Is now the time to convert from Oil Heating to Heat Pumps?

happydude742

Built a house ten years ago with an oil heating system. It is a very well insulated house and about €500 worth of oil previously heated the house for the year (€800 not too long ago and probably a lot more now were I to look for a refill).

Is it time to start thinking about Heat Pumps as a viable alternative? I'm looking to make improvements to the house wherever possible, it seems better for the environment in the long run and in the short term I'm wondering if paying to have a heat pump system installed as opposed to paying exorbitant sums for home heating oil might be a better option.

The house is about 2300 sq foot, no underfloor heating but well insulated. One open fireplace would probably have to be filled in before assessing options.

Any opinions welcome.

Your heating bills are already pretty low in Irish terms, even accounting for the recent doubling. And electricity isn't free either, in fact it tends to track well with oil/gas prices.

The heat pump alone will cost you more than a decade of oil, before running costs. From speaking to other people the insulation was the biggest boon for them rather than the heatpump. But honestly I don't think you're going to get your bills a whole lot lower without dropping ~€15k on a heatpump plus whatever remedial works are required, possibly including new radiators.

EDIT: Couple of people I've talked to have said the insulation moreso than the heatpump is the big saving for them. One of them (self-build) said it's pretty much the only thing he wishes he'd saved money on.

Irish Steve

The heat pump may well turn out to be a serious dissapointment, as there are issues that are being carefully ducked by a number of providers, and they don't mention them unless you specifically ask about them. The comment above about insulation is very relevant, and if your existing BER is not already pretty high up the scale, then a heat pump may well not be able to provide the output needed to ensure the required comfort levels.

So, from what I'm seeing as informed comment about heat pumps at the moment.

The first is that as standard, they run at a much lower temperature than an oil or gas boiler, so there is a significant chance that you will end up having to replace most if not all of the existing radiators, and the units that replace them will be larger than the existing units, so even more wall space taken. The only other alternative is under floor heating, which will be expensive to install on an existing build.

The same issue of temperature will also apply to the hot water system, there is a strong chance that the hot water will have to be boosted by an immersion heater, if for no other reason than to ensure that legionaires disease does not get a foothold, the hot water has to be heated to at least 60 degrees on a regular basis, and heat pumps as standard cannot acheive that level of output, so that's another issue that has to be overcome.

In the longer term, there is also a distinct chance that if you go over to an electric car, you may have to choose between charging the car or running the heating, depending on the size of each unit as the combined current draw of both systems may well exceed the capability of your existing supply line, and upgrading it may well turn out to be a complex and expensive exercise, and also involve other infrastructure upgrades for it to happen for your area.

Several of the above issues are being carefully ducked by people like the Green party, as they don't want to have to admit that the total cost of "going green" may well be considerably in excess of the sort of figures that are being put out there at the moment.

ongarite

Your last gripe isn't a concern with many of the popular electric car chargers.

They have load balancing so will reduce the output to EV if a heat pump or electric shower is calling for high power requirement.

MakersMark

Heat pumps are best left to dedicated new builds designed around them.

Retrofitting doesn't make sense for the vast majority of already built Irish homes.

I'd prefer to see reliable wood pellet systems like those in Germany.

Irish Steve

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118764407#Comment_118764407

It will be a gripe if there's not enough hours available to get a full charge in the time available, which could be the case with the size of some of the batteries being talked about, as the heat pump will be active for long periods at some times of the year. It's something that is not being talked about by too many people at the moment, because resolving it will not be easy.

Irish Steve

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118764417#Comment_118764417

Are there any reviews of what makes are good or bad with pellet systems, they seem to be very much not on the agenda at the moment, SEAI are not offering any grant assistance at the moment, which is a major disincentive, and I can't decide if that's because of the issues around bulk pellet supply, or performance of the boilers, as both seem to be issues.

AlekSmart

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118764384#Comment_118764384

Some of the points made here may be worth considering,even if the mad rush is already under way.....particularly the "mis-selling" bit....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhAKMAcmJFg&ab_channel=SkillBuilder

circadian

On the point of new rads you can get fan assisted radiators that are designed to operate at lower temp water, they aren't as big as traditional steel radiators but they will cost you.

