, despite the data showing to the contrary, is an extraordinary claim.

That's not my argument. Do you want me to respond to an argument which you are claiming I'm making?

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122099774#Comment_122099774

Clever. Now who is to blame for these incidents?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122099987#Comment_122099987

My post which you had responded to, was defending Irish drivers against charges that dangerous driving is widespread in this country. A claim I reject. To be fair, after asserting that I am "looking at it from the perspective of the steering wheel." (as opposed to data and evidence), you did make other points.

Specifically with regard to what you assert is a lack of cyclists in Ireland. The data you presented show that the Netherlands is an outlier in Europe and that Ireland is closer to European general norms. In that, most European peoples generally regard bicycles as being of limited use.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122103249#Comment_122103249

Roughly what percentage of drivers do you see with phones in their hands or on their laps?

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122103268#Comment_122103268

I thought my question was fairly simple and didn't need to be answered with another question.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122103249#Comment_122103249

Would you like to include the legend, and maybe even the source of your map please?

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122103311#Comment_122103311

The map came from the article magicbastarder posted and it showed the percentage of people in each European country who cycle as their main mode of public transport. Red is zero and green is 41, in the case of the Netherlands. As you can see, Ireland's position is in line with European norms.

Back to my original question, regarding the statistical fluctuation you referred to above, who is to blame for it?

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122103249#Comment_122103249

Conveniently ignores the rest of the article!!!....

It shows Dublin with one of the highest percentage of "bicycles as main mode of transport" across all EU capitals.

Obviously Ireland as a whole has a very low percentage of bikes as "main mode" of transport, given we've the most rural population in Europe, outside of Slovenia.

All that article shows is that Ireland as a whole can increase bike usage towards EU averages, if we invest in cycling infrastructure.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122103568#Comment_122103568

Again, this data show that Ireland is broadly in line with European norms, not some wild outlier as suggested previously.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122103351#Comment_122103351

I didn't refer to any statistical fluctuation. I referred to 71 people killed on our roads by drivers, a 25% increase on same period last year. Last year was a 19% increase on the previous year. If that trend continues, we'll be somewhere around 230 deaths for this year, up from 155 in 2022.

How many 'fluctuations' of 20%+ increases will it take for you to get it?

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122103727#Comment_122103727

So which of Ireland's 3.3 million "drivers" are you blaming for this fluctuation?

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122103627#Comment_122103627

Between 2010 and 2018, cyclist deaths increased by an average of 8% per year in Ireland, versus a decline of 0.4% per year across the EU.

That's suggests one thing - cycling infrastructure is very poor in Ireland, cyclists are careless in Ireland, and/or behavior of other road users endangers cyclists in Ireland. Definitely 2 of those... **cough** other road users **cough**

https://www.thejournal.ie/ireland-high-cyclist-deaths-eu-4990173-Feb2020/

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122103727#Comment_122103727

"I didn't refer to any fluctuation" you claim, just before you again refer to the same one, and then refer to another one. 🙄

Do you understand the meaning of the word?

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122104094#Comment_122104094

Why arbitrarily focus on the years 2010 to 2018?

If you instead chose 2008 to 2018, or 2014 to 2018, you'd be talking about a drop, because of the fluctuations between those years (and yes Andrew, there's that word again).

Furthermore, if we focused on the years 2010 to 2018 in terms of overall road deaths, we'd be talking about a significant drop, from 212 down to 136. Would you be drawing conclusions from that which you still deem relevant today?

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122103351#Comment_122103351

SeanW is correct that the article in question was posted by me; unfortunately the colour coding on the map in question hides detail.

you can see even someone like SeanW, with his hawk like eye for detail, can be confused into thinking 'red is zero' when this is not the case.

italy:

clearly, anything under 5% or thereabouts is red - but that hides significant discrepancies. i was looking at the table which put ireland nearly in last place, SeanW chose the map which makes those differences hard to see.

anyway, it's weird that the netherlands can be such a strange outlier in the numbers citing cycling as main mode of transport, yet total road deaths are below european average, and despite all that, it's consistently cited as one of the best european countries to be a driver in.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122104882#Comment_122104882

I absolutely understand what Seanie is trying to do, with succour and support from yourself - which is to consistently downplay very significant increases in road deaths and injuries, by hiding behind 'fluctuation' to make it appear to be a minor issue.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122104907#Comment_122104907

You'd be drawing conclusions from the fact that if we say on the current trend, we'll be somewhere around 230 deaths this year, nearly a hundred up on 2018. That's fairly scary.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122103818#Comment_122103818

I'd start with blaming those who consistently downplay the dangers on the road, such as your good self.

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122105287#Comment_122105287

You didn't answer the question on whether or not you understand the meaning of the word.

Never mind - the fact that you proceed to put it inverted commas, as though you feel its usage in this context is inappropriate, makes me suspect even more strongly that you don't actually understand it.

