Did the USA play a significantly negative role in events leading to Ukraine invasion?

Yeah the REAL cause of price inflation is the complete psycho who has invaded a country, killed thousands, destroyed its infrastructure and caused complete mayhem and displaced several million people.

However, there’s little point in my engaging with a ridiculous bot who can’t even string a logical sentence together.

buzzerxx

The biggest impact you can make in the world, now and always, is to remain an individual. Avoid falling into groupthink, be wary of labels used to box you in, and have confidence in your own thinking. Those three things could have prevented a lot of what we're currently seeing.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118848093#Comment_118848093

Right, but your posts here have demonstrated you will just mindlessly parrot whatever is on your conspiracy feed. You certainly didn't question any of the multitude of Covid conspiracies you've been promoting here. If it's not embarrassing enough to see adults going on about "plandemics", we see some of them lecturing others how to "think" and be an "individual".

buzzerxx

Isn't it amazing, that all the people who are calling Putin a murderer all over social media, never said a fcuking word, when Bush and Blair murdered thousands upon thousands of women and children, and flattened a country when they went to war against Iraq, for absolutely no reason. Strange that.

silliussoddius

Well said. The silence in the lead up to the Iraq war was deafening.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118848428#Comment_118848428

The protests against the Iraq war were among the largest anti-war protests in history. Traditional allies of the US, e.g. Germany and France and much of Europe were deadset against the war and did not support it. The only thing that's "amazing" is your view of reality.

Fathom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118828612#Comment_118828612

To reiterate, my close relative is one of your earlier referred to “human shields” in Ukraine. I don’t need a journalist to tell me who is shooting whom, or who destroys what. I text and chat with him, when it’s safe. But he does not have regular Ukrainian army soldiers hiding behind him. Your justification (and Putin‘s propaganda) for Russians bombing civilian homes, hospitals, and social centers. He and many other civilians are fighting the Russians side-by-side with their Ukraine fellow soldiers.

You keep suggesting in your posts that a Ukraine city or the country should surrender to the invading Russians. If Ireland was attacked by the Russians tomorrow, and they destroyed your home, and your neighbors home, would you ask your government to surrender to the Russians, in order to stop the killing? Would you also post this here, knowing that it is aiding, justifying, and contributing to this Russian talking point?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118848500#Comment_118848500

There were protests in 600 cities, over 1.5 million turned out in Madrid and almost a million in London and protests took place in 150 cities in the US.About 100,000 turned out in Dublin and shut the city down for 4 hours+

It was 2003 and people didn't have Twitter or many online platforms to vent their anger, but there was a LOT of protest. It was pretty much unprecedented in scale.

122 Labour MPs voted against Tony Blair.

France and several other countries, including Germany refused to back it and were utterly pilloried by the GOP and Blair - Remember 'Freedom Fries' and various right wingers were going around ranting full on anti-French stuff... boycotting wine etc etc.

The European Parliament also passed a non binding motion (they'd less power back then too) to lay down criticism to any kind of unilateral action. That as ignored / treated with utter contempt.

There was no silence but it landed on deaf ears.

The aftermath of that still haunts the Labour Party in the UK to this day and effectively finished them for a generation. I would argue that without the Iraq War, the circumstances that led to Brexit would probably never have happened and things in the UK would be a lot more stable and centrist now. UK Labour utterly destroyed itself as a political force by doing something so unbelievably offensive to its own membership that it went into an existential crisis for the last almost 20 years. It's taken that long and I still don't think they've really recovered - they're still a split party and it's mostly down to that event.

None of this makes what Russia is doing any less unacceptable though. It's quite possible to be hugely critical of Russia without that meaning you aren't hugely critical of the Iraq War, and many other conflicts.

72sheep

It is simply ridiculous that this was posted under CT. The grave risks of US meddling in Ukraine has been discussed broadly for years. It's not like there's no recent precedent where we've been lied to about the motivations for starting wars. Heavens above!!

(I shouldn't feel the need to state this but - obviously - there is no contradiction between sympathising with the people of Ukraine and asking questions about what led to this war.)

Fathom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118849644#Comment_118849644

The 2nd Persian Gulf War was not justifiable, no matter what reasons were promulgated by the USA and UK governments. It was interesting to examine the historic oil profits that occurred for USA and UK oil corporations right after the war began. Or the yellow cakes justification later debunked.

Is there a profit incentive for the USA to supply lethal weapons to Ukraine and NATO? Certainly. But this incentive occurred after-the-fact, thanks to Putin’s invasion of Ukraine. Former USA general and president Dwight Eisenhower warned Americans about the Military Industrial Complex, which is profits driven, too. Not just for the USA, but also Russia.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118849708#Comment_118849708

Russia has spent years meddling, poisoning candidates, annexing, and invading Ukraine. In light of that, your concern is US actions? Please share the details

I'll give the benefit of the doubt but on this forum and many others the phrase "asking questions" in reality often means regurgitating baseless propaganda and attempting to discredit facts under the guise of "asking questions".

