Did the USA play a significantly negative role in events leading to Ukraine invasion?

Flinty997

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93NATO_relations

You can only do so much.

It’s become a fairly loaded term and tends to be associated with externally driven toppling..

The Russians are going to just have to wake up and deal with this guy themselves. Otherwise it’s going to be a slide to a long term scenario where nobody’s going to want much to do with Russia.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118840385#Comment_118840385

NATO co-operation with Russia was going on up until 2014 and suspended after the invasion of Crimea.

You seemed to mysteriously disappear after I pointed out that Putin broke the Budapest agreements btw.... Just after you had claimed that Zelensky was the guy putting it at risk..

CalamariFritti

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118841713#Comment_118841713

Unless one is glued to boards 24/7 one tends to 'mysteriously disappear' and re-appear from here. Its called doing other things.

And I did retract my 'nuclear rearmament' statement and even apologised before I 'mysteriously disappeared', didnt I?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118841779#Comment_118841779

Except the big factor was you still claimed that Zelensky was destroying the fundamentals of the agreement. Never addressed the fact Putin had already done so.

CalamariFritti

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118841802#Comment_118841802

Did I?

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118840385#Comment_118840385

Right but it would be nice if you could properly address questions put to you in this thread before making demands of others, thanks

For example, I've asked multiple questions you've either ignored or didn't address in the slightest.

Cheerful S

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118835854#Comment_118835854

Moaning about a conspiracist on a conspiracy-managed forum is funny but true. This is something said by you often providing excuses for Azov and asserting it’s all Russian disinformation. I suppose the insignia on the arm part of their uniforms and pictures of soldiers with WW2 Nazi Flags and things like it are falsified by forging experts within the GRU?

Don't worry about my beliefs have look in the mirror first. You have no issue with white nationalists fighting for the Ukraine army.. A bigger deal than having some doubts about numbers killed during the Jewish Holocaust. I don't support Nazism never have and if Russia got a problem like it stamp it out. I have no time for racist bullshit whoever involved.,

The issue is you and friends are claiming Russians got beaten back there hammered only a matter of time before the retreat to barracks and Putin admits defeat. Is that the reason Zelensky screaming for more military aid because of his army is on the advance? or is the losses on their side so great they can’t hold out for much longer? The problem with west media lies. There combat operation maps (provided from both sides) show where Ukraine stands every day and don't see where have managed to take back the land? They might push back a Russian advance on some road, near a field, inside a village but that isn't them winning.

False hope is actually propaganda. Does not matter if think Ukraine good guys and Russia bad guys here.

Cheerful S

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118841713#Comment_118841713

Nato is realistically backed mostly by the American army. Will go away in a scenario American army pulled out. Putin does see their influence in Ukraine as just another step to do harm Russia national interests. United States history around the world hasn't been great. What they did in Libya and Iraq a war crime, but western history is approached in such a way to make it look better.

The Russian haters entirely overlook the coup that took place inside the country. Appointed government in Ukraine got voted out by winning an election and not a coup may be the last decade turned out differently?

When there is a revolution to remove the government don't have a leg to stand on and make a claim the government in Ukraine is legitimate. The areas in Ukraine started an uprising because the government in place was taken out forcefully. Dohnjoe and friends don't see the other side story or history. .The country of Ukraine's turbulent history, in the last decade, lead to the invasion. Putin had a decade to invade fact he waited is evidence that peace wasn't working or something went wrong hereafter Minsk 2

CalamariFritti

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118842056#Comment_118842056

I asked not demanded. No harm in asking.

I also made a good few points nobody bothered picking up. Supposedly because they couldn't be dismissed in the usual offhanded manner.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118843310#Comment_118843310

"Russia haters", another line you've borrowed from Putin. No coup took place inside Ukraine, again that's Kremlin propaganda. Zelensky was voted in in 2019, not in the 2014 elections.

