Did the USA play a significantly negative role in events leading to Ukraine invasion?

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118866289#Comment_118866289

No cheerful it does matter. You use and defend Nazis and nazi propaganda. You believe that there's a vast global conspiracy by Jewish people to inflate the numbers of people killed in the holocaust.

You only dispute the Jewish figure.

You are now, hilariously trying to accuse people of being racist for not believing your silly conspiracy theories.

Again, please keep going. You are the best example of why people shouldn't be conspiracy theorists.

goldenmick

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118866144#Comment_118866144

Exactly.

I just find it quite sad that some knowledgeable (you might even say learned) posters on this thread have to lower themselves to constantly questioning and posting explanatory messages and views to the handful of hardcore conspiracy nuts who've made this thread their new sounding board.

You waste countless hours of your time, bang your head against a brick wall, try to counteract remorseless lies and dross being posted by clearly ignorant people, and end up being totally frustrated because it's impossible to penetrate the thick skinned defences of a crazed conspiracy theorist - who will keep pushing their fantastical claims even in the face of overwhelming proof against them.

Far better to move on to other threads with more sane posters, as I have, and leave the fantasists and deluded on here to back-slap each other in their own ignominy.

Cheerful S

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118866301#Comment_118866301

Repeating ourselves about what Putin aims are for Ukraine. We have to “agree to disagree,

This is complete nonsense I admire America and has contributed to the prosperity of many places around the world.That doesnt mean you cannot criticise their overseas policies.

The Iraq war absolutely based on a lie and the intelligence was faked, Least Putin justification got some truth to it. Where is the world genuine upset that Iraq was attacked over a plane operation that was carried out by Saudi nationals???. Twilight zone / western politics they bombed and invaded another country in the middle east that never attacked them???

Putin got the right to order his military overrun Ukraine further ( dont agree with that) but lets be real, Ukraine was acting stupid here and refusing to deal with Russia directly. West arming Ukraine only shown what the Nato aim was all along. Where else in the world does Nato give weapons like this to the opposite side. I think its scary stuff that Russia and Nato are this close to each other and with one wrong mistake we could be in full blown war with them. Forget about thousands of lives lost we talking millions and millions not billions depends on what effect a nuclear war has on our planet system

Russian performance here is unknown. You believe all western intelligence reports are genuine, They’ve captured almost the entire southern coast of Ukraine ( how is that a military failure) never explained this to me? Russian troops have encircled important cities like Kharkiv. US was in Afghanistan for twenty years and couldnt hold back the Taliban and yet expected here Russia would destroy a nato equipped European army in a week? Month of fighting only., this is not Putin first rollercoaster his well aware what happens Chechen Wars gave him experience. The problem is the western leaders dont understand why putin not carrying out a total war like they would and think Russia failing but it maybe Russia engaging in slow war to keep ukraine intact.

Cheerful S

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118866357#Comment_118866357

Talking about Russia using the hypersonic missile. Think this is Russia telling the west to stop the arm shipments or we hit your shipments with advanced weaponry. Russia never declared war against Europe. US and Europe could bring us to full scale war with Russia over Ukraine. Missile a warning that they will use hypersonic missiles to evade Nato air batteries and hit shipments. This not Afghanistan 1979 US rolling out the same playbook as Russia seen all before though.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118866512#Comment_118866512

I am not agreeing to disagree. You clearly have no interest in facts, your only interest is rationalising a version of the war to yourself that corresponds to your fringe world views.

Russia's general performance is known. In terms of causing the whole country to collapse, they have failed, in terms of regime change, they've failed, in terms of securing any major city, they've failed. They have claimed to have destroyed the Ukrainian air-force, they haven't, in fact much of it remains intact. It hasn't been a week, it's been 5 weeks and they are retreating from multiple areas. They are selling that retreat as a story that they are focusing on "objectives" and you have already bought it hook line and sinker.