Air tightness I'd a must and I'd recommend an airflow control system like a drimaster or similar to assist in that regard. Solar would also be able to offset some of the running cost.

You'd be best talking to a professional or two to get an idea given the size of your property.

Sleeper12

Heat pumps have been around for over 100 years. They are new to Ireland but tried & tested for decades in other countries. In a high energy rated home they beat oil & gas, hands down. They last twice as long as a modern gas boiler & require little maintenance. The technology & reliability isn't really worth talking about as it's proven to be light years ahead above oil & gas. I do wonder what an entire housing estate might sound like in 15 years when the heat pumps get louder due to no maintenance at all

I do think that the government & installation companies are fudging the numbers to some extent. Most people don't have a lake next door for water to heat or can afford ground to heat. That leaves air to heat & these are less efficient. Still efficient though. As said above heat pumps are perfect for new builds & best suited to underfloor heating or fully ducted systems. To upgrade the rad based, oil or gas, central heating meanes roughly doubling the size of existing rads. It requires an immersion to further heat the hot water in the cylinder but in fairness this will only be topping up 50c water to 65c. It doesn't require a lot of energy to do this.

As a plumber who could do much of the work myself I don't believe I can recoup my outlay in 20 years for full house heating by heat pump. I'll be hanging onto gas for as long as possible

The real message should be insulation, insulation, insulation. This improves the performance of any heating type. It reduces the amount of fuel used & greatly improves the comfort inside your home.

tred

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058236763/is-now-the-time-to-convert-from-oil-heating-to-heat-pumps

I am in the very same boat. At the time i looked at air to heat, and my bro was working at the time in the business and he couldnt honestly stand over them from a reliablity perspective based on what was being returned or reported in the field. not sure what was up then, but they seem to have gotten a handle on it. Air tightness, insulation triple glazed windows. The solo rads comment is true i have them downstairs, but they require power and wiring back to a point. They are not a very simple switch, but they do work very well, i am a big fan of them. Solar for water helps me in sunny months. I would be very interested in a pellet type boiler as a backup option, but i just dont see them out there at all. which surprises me. the pellet stoves do work well from what i see. we have being living wiht fairly cheap oil for ten years. and ESB right now, has jumped in price and only higher it goes.

kbooax

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118764384#Comment_118764384

Do you think it would work for anyone with a B1 rating before the heat pump? I have B1 rating, oil fired heating, open fireplace, property built 2007. Do you think it would be "airtight" enough or just good enough overall for the heat pump to work?

Irish Steve

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118785689#Comment_118785689

I think you're going to have to look very carefully at your existing BER, and get advice from a respected supplier on the future upgrades that will give you the best benefit from the changes that will be the result of any upgrades, and also make sure that your existing BER hasn't been loaded incorrectly.

There are issues around open fires, and from what I'm learning, heat pumps are very much dependent on not having massive air change volumes, and an open fire is for sure a major driver of air movement. I've not looked at the criteria for heat pump grants from SEAI in close detail, but I suspect that with an existing B1 rating, you may not qualify for grant aid, and that could be a significant factor to look at. There will also be issues around radiators, a heat pump won't produce the same heat differential that your existing radiators were sized for, so there may be significant changes there to ensure that there is enough heat going into each area.

The only way to know re air tight will be to get a test done, there is no way to guess if it is good enough or not, and you've not mentioned things like cavity fills, or similar, though I'm guessing that to get to B1, some of that sort of work has already been done.

Sorry I can't be more help, but I'm not qualified to make that sort of call, it's going to have to be made by the people with the specialist training.

listermint

Short answer no. Long answer also no.

Your bills are tiny from an heating perspective right now. You'll save zero money doing this and actually increase your costs.

kbooax

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118786000#Comment_118786000

Thanks for that info. I was told a heat pump won't work properly in homes less than B1 or B2. If I don't qualify for the grant, it would seem that the grant only applies to houses that are pointless to install them in? I'd happily close up the fire and chimney, we never use it.