On your other point, you're quite clearly incorrect. If focusing only on the years 2010 to 2018, then by definition you wouldn't even be considering more recent figures, or drawing any conclusions from them.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122105468#Comment_122105468

Is it really a good idea to be playing statistical games when faced with very significant increases in road deaths and injuries?

magicbastarder

huh? statistics suit you till they don't, then you claim others are reverting to 'statistical games'.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122105226#Comment_122105226

It's still not a lot - 1%, 0%, 4%, is a distinction without a difference IMHO.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122105291#Comment_122105291

So first you blame anyone who doesn't agree with you, then you blame "drivers" writ large (all 3.3 million presumably), I suppose the actual culpable parties get a pass?

I have this bizarre idea that we actually blame people who are actually responsible for something bad, not swathes of people who had nothing to do with it.

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122106116#Comment_122106116

I'm simply asking you if you understand the meaning of a certain word. All indications are that you don't.

Only reference to statistics I made was to point out that focusing only on the years 2010 to 2018 to make a point here is highly arbitrary, and indeed highly irrelevant, given the more recent trends and statistics.

That's not a "statistical game". As a matter of fact, it actually supports your own case, since you focus on much more recent data yourself. If you focused only on 2010 to 2018 in terms of overall road deaths, then you'd see nothing other than an overall downward trend, and you'd have little or nothing to say here.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122106361#Comment_122106361

0% to 1% is a big difference, as is 1% to 4%. Especially so given the large scale of measurement here (commuter population level)

You do realise how percentages work?

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122106361#Comment_122106361

So first you blame anyone who doesn't agree with you, then you blame "drivers" writ large (all 3.3 million presumably), I suppose the actual culpable parties get a pass?

I have this bizarre idea that we actually blame people who are actually responsible for something bad, not swathes of people who had nothing to do with it.

So effectively you think it is better to punish someone after the event rather than mitigate against the event actually occurring in the first place?

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122106745#Comment_122106745

So to answer you question with a question, if a maniac gets behind the wheel of a car drunk and kills a bunch of people, should we blame the maniac or entire groups writ large?

Because the latter is what Andy seems to be looking for.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122106778#Comment_122106778

We have laws that prohibit drunk driving and driving into people and all drivers must obey them, not just the maniacs who might do this.

So to reduce the number of unnecessary deaths and injuries that occur in urban areas, we can reduce the speed factor by bringing in rules that facilitate this.

So, what you're saying is that the proposed 30km/h rule is a good thing? OK cool 👍️

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122106839#Comment_122106839

Well Andy seems to blame "drivers" or "motorists" writ large for everything bad that happens, regardless of cause and seemingly excusing the culpable parties.

I do not. As for additional rules, such as blanket 30kph rules, the question of proportionality arises - is this a proportionate or excessive measure? There's a credible argument based on the actual data to suggest it's disproportionate.

But are you seriously suggesting that driving at 50kph is the same as driving after skulling 10 pints?

blackbox

Unfortunately there is very little scientific reporting in Ireland of the root cause of road collisions, whether fatal or not.

However I suspect that a lot of these involve people failing to obey existing laws.

The Irish knee jerk response is to bring in new laws, when the current level of enforcement is like you'd expect in a third world country.

Having said that, I'm not against 30kmh speed limits in urban areas - i.e. where front doors open onto pavement or street. Low speed limits such as 50 or 60kmh are ridiculous on most suburban dual carriageways.

magicbastarder

what would you count as a 'suburban dual carriageway'?

if it's suburban, that would generally presume there are houses on it - not too many dual carriageways you'd consider 'suburban' which wouldn't.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122106778#Comment_122106778

So if most people are in favour of making our urban streets safer, cleaner, quieter, nicer places to socialize, work and play in, should we penalize all of those people or just the few privileged drivers who still want to bomb through urban areas at 50kmh?

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122107124#Comment_122107124

I would not consider 50kph to be "bombing" nor would I consider 3.25 million to be a "few privileged drivers."

And it most certainly is not "most people" that are pushing for widespread 30kph limits.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122107645#Comment_122107645

Not all drivers are so privileged as you to expect to drive wherever you want at whatever speed you choose. Their is broad support across Ireland for making our towns, cities and villages nicer places to live and be in.

I consider 50kph in an urban street (not including main arteries) to be "bombing it", but you're entitled to feel it's not.

AndrewJRenko

72nd death of the year

https://extra.ie/2024/05/08/news/irish-news/clare-traffic-incident-infant-boy

Paddigol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122112601#Comment_122112601

"Thoughts and prayers but don't you dare tell me how to drive my car". And people here laugh at the Yanks and their refusal to budge on gun culture rights…

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122112672#Comment_122112672

You mean, the 3.25 million drivers who had nothing to do with it?

I know according to some "motorists" or "drivers" are a collective hive mind, so we must all meet up in a giant guild hall every weekend to decide who we're going to kill this week. At least that's what's implied.

Liam O

I count as a driver and have never driven a car. A truly amazing statistic when you think about it.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122112601#Comment_122112601

"bad thing happens, how I can use it against all Irish drivers collectively?"

I think we get your message.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122113225#Comment_122113225

The message is that compliance with basic traffic laws has gone completely out the window, resulting in dramatic increases in road deaths. Compliance with traffic lights, with mobile phone laws, with the most basic laws about parking are at low levels.