This could end in a month, it could go on for months/years, but Russia absolutely did not "plan" on this situation, it didn't "plan" on losing 10,000 soldiers in a month, or 2,000 tanks, IFVs, trucks, jets, helicopters. They have admitted they didn't think that central bank assets would be blocked, that the sanctions would go as far as they have. One thing is for sure, you'll continue to cheerlead them on regardless of what happens, all the while paying lipservice to the pretence that you aren't ;)

Cheerful S

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118866386#Comment_118866386

Head back to the thread where people love to have WW3 with Russia, sane place.

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118866386#Comment_118866386

Nah, cause that's how conspiracy theories fester and grow sometimes.

People linkdump shite for other gullible people to find. Those people find this stuff and then go down rabbit holes, that basically also turns them into spambots.

However, when these posters get challenged and called out, it makes it harder for them to infect more people.

Someone isn't going to see Cheerful's posts and think "wow, he's really owning these doubters. I'm going to try and learn more from these twitter dumps."

They see how dishonest, ignorant and silly it all is.

Likewise when @CalamariFritti tried to post something that sounded cool as a vague, open ended question:

 So when that theatre in Mariupol was taken it was 300 people killed. Notice the difference? It wasn't 300 civilians killed but 'people'. So do you think the difference in language is accidental? What do you think probably happened there?

Notice how quickly he dodged away and backtracked when this question is dug into and explored to it's logical conclusion. Notice how silly it looks now that it was shown to be false by @[Deleted User] with presumably a few seconds of googling.

Someone who might have fallen for the cool, gotcha question isn't likely to fall for it now. It was very easy to do.

On top of that, I think that when posters do take the time to outline why claims are false, like what @Dohnjoe does with Cheerful, the posts are very informative and entertaining.

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118866609#Comment_118866609

How long you think before he starts claiming that the Russians were never planning to focus on the east, they were planning on staying there fighting a war for months or years...?

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118866668#Comment_118866668

I can't wait. In an earlier comment they said that if Ukraine didn't hand over Crimea/Donbas, then Russia would take Ukraine. Interesting how Cheerful has changed that view so quickly.

I have no idea what's going to happen next, perhaps Russia pulls something off, perhaps a deal is reached, perhaps it goes on for months and months, the difference with posters like cheerful is that they operate to a self-made narrative built off tiny pieces of the truth. Like Putin they take an ounce of truth and build a mountain of nonsense out of it.

Almost as entertaining as the 911 stuff.

Fathom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118866548#Comment_118866548

Military supplies have been crossing the Ukraine border from Poland for months before the Russian invasion, as provided by the USA and its NATO allies. Why did the Russians begin attacking western Ukraine 4 to 5 weeks after invading Ukraine? Seems to be a bit short sighted strategically, unless they are now preparing to roll into the west? Including the southwest on an attempt to capture the Black Sea port of Odesa?

Another reason why western Ukraine has been attacked late in the Russian campaign may be due to the fact that they did not have an invasion point in the west, unlike the south, east, and north from where they had their pretend war games while mobilizing for the invasion.

Putin has also called for another wave of conscripts, which could be called in as a reserve force to refurbish existing Russian invaders, as well as to support a southwestern sweep of Ukraine. Furthermore, I do not listen much to what comes out of Putin’s mouth; rather watch what his military is actually doing as best I can, given the uncertainty of the clouds of war.

Cheerful S

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118866609#Comment_118866609

Your facts got on CNN and Sky News.

Is it lie Russia is practically in full control of the entire South coast of Ukraine?? Putin said during his special operation speech that the main aim of the war was to demilitarise the Ukrainian army in the east to protect the Donbas and Luhansk regions.

Where Putin main army now- in the east and south his army where Putin send them to be, and there achieving the goals Putin set for them everyday..