I do have a fear about the future of heating oil prices though. Since the government and EU want everyone to pollute as little as possible, I fear that kerosene, or any substitute for it (like HVO) is going to be expensive soon (permanently). But with the vast majority of houses being C rated or less, there should be an affordable option for average to low income households. Not many people can spend 30k insulating, replacing windows, etc, getting house to heat pump standards (not even possible in some houses).

You would think surely poor people aren't going to be left freezing in winter? But I am not confident that heat prices will drop to cater for these people, even though they absolutely should.

loopymum

Just a quick note of this. I have a heat pump & recently fitted an immersion which is 3kw

Also be aware of electric showers as some need to rated as much as 10kw.

My house has the 63kw fuse so I bought a zappi charger & set it up for load balancing & to only charge on nightrate. My ev is a 28kw so without load balancing kicking in it will charge from empty in 4 hours. Its rarely empty & if I had a bigger battery & couldnt charge it fully on night rate I could always charge it on day rate. Not a big deal.

I do see the load balancing kick in occasionally on the myenergi hub but it's very brief, usually while boiling the kettle.

We run everything at night. The washing machine. Dishwater. Dryer. Another ev on granny charger

I'm also considering upgrading my electricity supply. It costs 1500 to upgrade it to a 100amp supply. I think that's a standard price.

In saying all that I dont think i would retrofit a hp particularily without having underfloor heating.

kbooax

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118764417#Comment_118764417

That is true at the moment. But do you not think gas and oil will become very high permanently? I know heat pumps won't work for most homes so we will need a new and cheaper way of heating them, but do you not even think people with oil or gas going to be screwed long term? Or do you think something will be introduced to replace them, like heat networks, HVO, hydrogen boilers, etc? Won't these be still expensive to run because they want us all using electricity?

roshje

I was thinking of putting in a heat pump with pv panels on the roof. Have oil and a back boiler heating the house at the moment it is a semi-detached house. A neighbour has put it in and seems happy with it but I am a bit confused now as some say it is not a great option. I don't have any underfloor heating just rads am I mad thinking about changing?

Ubbquittious

You can buy a high temperature ashoop that will heat water to 80 degrees. They cost a fortune though

https://electricheatwarehouse.co.uk/products/hitachi-high-temperature-air-source-heat-pump-pack-11kw-to-16kw-heating-hot-water

Kennie1

Well for what it is worth we installed an Ecodan ATWHP pared to UFH system in a BER C3 2006 build last year. Our previous heating system was wood pellets and we typically spent €1,250 on pellets each year with another €200 on solid fuel for the inset stove.

The BER rating is somewhat meaning less as a heat loss survey is required and has to be under 2 to qualify for the SEAI grant. That said there was no air tightness survey needed which I thought was rather strange. We pumped the cavity of the walls and doubled up the insulation in the attic even though we were not required to do so to get the grant.

With wood pellets we typically had the heat on for 4 to 5 hours every day however with ATWHP we set the temperature to 22.5c for the living area and 20c for the bedrooms and we don't touch the controls again until summer so the house maintains these temperatures 24/7.

We used about 5,500 units of electricity over the last year which would have cost approximately €650 so we saved €850 as we didn't need to put on a fire in the sitting room since the installation. We also installed 7.5kWh of solar to mitigate the additional electricity usage.

So I would say the ROI on the heat pump will be around 10 years and perhaps shorter with energy costs increasing. For me and having to work from home over the last couple of years the real win was that the house was a hell of a lot more comfortable throughout the day. So would I recommend it as a retro fit, well that is a definite yes but only if you have UFH as the cost of upgrading radiators to high performance rads might push out the ROI to far.

Kathleenm1

I'm looking into wood pellet stoves at the moment. Kalor stoves come recommended by a plumber who has one in his home. The issue of moisture is prevented by ordering in plastic bags. The service issues could be circulation pump, ignition starter which needs replacement after 7000 lights and cleaning of the chimney. These are all manageable issues. The seller usually back up with service so you would need check that out. They see very efficient and easy to run.