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118849734#Comment_118849734

US corporations and companies and businesses are suffering due to higher oil costs and instability associated with the war. The sanctions will also have negative economic effects across the board. Arms companies revenue will be pretty far down the list in terms of the overall impact on the economy and Americans, especially when the US is donating billions worth of aid/arms to Ukraine. Likewise, European leaders are responding in the same way, and they certainly aren't driven by a desire to increase profits for arms companies.

stooge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118849708#Comment_118849708

Agree. There are plenty of nonsense threads in the conspiracy theory forum, but I do believe that there should be a valid non-CT thread on Nato/US/UK's involvement and faults leading up to the current situation. It's insulting to people with any level of intelligence that this thread is in with UFOs etc. Going somewhat against popular opinion or current public sentiment is not a CT.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118851338#Comment_118851338

I agree it shouldn't be here.

That said, most posts I've ever seen opened regarding apportioning blame to the US/West anywhere on this forum or even just any international thread invariably attracts conspiracy theorists, Putin-bots and fanatical anti-West "enlightened" types, often low on substance high on endless references to Iraq and "the mainstream media".

The main Russian thread was jammed full of them all the way up to the invasion.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118847313#Comment_118847313

Even China is blowing rather cold on Russia at the moment. It’s far from a desire to rush in and do anything. Various Chinese investment agencies, banks and companies have paused / exited.

Several Chinese-backed aircraft leasing companies, some based in Ireland, are looking at billions of losses due to Putin. They can't be too happy about that.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118851094#Comment_118851094

Also the Russian efforts at peace talks included poisoning the negotiators.... The people pretending they're not bad actors are a mix of deluded or idiots tbh.

buzzerxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118849644#Comment_118849644

Russia NEVER had black slaves nor did Russia create a market to trade black people (1600-1800).

Russia NEVER participated in the Berlin conference to share Africa like some piece of goat meat (1884).

Russia NEVER colonised, underdeveloped and looted Africa's resources (1914-1960).

Russia NEVER enabled a safety net for African leaders to hide stolen funds, use these stolen funds to develop itself and then grant the same funds back to Africa as loans.

Russia never invaded and destabilized any African country (Libya, Somalia, Congo, Burkina Faso, Egypt, South Africa, et cetera).

Russia NEVER killed any of African Freedom Fighter but UK and USA have killed hundreds of of our Saviours and thousands you of our African Freedom Fighters are still languishing in different prisons and dungeons all over America.

Who killed Marcus Garvey of Black Panther USA.

Who killed Thomas Sankara of Burkina Faso.

Who killed Patrice Lumumba of Congo.

Who killed Malcolm X. Of Black Panther.

Who killed Mu'ammar Al' Gaddafi of Libya.

Who killed Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. Of African American.

Who Killed Tupac Sharkur.

Who Killed Fela Kuti.

Who Killed Stephen Biko of Bantu in South Africa.

Who Killed Solomon Mahlangu.

Who killed 5 million BIAFRANS.

...et cetera.

Those who did the aforementioned are the ones pushing the narrative that "Russia" has become the Boogeyman... Those who colonized and for about 100 years refused to share their technology with Africa want Africa to like those they like and hate those they hate.

Nah! Never again!

If Russia is the Boogeyman, then the west the devil himself

The West and Russia should find solutions to their problem. Enough of the killing of innocent Ukrainians. No to war.

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118852609#Comment_118852609

Which country invaded Ukraine though...?

Yup, the US and plenty of others did horrible things over the years. That still doesn’t make invading Ukraine in 2022, killing thousands and displacing millions of people any less wrong.

silliussoddius

Russia, great place after the glorious revolution where nothing bad ever happened.

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118852609#Comment_118852609

Also, Marcus Garvey and Malcom X weren't in the Black Panthers.

Bit funny that you're crying about historical accuracy, yet don't have your own facts straight.

Shao Kahn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118851338#Comment_118851338

There's no real point in having it outside of CT, as it wouldn't result in any sort of open debate.

You would just get the usual types shouting everyone down and forcing their opinions on everyone.

I can understand when the conflict first kicked off, emotions were raw. A major military conflict on European soil for the first time in decades.

But even now in the main Russia thread in CA, there are only really two aspects you can discuss in that thread: your sympathy for the Ukrainian people, or your disdain for Putin/Russia and generally taking the piss out of Russia etc. That's basically about as deep as the discussion really goes. And it is a completely deliberate ploy to avoid anything more nuanced or complex as a way of excluding any and all elements that might broaden the picture.