Forces loyal to Russia also came through Belarus and Chernihiv on way to Kyiv this seems to be a separate operation. What actually happened here is still unknown- someday the truth may come out and your truth c end up right ( speculation not facts) truth maybe Putin did not have enough force to take Kyiv. Strategy all long was just to produce pressure on the city and Zelensky have to hand Putin what he needed.,

Your version Russia had 100,000 troops heading to kyiv and Russia was stopped by Ukraine. Its the only explanation.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118835819#Comment_118835819

Just reading through this thread, as I gave it a wide berth until now. but just want to highlight the above post and, in particular, the following sentence:

Russia for I can tell has reported honestly about the capture of land inside Ukraine. If Russia people say Mariupol fallen, I believe them till it's shown otherwise

Forgiving, for a second, the pidgin English used to compose this sentence and the appalling grammatical, spelling, syntax and composition errors involved, this is actually a breathtakingly stupid and naive take on things. I mean, I can't believe it hasn't already been challenged.

You, a self-confessed 'truther' who doesn't believe the official story on anything, from the Holocaust to building 7 to NIST......the whole shebang, you don't put faith in any of it and have previously exhorted others to ignore ANYTHING that comes from mainstream sources and to question EVERYTHING..........you're telling me that you believe Russian State propaganda in relation to a war they started, are actively engaged in and have tried to convince everyone that it's not a war and they're trying to liberate the people of Ukraine........despite the fact they were massing tanks, troops and heavy armor at their borders for weeks beforehand in advance of this 'special operation...not a war, repeat not a war" and claiming they weren't going to invade.....before invading..............and you're taking them at their word?

Are you having a fcuking laugh?

Cheerful S

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118866702#Comment_118866702

Your post highlights the badness of the US and Nato and they are belligerent actors. Miitary shipment coming in by way of Poland is this not proof of what Putin saying? I dont remember Putin issuing a declaration of war against Nato, but Nato seems to have decided on it, even though Ukraine not even a member.

Western side attacks are just warnings like that base near Poland. There was foreign mercenaries training there and equipment was stored there.

Putin going to expand the war ( evidence will need to be shown) he use the professional army. He replace the units go to Ukraine with conscripts stay in Russia. Secure his own borders and defences internally.  

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118866735#Comment_118866735

Actually I don't watch CNN or Sky News. I get my news from a variety of sources from European outlets, Middle Eastern outlets, I check Russian news from time to time (mainly for this) and also follow some US outlets (even Fox just to see what the nuts are saying). For this war I am also following independents, freelancers and analysts.

People with faulty views that aren't based on reality are forced to attack the facts, because those facts contradict their narratives. If these facts are coming from journalists and reporters, then people like yourself and Alex Jones attack the media as a whole, branding it as "Western media" or "mainstream media", dismissing the entire thing. Which is completely absurd. Notice how often you are forced to do it. Practically every post, that should give you some idea.

On the flipside, you will regurgitate from dodgy sources, parrot from Russian propaganda sites, etc.

As for your last sentence, it's not "my version" (and I never said anything about 100k troops heading to Kyiv). The info doesn't come from me. You keep indirectly revealing you are making all this up as you go along.

Cheerful S

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118866806#Comment_118866806

..................... are you having a laugh with your dots.

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118866833#Comment_118866833

Lol. What a pathetic, cowardly response to the point he's making.

Fathom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118866735#Comment_118866735

Putin’s heavy attacks and attempts to capture the Capitol flies in the face of the oversimplified notion that his only goals were to occupy south and east Ukraine, along with demilitarization of Ukraine, and the elimination of the tiny neo-nazi groups (e.g., the size of these tiny groups in Ukraine would be dwarfed by the size of those in USA today).

To reiterate, a more likely observation may be that he expected his military to quickly overwhelm the Capitol defenders, and then replace the government with puppets. Then call a quick end to his war. He and several of his dead generals underestimated the defending Ukraine military and their armed and fighting “Human shield” citizens. Today’s Russian talking points from Tass and other kremlin controlled media sources are now attempting historical revisionism to save face for the overblown image of Russian military power.