What % of drivers do you see with their phones in their hands or on their laps Sean?

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122113646#Comment_122113646

You haven't even shown that the driver in that case was culpable, let alone all the other "motorists" or "drivers" in Ireland who had nothing to do with it.

And I can't see into other drivers laps so obviously cannot answer your question.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122113718#Comment_122113718

Strange how the largest category of road deaths are motorist vs motorist or single vehicle collisions. Who do you reckon is culpable in those cases?

You should get on a bike sometime, you'll be shocked by how many drivers have their phones on their laps, which is illegal. But leaving that aside, what % of drivers so you see that have their phone visible as they pass, whether to their ear speaking or in their hand for texting or held in front of them for hands-free chatting, because bluetooth pairing is just too much work.

What % of parked vehicles do you see to be parked legally? Not on a footpath or cycle lane or double-yellow or clearway?

What % of changes of traffic lights do you notice one or more drivers going through on red?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122106701#Comment_122106701

I simply understand exactly what you're trying to do, which is to distract the conversation away from the core issue to play your "I'm smarter than you" game. Find someone else to play your games with. This is too serious for that kind of messing around.

Tenzor07

It's amazing when the usual suspect posts up things about cyclists such as "I know according to some "cyclists" or "pedal bikers" are a collective hive mind" get all offended when they feel them in their little car has been singled out..

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122113796#Comment_122113796

What does any of this have to do with the article you posted about the tragedy in Ennis? Did you establish that the driver was doing any of these things?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122114043#Comment_122114043

In fairness yes, it was probably all the fault of the one year old child, for not wearing hiviz or something.

SeanW

So no - you have zero evidence that the driver was culpable.

We now know that the accident occurred in a rural area outside Ennis, outside of permanent traveller accommodation.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2024/0508/1448041-fatal-ennis/

This looks like the place:

https://www.google.com/maps/@52.8389301,-8.9549471,3a,90y,85.95h,87.34t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1stoWN-4OXeatsO-7jS0HRLw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?coh=205409&entry=ttu

So we know the driver didn't cause the collision by running a light as this is in the countryside. Nor was parking likely an issue, and you have precisely zero evidence that the driver was on their phone or driving at a disproportionate speed for a rural road.

In other words, you have zero evidence against THIS driver, let alone "drivers" writ large.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122114327#Comment_122114327

The speed limit on that section of road is 80kph, despite it being a very short distance from Ennis town centre (just 1400m from the train station). It's also a narrow road with no footpaths, and with lots of houses, a halting site and a small business park along it.

This is exactly the reason speed limits need to be (and are being) reduced. A child of only 18mths has died. If the speed limit there was 60kph it's far more likely a car would have had time to stop, or slow down enough to avoid this horrible tragedy.

If you can't see that, I just don't know what to say...

FishOnABike

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122114387#Comment_122114387

Except that from the rte report on the incident it didn't happen on the road. The speed limit there has no relevance.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122114505#Comment_122114505

Yes, right you are. God help them, that's so tragic.

As a general point though, my point still stands regarding a narrow road, with no paths, lots of houses, very close to a town centre and yet the speed limit is 80kph.

It should be 60kph. There should also be paths, but it should still be 60kph.

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122113804#Comment_122113804

If you see it that way, then so be it.

What I see is that you'll go to any lengths to avoid admitting that some of what you post is literally nonsense.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122114387#Comment_122114387

You could start by saying whether or not you agree that Andy was right to infer blame on the driver, despite the fact that he knew so little of the case.

As to the lack of footpaths, that's due to the location being in the countryside. In Ireland we generally don't built footpaths outside of towns, though why a halting site was built there is beyond me. As to why speed limits are being reduced, the data clearly indicate that incidents like these are freak accidents, as European countries collect data on deaths per billion vehicle-kilometres travelled and in Ireland's case it's in the low single digits. (3.4 as of the latest ETSC report)

https://etsc.eu/wp-content/uploads/ETSC-17th-PIN-Annual-Report-DIGITAL-1.pdf

Widespread speed limit reductions - or any other widespread restrictions - because of a very small number of muppets is a textbook case of "hard cases make bad law." It also shows that Andy's claim of bad driving writ large against Irish motorists is certifiable horse ****.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122115828#Comment_122115828

What I see is an attempt to distract the conversation into an academic discussion on the definition on fluctuation, which comes on the back of an attempt to distract the conversation away from the dramatic increases in our death and injury rates by referring to them as 'fluctuations' in the first place.

You can play the 'smartest boy in the class' card all you like, while people are getting killed and injured with alarming regularity. Just don't expect me to play along.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122114327#Comment_122114327

As you well know before you asked the question, there is no information about what happened in this particular incident in the public domain. As you also well know, it's bigger than any one particular incident. It's an ongoing trend of very significant increases in death and injury rates, with people in cars being the largest category of those killed and injured. It's hard to find a way to blame pedestrians or cyclists for motorist vs motorist collisions.

You neatly avoided the questions about the number of drivers speeding, and the numbers using their phones - which has reached endemic levels. You're only kidding yourself if you don't see the connection between non compliance with traffic laws and road deaths and injuries.