30k speed limits for all urban areas on the way

Unrealistic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119356067#Comment_119356067

The one with the 2020 driver on the segregated path was an anomaly, agreed, but that doesn't mean these incidents are rare. And the fact that the incidents I linked to go back a couple of years, doesn't mean there haven't been more recent incidents. To a large part it's driven by the delays in our courts process and the fact that the specific details often only get mentioned in the media when the case gets to court.

Take this one for example:

https://connachttribune.ie/drivers-found-guilty-after-five-day-trial-over-pedestrian-deaths-487/

The deaths occurred more than four years ago, and I remember the crash being reported widely at the time, but I personally only became aware that the two ladies were on the footpath in the last couple of weeks when reading the detailed court coverage.

On the other hand, you have tragedies like this from a few weeks ago, where it has already been reported that the lady was on the footpath when she was killed.

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/woman-dies-after-runaway-car-26808126

Possibly that's because, when there is photographic evidence that the driver ploughed through the footpath into a shop, journalists don't feel compelled to wait until something is given as evidence in court before reporting it.

In any case, I'm certainly not suggesting that the primary aim of lowered speed limits should be to guard against the actions of maniacs. Nor is it primarily about deaths on footpaths. I only posted those examples in response to a poster who made the erroneous claim that pedestrians are safe on the footpath.

The link between speed and severity of injury or risk of death is well understood. We can even see it clearly in the Irish stats. Deaths on rural roads outnumber deaths on urban roads 3:1 in Ireland. But the opposite is the case for serious injuries, where more are recorded on urban roads than on rural roads. Lower speeds in an urban environment is one of the main reasons why many of those collisions recorded as serious injuries didn't result in deaths. The RSA reported 1343 serious injuries last year, on top of the 137 deaths. Even that number could be understated as it relies on the Gardai conveying information to the RSA and they are only reporting 283 serious injuries to cyclists last year but, in a recent FOI request, the HSE reported 1693 serious injuries for the same period. If reduced speed limits, that don't have the same knock on effect on average speed, can significantly reduce the number of deaths and serious injuries, I believe they are worth pursuing.

The new Welsh approach; 20mph (32kph) as a base limit, but with the flexibility to set higher limits based on risks on specific roads, is a sensible one, I think.

SeanW

@magicbastarder you are putting the cart before the horse to some extent. In places where education is planned properly, the question of how children get to school is a settled matter. Like the US, either you live close enough to the school to walk, or you're offered a place on the school bus. Full stop.

@Unrealistic yes, these incidents are rare. According to statistics, fatalities in Ireland road deaths by any cause are limited to 3.3 per billion vehicle kilometres drive, by all types of motor vehicle. So to be involved in a fatal incident of any possible description, the statistically average driver would have to drive over 303 million kilometres. Now factor in that the majority of fatalities do not involve pedestrians and that in many cases of motorist-pedestrian collision, the pedestrians actions caused the collision (when last the RSA published statistics they found a significant percentage), and though I don't have exact statistics, in the cases where a motorist does actually cause the death of a pedestrian, I'd imagine most of those cases are at crossings and the like.

https://etsc.eu/wp-content/uploads/14-PIN-annual-report-FINAL.pdf

Of course terms like "safe" or "common" are relative and mean different things to different people, but it would nevertheless be stretching things to claim that motorists killing pedestrians on footpaths is "common" or that pedestrians are not "safe" on footpaths given statistics.

As someone who uses footpaths regularly my experience is that I have more to worry about from cyclists bulldozing me out of their way than the risk of being hit by a flipped-over car driven by a maniac, which is about on par with being hit by lightening or killed by a falling over vending machine.

The case to force 2.5 million+ drivers to crawl everywhere on the basis of Irish road safety just doesn't exist. More information for your perusal:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate

Seth Brundle

@magicbastarder you are putting the cart before the horse to some extent. In places where education is planned properly, the question of how children get to school is a settled matter. Like the US, either you live close enough to the school to walk, or you're offered a place on the school bus. Full stop.

America's planning system has created cities where people tend to drive when commuting and the centres tend to become empty in the evening. People drive everywhere once they at home in the suburbs. Footpaths are a rarity as a result. America's plannjng system is not a good one to try and emulate at all!

As someone who uses footpaths regularly my experience is that I have more to worry about from cyclists bulldozing me out of their way than the risk of being hit by a flipped-over car driven by a maniac, which is about on par with being hit by lightening or killed by a falling over vending machine.