Reminds me of the movie fictional plot of the Russia House, but now applied to Putin’s Russia. Overblown Russian military (excuse the plot pun).

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118866833#Comment_118866833

The fact that you're also a complete hypocrite when it comes to matters surrounding grammar and punctuation is completely unsurprising. Cowardly is right. Care to address any of the points raised? Or are you too confused by all the dots?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118866548#Comment_118866548

Russia never declared war against Europe. US and Europe could bring us to full scale war with Russia over Ukraine. 

LOL.........If a burglar breaks into your elderly neighbour's house and starts beating the sh1t out of them, and you step in to assist, then you're the aggressor.........I've heard it all now.

For the record, Russia never declared war on anyone in this conflict, remember? There is no war. How could the US and Europe drag us into it if it doesn't exist?

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118866813#Comment_118866813

Trying to wrap my head around this one.

Ukraine is no threat to Russia, there's no "genocide" or "nuclear weapons" or any of that. Putin has illegally annexed territory from it, and sparked a proxy war in the country's East. As well as conducting hybrid warfare against Ukraine for 8 years.

So when it finally comes to Putin black/white invading Ukraine, that's validated, because other countries have supplied Ukraine with defensive weapons? Am I right so far?

Also, when Hitler wanted to attack Poland, he used the excuse that Poland had a defensive alliance with Britain and France, that the defensive alliance was "threatening" Germany (lol), so he had to invade. Wait, Ukraine wasn't even in a defensive alliance. Ah but it was thinking of joining one. That validates Putin's invasion also?

Just to get all this straight.

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118867021#Comment_118867021

But if Ukraine joined NATO, then Putin wouldn't have been able to invade it...

Fathom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118866813#Comment_118866813

The major point that you and Tass continues to avoid when attempting historical revisionism is that the Russian war mobilization was poorly hidden by war games on the Ukraine borders for the USA and NATO to see for months. President Biden kept pointing to the Russian mobilization about Ukraine. It was so obvious, especially after the earlier Russian invasion and annexation of Crimea in 2014. Only a leader like Brit Chamberlain prior to similar actions by Germany leading to WW2 would be fooled by Hitler then, or Putin today.

The USA, after Putin loving Trump lost reelection, saw it coming and began to increase its military spending for Ukraine. NATO woke up when Putin invaded, realizing that they may be next after Ukraine was taken, as USSR era raised KGB Putin attempts to reclaim the old Russian empire.

To call the actions of the USA prior to the Russian invasion as a conspiracy theory motive is laughable after the Russian Crimea war and annexation precursor, and the recent war games farce in anticipation of Putin’s obvious mobilization and invasion.

Cheerful S

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118866887#Comment_118866887

Putin’s intention was to take all of Ukraine why wait eight years to do it? Minsk 2 was signed in 2014.

Dohnjoe revision of WW2 history Hitler never keep his word for more than a few months. Hitler never cared for treaties he attacked Poland knowing he’d be at war against the powers of Europe. Putin army waited a very long time for war.

Regards Kyiv. I dont know the full picture- dont have a seat at his war cabinet meetings, either do you guys, It's all speculation about what happened.

There are different scenarios

Russia used Kyiv to keep Ukraine forces bogged down and stop them from helping the armies down further in the east and south

Russia was attempting to just encircle the city and frighten the leadership after the war started.

Version may be true .

Russian forces with bad direction went too far ahead and got caught in ambushes and lost armor and men. It stalled the entire advance coming in from Belarus and heading west to Kyiv..

Reality is there two events happening inside Ukraine war in the south and east and that unique operation outside Kyiv.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118866813#Comment_118866813

Russia already invaded one part of Ukraine after their puppet got ousted. For the last year there's been increasing indications that Russia intended to invade Ukraine. Not seeing any badness in providing Ukraine with weapons to defend itself. Can you point to when Ukraine agreed to not have a military or the right to defend itself?