Exactly the same tactics used by western media too btw. If you stray from this narrative, they just start throwing out all the lazy labels they can think of to dismiss your opinions. But then they get the pointless boring discussion they're looking for, as you can clearly witness if you read the latest posts in that thread. "I love Ukraine this much"... "Look at how pathetic Putin/Russia are today!" .... Bla Bla Bla... ad nauseam.

I bet I'll even get a few responding to this post with the same tactics.

I suppose it's just a symptom of the wider more general degradation of this forum in terms of people's ability to have mature and open discussion, disagreeing but still respecting other people's differing opinions.

Russian mass killings (only looking at major ones and only since 1800

1864: Circassian Genocide: Up to 1.5 million people killed in ethnic cleansing.

1866: Polish Uprising in Siberia. Massacre or 300 people.

1905: Bloody Sunday St Petesberg : 234 people

1912: Lena Massacre- 250 people 

1917-23: White Terror : up to 250,000 people 

1918-19: Red Terror : up to 1.3 million 

Tambov Rebellion : 240,000 including 15,000 executions.

I could go on (lots mor smaller ones)

Then we get to Stalin..

14 million people through the Gulag.

799,455 executions from 1921 - 1953

3.3 million deaths recorded as result of Gulag and forced resettlement / deportation.

Dekulakization 530,000–600,000

Great Purge 700,000–1,200,000

Gulag 1,500,000–1,713,000

Soviet deportations 450,000–566,000

Katyn massacre 22,000

Holodomor 2,500,000–4,000,000 

Kazakh famine of 1931 1,450,000

Total ~7,231,000–9,551,000

Some estimates put excess deaths associated with that era as high as 20 million people.

So yeah, Russia is lovely, other then being built on blood and bones.

Also the whole bit about living under extremely oppressive government, opposition effectively not allowed, decades of authoritarianism, one party rule communism etc etc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118852609#Comment_118852609

For a guy who prides himself on original thought, your post is posted as propaganda across Facebook....

Since Putin has come to power, Russia became one of the most dangerous countries to be a journalist alongside the likes of Afghanistan. Political opponents of Putin have been killed and jailed. Assassinations have occurred in the form of radiation attacks in the UK. One failed chemical weapon attack in the UK. Trying to politically destabilise the west through electoral interference and propaganda farms.

Then there's military actions. First the annexation of Crimea which resulted in his guys shooting down a plane. Then the effort to invade a nation and failing abysmally. But while doing that, he's literally used the threat of nuclear Armageddon to allow for his expansion.

We're all perfectly aware the west have participated in atrocities. Generally we do eventually recognise them and draw attention to the fact. We still even protest some issues which frankly haven't gone away. Meanwhile in Russia, the media are actively fearful of reporting on anything negative in relation to Ukraine. There is no domestic free press. If you protest, you're going to jail or worse.

So buzz, one day you may really have an original thought however at the moment, you're eating up whatever nonsense you see. You are an apologist for a totalitarian regime that has behaved abysmally on the world stage and domestically. You'll now most likely post some more vaccine conspiracies or some nonsense about how Putin isn't that bad. But honestly, your main audience is probably the kind of people who don't believe the Holocaust happened and think Hitler had legit concerns.

Not to mention the old jailing people on trumped up charges or just poisoning them if they are a political opponent. Even most other oppressive regimes are a bit more subtle!

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118852609#Comment_118852609

And copied from this site

https://ethiopianstoday.com/2022/03/27/russia-never-had-black-slaves-nor-did-russia-create-a-market-to-trade-black-people-1600-1800/

Interesting how you lecture other posters on individual thought, but at the same time repost this "Facebook mom" type stuff from the internet

Countries aren't people, yet you are trying to personify them as such. The discussion centers on Putin's administration and his invasion of Ukraine. Listing off cherry-picked parts of history stretching back centuries is an infantile attempt to portray countries as "good" or "bad".

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118852883#Comment_118852883

Express your opinions here then.

That said, what you've written above is loaded with the usual tropes and red flags we've seen by conspiracy theorists having meltdowns on this forum, but will give the benefit of the doubt.

buzzerxx

Banning Russian clubs and leagues from all championships stinks of your double standards. The same principles should have been applied to Israeli occupation leagues long ago. They, too, represent an occupying entity who has been killing women and children for years in Palestine.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118853250#Comment_118853250

Any thoughts on the US role prior to the Ukraine invasion related to Ukraine/Russia?

buzzerxx

They lied to us about:

- Iraq

- Afghanistan

- Syria

- Libya

- Vietnam

- North Korea

- Iran

- Venezuela

- Guatemala

- Honduras

- Haiti

- Cuba

- Panama

- Nicaragua

... But they're telling the truth about Ukraine