The case to force 2.5 million+ drivers to crawl everywhere on the basis of Irish road safety just doesn't exist.

Who exactly is forcing anyone driving to crawl (aside from other drivers in heavy traffic)?

SeanW

Some of that is true about the US, but their school systems tend to be the exception. If you are a young person in just about any municipality in the country, you WILL be offered a place in a school determined by your age/level and location. And if it's too far to walk, you're going to be offered a pass to use a municipality-wide school bus system. That's all basically set in stone. As someone who grew up using school buses on both sides of the Atlantic, it's just natural and when I see someone complaining about the modal-share mix of students travelling to school, my first question is "why are these kids not getting the school bus?"

In Ireland we have what in many places is a disjointed, haphazard mélange of schools that don't necessarily have a clear geographic remit and can't guarantee places to students in any given area - the concept of a publicly funded school "not having a place" for a local child is totally alien in places where education is planned in any kind of a coherent manner - like the US. Quelle surprise, many students/families have to make their own plans for student transport, and that often involves a car. So, yes, cart before the horse thinking in the case of the poster I was responding to.

As to "who exactly is forcing anyone to crawl" this entire thread is about activists pushing broad 30kph (or 18.5MPH) speed limits. So, yes, it's about activists forcing people to crawl for basically no reason.

magicbastarder

You're saying that is the reason that kids cycling to school has fallen to just one sixth what it was 25 years earlier? Seriously?

Dravokivich

In fairness I think less kids are cycling in general over that time frame too. With more using scooters as they are easier to get used to. But there's no way to lock them up if a kid was to use it to commute.

magicbastarder

In fairness I think less kids are cycling in general over that time frame too.

yes, but that's the same effect.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119340683#Comment_119340683

Cycling in NL is easy because there are no hills. Most people of almost any age can cycle for miles along a flat landscape. In Ireland, the hills mean children are at risk going downhill, and everyone else has to tolerate the annoyance of struggling up hills

I went for a 10k cycle with the kids at the weekend. Where it was flat, it was a pleasure, we could take our time and the youngest child loved it. When it came to hills, she had her hands on the brake going downhill and was worried at the steeper ones, and when we had to go up hill she really struggled. Her bike has gears but she's still too young to know how to use them properly and they are hard for her to shift

magicbastarder

Cycling in NL is easy because they've the infrastructure.

harmless

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119362870#Comment_119362870

Ireland is reasonably flat. Many cities in the US are as flat as the Netherleands. It's the infrastructure. Build it and they will come, many cities around have already proven this to be true.

All this painting white lines in the gutter needs to stop, it's making the roads worse for everyone.

I find doing 30kph as a driver totally distracting - you’re so focused on your speedometer that you’re not fully focused on your driving- especially when a tailback is building behind you and others are aggressively overtaking you. It’s difficult to maintain a 30kph speed in a car who’s first gear insists on heading towards 60kph.

In cities like Dublin but really any large town, you need to expect the unexpected- pedestrians are notorious for jumping out at any moment on to the road- it’s better you use your full concentration for that and also fully enforce the current 50kph speed limits- that makes much more sense to me.

Changing the road layout in favour of pedestrians has also shown to help drivers reduce speed- but putting all the blame and responsibility on drivers is unfair- what about railings on paths so pedestrians can’t jump onto the road? What about fining pedestrians for not crossing at designated areas?

A 30kph speed limit is not a panacea for reducing road deaths - in some urban areas and estates of houses it may make sense but not everywhere and more needs to be done around traffic calming road design and preventing pedestrians from walking out on roads where there’s heavy moving traffic

Seth Brundle

I find doing 30kph as a driver totally distracting - you’re so focused on your speedometer that you’re not fully focused on your driving- especially when a tailback is building behind you and others are aggressively overtaking you. It’s difficult to maintain a 30kph speed in a car who’s first gear insists on heading towards 60kph.

Change gear then or use crusie control!

In cities like Dublin but really any large town, you need to expect the unexpected- pedestrians are notorious for jumping out at any moment on to the road- it’s better you use your full concentration for that and also fully enforce the current 50kph speed limits- that makes much more sense to me.

Am I correct in thinking that you disagree with slower speed limits because people can walk in front of you at any time? Are you taking the piss?

Changing the road layout in favour of pedestrians has also shown to help drivers reduce speed- but putting all the blame and responsibility on drivers is unfair- what about railings on paths so pedestrians can’t jump onto the road? What about fining pedestrians for not crossing at designated areas?