You consistently parrot a lot of Russian propaganda, for example, you don't think Putin had Litvinenko poisoned with polonium 210 in 2006 despite the evidence that the Kremlin was involved, yet you can't explain who did do it. You immediately claimed that the Moscow couldn't have poisoned the Skripals, and defended until the evidence so overwhelming you couldn't support it any longer. You think the White Helmets rescuers in Syria were secretly terrorists and that Assad didn't carry out chemical attacks (again Kremlin propaganda). You openly supported Putin's annexation of Crimea and the proxy war in E Ukraine (you also e.g. think 9/11 was an inside job and you are a Holocaust denier)

Your views are consistently in line with Kremlin propaganda and for this situation it's, unsurprisingly, no different

For a conspiracy theorist who harps on about "questioning everything" and official narratives, it's amazing how much Putin disinfo you unquestioningly reproduce ;)

CalamariFritti

I don't know cheerful or their post history or whatever spat you seem to be having with them. Their past may be checkered since they do not seem to dispute what you're saying. Granted.

But your persistent refusal to address any of their statements in this thread past offhanded 'Putin propaganda' comments does not do you any favours either.

Cheerful S

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118843938#Comment_118843938

Took no line belonging to Putin and find me one positive comment about the country you (said) and all take it all back? Russian haters fits until shown to be wrong.

Just shown here am not a Russian puppet. How can I be a Russian puppet accept forces inside Russia poisoned him? Would RU puppets keep on denying it till the very end????

Unlike you, I am not stuck in any fixed position. Time goes by and the evidence keeps on getting better I will come around. You, this version and everyone else are simply wrong here.

One by one

Case for Skipral : evidence men from Russia ( like GRU maybe ex military) behind it was overwhelming at the end. Weak case at the very beginning but advanced over time. Perhaps with Putin knowledge of it? ( i don't have evidence for it) You’re convinced of it.

Zelensky is elected legitimately, but he was elected after what had taken place previously in the country. A coup ok as it was a Russian puppet leading the government of Ukraine? Do you not care if Ukraine is a puppet for the west? This is how you view everything about the world around you?

fact: Viktor Yanukovych was elected by fair election ( puppet or not) foreign observers said the election result was legitimate. If the president decides to keep his country allied with Russia that's his decision. Just can't have a revolution every time a leader decides on something that a section of the population disagrees with.

With me” I think Ukraine should have had a neutrality pact with Russia and the west. Who’s side is more responsible? This is a rational position that would have made the country more secure.

Litvinenko poisoned with polonium 210 by Russians? Have an obsession that Putin is behind every murder and killing inside the country. It’s possible Putin is not aware of everything, and its rogue agents/military acting on their own for revenge. That's never considered. Putin is in his office ordering all the hits., that's your mindset.

Some of the White helmets had affiliations with identified Syria Islamists. It’s a volunteer group helping the Syrian resistance. Its recruits are mostly from the opposition side. It is not like the Red cross helping everyone no matter the background. It's possible the organization wasn't all bad, but there was some murky stuff going at different stages of, but not a thread for that.

Say this. Chemical attacks may have occurred inside Syria (limited scale). One of the bigger events that justified western military action was shown to be a fraud in everyway when inspectors got to site and had a look,

Crimea and Donbas have to be looked at in the context of what led to this point Russia took action in Crimea.

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118844028#Comment_118844028

Cheerful is a holocaust denier. You can ask him yourself. He's very proud of the fact.

Why should we take his points at all seriously?

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118844393#Comment_118844393

Amazing, literally in every situation listed above you manage to adopt the Kremlin's position. By default :)

For example:

"Fact: Viktor Yanukovych was elected by fair election ( puppet or not) foreign observers said the election result was legitimate. If the president decides to keep his country allied with Russia that's his decision. Just can't have a revolution every time a leader decides on something that a section of the population disagrees with."

He was a highly corrupt Russian puppet, and during protests had over 100 Ukrainians killed, when he finally fled they discovered he had stolen vast amounts of wealth from the Ukrainian people and kept personal details on all the journalists in the country. Where did he flee to? Russia. He's internationally wanted by at least two countries for criminal activity. Who did Putin wheel out a few weeks ago as the new ruler he'd install for when he conquered Ukraine? Yanukovych.

Like Putin's propaganda, you consistently take a grain of truth and build a mountain of disinfo out of it, whether it's your world views like the above, or your conspiracy theorists that change every other day.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118843122#Comment_118843122

Concerning the far right brigades, there's one fighting for the Ukrainians, and there's one fighting for the Russians.

Note how you never mention the Russian brigade, despite being really "concerned" about the issue. You are really "bothered" by one brigade, but not the other. What this tells everyone is that you are concern trolling.

Putting that into context, a European country is being invaded, people are being blown to bits, there's the potential threat of the conflict escalating to a nuclear one, we are most certainly going to see a new Cold War, but one of the big "concerns" for you is that 0.1% of one of the armies has far-right views.

Which, by remarkable coincidence, is once again identical to Putin's propaganda.

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118844990#Comment_118844990

And oddly it didn't concern him when he was quoting and defending literial neo-nazis when he was trying to defend his Holocaust denial.

Also worth remembering that Putin has been pretty instrumental in terms of encouraging the far right globally. Everything from funding to spreading propaganda and election interference.

CalamariFritti

He probably also eats live chicks for breakfast before he goes for a bit of seal clubbing as warm-up for the daily chores. Lads wtf. Is the thread topic so uncomfortable that it must be derailed from at all costs?

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118845294#Comment_118845294

It's not derailing to point out a guy posting claims based on nothing but his own expertise also holds a very ridiculous opinion that could only be a result of extreme ignorance or extreme bias. Or both.

If someone denies the Holocaust they aren't informed or honest about history and world events.

Would you not agree with this?

If you're concerned about keeping the thread on track maybe you could address some of the points made to you.

Particularly I'd still like you to go back and explain your claims that all attacks on Ukrainian citizens were either faked, done by the Ukrainians or were justified.

Or does holding you to that claim make you uncomfortable?

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118845294#Comment_118845294

It's the conspiracy theory forum, it's a cesspit of individuals who repeatedly find a way to blame the US/West for whatever has most recently happened in the news.

Hoop66

you2008

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118840608#Comment_118840608

Nobody? LOL you do know there are two countries called China and India, right?

The fact is nobody is care those EU mickey mouse jump around.

silliussoddius

These 14 pages of proof on the US’s role in the alleged invasion of Ukraine by Russia have really made me question the media.

you2008

Wake up “western media”, don’t be so DOUBLE STANDARD

What USA did in Libya and Iraq was war crime, and western media not saying a sh*t

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118847078#Comment_118847078

What does your second sentence mean? How is the first sentence a reply to the post you quoted?

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118845376#Comment_118845376

And, as is the case in all the CT threads, the CT'ers never comment on each other, except possibly to cheer each other on.

Fritti won't say boo about Cheerful's Holocaust denial, or anything about Holocaust denial in general.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118847078#Comment_118847078

Yes. One is a large developing country and the other is an authoritarian state that practices some kind of corporate state / quasi capitalist mess.

If by Mickey Mouse you mean a $17 trillion economy composed of countries many of which tend to be very high up the league tables for democracy, human rights, social mobility, freedoms, life expectancy, quality of life, work life balance, educational opportunities, equalities and so … I think I’ll just stick with the mice.

The reality of it is the countries Russia is declaring to be ‘unfriendly nations’ are the ones that make up a huge % of the world’s economic activity: EU, USA, Canada, UK, Australia, NZ, Japan, South Korea, Switzerland, members of the EEA, Taiwan etc …

Even China is blowing rather cold on Russia at the moment. It’s far from a desire to rush in and do anything. Various Chinese investment agencies, banks and companies have paused / exited.

India could also be making a monumental error by jumping in on the wrong side of history. It’s not that many years ago it too was trying to shake off the yoke of a powerful old (now defunct) empire. It’s rather disheartening to see India cozying you to an aggressive power that is attacking what is basically a former possession and is displaying every sign of imperialism.

Seems the old Kremlin auto-translator isn’t as good as Google Translate and Alphabet no longer operates in Russia.

you2008

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118847313#Comment_118847313

“stick with the mice” Of course you can stick whatever you want, but don’t be blind to see who is the REAL cause the price inflation in EU.

“make up a huge % of the world’s economic activity” are you ref to G7, have you heard about G20? LOL

“Even China is blowing rather cold on Russia” you will be surprised, as China is not like Ukraine ' leader, China do know, if Russia gone, China will be the next on USA’s menu.

“India could also be making a monumental error by jumping in on the wrong side of history” don’t know what India is thinking as they are fence-sitter anyway……..