Railings to stop pedestrians walking? You really want the place looking like a prison simply so you can drive faster to the next set of red lights?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119363024#Comment_119363024

I’m not even going to bother engaging with you- you obviously believe that road deaths are all the cause of drivers and absolutely no responsibility of pedestrians or due to outdated road layout design - in Bordeaux a beautiful city where cars fly around at great speed, there are metal railings everywhere preventing idiot pedestrians from walking out into traffic so I don’t get your outrage with changing Dublin to look like a prison😂😂😂

Seth Brundle

So you can't prove any of my points as wrong then?

magicbastarder

sorry, your car wants to do 60km/h in first gear?

Dravokivich

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119362996#Comment_119362996

What are you driving?

SuperBowserWorld

I find it interesting that road death statistics are discussed but not accidents.

So a kid getting a brain injury or broken back doesn't count or something ?

Hey man, slow down.

https://youtu.be/4OzU1jdjSZA

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119363180#Comment_119363180

A car

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119363092#Comment_119363092

ive already disproved one of them and that’s about as much time as Im willing to devote to you today because as I said previously, you’ve no intention to listen to the views of a motorist

Arguments for 30k

• Safer
• Higher chance of survival and lower likelihood of serious injury in the event of collision
• Reduced tyre noise
• Reduced emissions
• Reduced PM from tyres and brakes

Arguments against 30k

• I don't wanna
• I'm not able to control the vehicle
• Cyclists pass me out
• I don't wanna
• Road tax 🤪

Dravokivich

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119363215#Comment_119363215

So you won't tell us what car (make/model/engine/gearbox) wants to do 60kph in first gear?

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119363215#Comment_119363215

No car "insists" on heading towards 60kph in first gear.

harmless

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119363567#Comment_119363567

What if the throttle is stuck open?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119363362#Comment_119363362

I said heading towards - if you’re in a 30kph zone and there’s a distinct possibility of speed cameras you’ll be doing your level best to watch the speedometer rather than the road ahead.

If you drive in a built up area like an estate of houses and intend on driving slowly overall - you might reach 35kph but because guards don’t usually waste their time sitting with their hairdryers in housing estates, your attention will be fully on driving slowly in general and watching the road- you might do 38 or 28 but the main point is you’ll be driving slowly and keeping your eyes on the road not the speedometer - that’s what safe driving is about - it’s too easy to exceed 30kph in most cars without keeping an eye on the speedometer.

My god, there are some bad drivers on this thread

magicbastarder

to be fair, he's correct - accelerating in first gear means you car is 'heading towards' 60km/h. in the same way you're 'heading towards' the speed of sound.

but it's a bad idea to drive at the speed of sound, it's horrendous for fuel consumption.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119363226#Comment_119363226

To be clear, you didn't disprove anything. You went on again about putting up railings which, to be honmest is an absolutely suggestion and anyone who thinks this is a solution to anything is deluded!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119363079#Comment_119363079

As for not listening to the views of a driver - I'm a driver and have been for a number of decades. I love driving and I love driving fast. I was driving my car less than an hour ago. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything here really because your idea for fencing will still be a completely stupid one, you can't control your car (by your own admission) and you seem to thin that it is more dangerous having pedestrians walk out in front of you when your doing 30km/h rahter than 50km/h.

harmless

I think it's just people taking a dig at this ridiculous headline

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/dublin/2022/06/22/drivers-claim-30-kmh-phoenix-park-speed-limit-causes-engine-damage-and-stalling/

magicbastarder

as an aside, many people don't realise that braking distance (reaction time aside) squares with speed. so braking from 50 to 0 takes just shy of three times as long as braking from 30 to 0.

or look at it this way - it takes twice as long to brake from 50 to 30 as it takes to brake from 30 to 0.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119363672#Comment_119363672

Calling people deluded? Right I can see now the level of maturity I’m dealing with - if immature name calling is all you can come up with along with the faux outrage, I’ll leave you to it.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119363689#Comment_119363689

It's not faux outrage (I'm not outraged at all!), I'm just surprised that you don't think it is deluded to line our urban roads with metal fences simply to stop pedestrians crossing the road?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119363341#Comment_119363341

How do you know 30 is safer? We'd need a few years worth of data to determine that. You might find more overtaking etc leads to more deaths. Either way we don't know. Maybe loss of trust in speed limits would have a negative effect on society.

The main arguements against is that there is nothing wrong with the current limit and we don't need to increase journey times significantly.

harmless

How much does reducing speed limits from 50 to 30 actually increase travel time in heavily congested areas?

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119363579#Comment_119363579

You put the clutch in, brake to a normal speed, clutch out until it engages and bring it to a safe spot, put it in neutral and get the engine off as soon as you can. Take out your phone, call your mechanic and get a tow truck sorted. Ensure to tell the truck driver the throttle is jammed open.

I'm happy to teach you what intelligent people do in these cases, but my time is precious so best of asking stupid questions in the forum rather than this thread.

railer201

It's a stupid proposal for anywhere outside of housing estates, schools etc.

It won't make much difference anyway if it's brought in for the adjacent arterial routes because a stupid law will be seen for what it is and pretty well much ignored.

Good motorists slow right down when the circumstances require it, and they don't need a sign to prompt them to do so.

Let's hope this gobshitery never comes to fruition !

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119363579#Comment_119363579

even apart from using the clutch, your brakes are more powerful than the engine. if your throttle sticks open and you emergency brake, the brakes win.

Dravokivich

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119363581#Comment_119363581

You said, "It’s difficult to maintain a 30kph speed in a car who’s first gear insists on heading towards 60kph." You've put it squarely on the vehicle you are struggling to hold back, not just some rudimentary extreme to trivialise the subject. There's a distinct possibility of speed cameras regardless of the road and it's speed limit.

Driving at 30, is no different that 50 / 60 / 80 / 100. Doing so consistently you get used to how it feels. Or do you often find yourself staring at the speedometer as opposed to a quick glance while driving which we should be doing anyway?

If we actually implemented this, 5 years from now I can almost guarantee the data will show

1) No noteworthy impact on road deaths

2) Conflicting reports on how much it is adhered to and enforced.

With all the many issues we face in this country, this should be bottom of the list stuff.

magicbastarder

road deaths are not the only metric on which you'd judge the success of a measure like this.

pedestrian deaths on motorways averaging zero per year is not proof that 120km/h is safe. it's proof that if people avoid walking on or near the road, they won't get killed.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119362996#Comment_119362996

If your car is insisting on doing any particular speed, you need to take it off the road and bring it to your mechanic urgently. We don’t have autonomous vehicles in Ireland, so drivers need to be in control, by law.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119364031#Comment_119364031

With the threat of speed cameras and the prospect of 3 penalty points when driving in city center area yes, people will rightly stare at their spedos as opposed to put their energy into driving safely.

Those who speed in 50kph zones currently will obviously speed in 30kph zones-

but people in Ireland generally slow down in estates way below 50kph speed limits because they care about the people in that estate - but they’re not doing it because there’s a threat of 3 penalty points, they do it naturally - they may end up driving at 38kph in some parts but that’s still 12lm under the speed limit - their full concentration is on the road, driving carefully- drivers in Ireland have never trained or practiced driving at 30kph - it’s a ridiculous speed limit and it’s going to cause accidents

magicbastarder

one missed opportunity that i guess dublin city council should try is to get two cars to drive around, one limited to 30km/h to see how much difference it does actually make to journey time.

Dravokivich

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119364273#Comment_119364273

What do you mean people haven't practiced driving at 30 kph? I've been doing it for years without incident. That speed limit isn't new either. If someone is purposefully ignoring it and causing an accident, driving safely by doing so, is a hard argument to make.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119364282#Comment_119364282

They'll just catch up with each other at the traffic lights. The only times I've seen people speeding, not being impeded, is when they ignore them too.

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119364273#Comment_119364273

Do you driving in Dublin city at all. It's often quite hard to exceed that speed.

And surely they'll get practice as they do it.

It's such a stupid argument. Can't drive safely at 30 but can at nearly twice the speed. Some people think they can drive safely at 50-60 while being on their phone too.

Given the extent of existing 30k limits in Dublin, you'd have to wonder how some folks are managing not to crash while controlling their uber-powerful motors

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119363581#Comment_119363581

Hold on, you're driving at 35kph in a housing estate?

That's at least twice as fast as you should be driving.

harmless

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119364846#Comment_119364846

The issue is that poster is trying to drive in first gear. As most people know, first gear is only to get the car moving and you can easily do 10km/h in 2nd gear.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119364846#Comment_119364846

And the speed limit is?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119365488#Comment_119365488

Its a limit, not a target

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119365500#Comment_119365500

So why does our driving test punish slow drivers?