You're painting everyone else as the aggressor except for the invaders... Also Russia has been providing propaganda for Neo Nazis with troll farms and the likes for the last decade. Their preferred president for the US is the guy who is actively sympathetic towards Neo Nazis.

On top of that you've actively downplayed the fact that the Wagner group are Neo Nazis, literally named because of the founders admiration for the Nazis. Ignored the fact that they are viewed as an unofficial wing of the Russian state.

Care to share what sites you are using for news around the conflict btw? What sources do you view as credible? What do you think of the fact that Russia literally poisoned the peace negotiation team?

Cheerful S

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2019/09/04/the-hardcore-russian-neo-nazi-group-that-calls-ukraine-home/

Its a putin lie remember.

From the article. Bit of wake up call that Putin supported by the far right even in Russia.

A self-styled “elite neo-Nazi avant-garde” 

As we wrote in our previous investigation, Wotanjugend has its roots in the early-2000s neo-Nazi music scene in Russia. Its leaders and members, according to the authors of Militant Right-Wing Extremism in Putin’s Russia: Legacies, Forms and Threats, “styled themselves as an elite neo-Nazi avant-garde.” 

Many Russian far-right nationalists have, perhaps to the surprise of many, been anti-Kremlin and opposed Putin’s rule due to their perception of his soft stance on issues like immigration, best seen in the annual “Russian March”. While a large portion of the Russian far-right was instrumental in fomenting and fighting in the ongoing war in eastern Ukraine, some factions of the Russian far-right actually supported the protests on Maidan Nezalezhnosti in Kyiv that mushroomed into the February 2014 revolution and have found room to operate within Ukraine. This included two of Wotanjugend’s leaders, Ivan Mikheev and Alexey Levkin. 

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118867231#Comment_118867231

Strange, where am I revising history?

You keep claiming throughout this thread that one of the objectives is the South, okay, what is that objective exactly..

The Russian military sits in hostile territory, with a determined enemy and surrounded by resentful local residents and .. ?

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118867253#Comment_118867253

This is not the Putin lie, the Azov brigade is well known about. It's a volunteer brigade bankrolled by a Ukrainian Jew, created for to fight in the war in the East of Ukraine in 2014. It contains far-right members. It likely only exists because Russia was proxy invading the country (Ukraine forces were in a dire situation in 2014+)

The Putin lie is using an ounce of truth (there's one far-right brigade in Ukraine) to build a mountain of propaganda (Ukraine must be invaded to be 'DeNazified') which is garbage. You are doing precisely the same thing.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118867253#Comment_118867253

I don't think anyone is disputing that there are Neo Nazis are in Ukraine. As there are in Russia and even the likes of the Wagner group which you have taken to defending. Btw, Bellingcat also has an article on their front page on how Russian Neo Nazis are incredibly in favour of the invasion.

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/rest-of-world/2022/03/11/male-state-the-russian-online-hate-group-backing-putins-war/

Not only that, they reiterate how closely the Wagner group is connected to the Russian government. I view Bellingcat as highly credible btw but you seem to only be accepting the reports that suit you. Seems to be a complete lack of denazification in Russia...

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2020/08/14/pmc-structure-exposed/

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118867339#Comment_118867339

And Bellingcat were the team who helped discover key information about the poisoning of the Skripals and Russian involvement. Also how Nemtsov was followed by the FSB prior to his assassination. They are also covering the usage of cluster munitions by Russia during it's invasion.

Stuff that makes Putin apologists uncomfortable basically.

I'm finding it sort of hilarious that he's being so pick n mix with a highly credible investigative organisation...

Cheerful S

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118867339#Comment_118867339

Read these articles or just they look good for your side on first impressions.

Read the article you see this headline.

They were banned and designated as extremist by a Russian court in October 2021. But Male State — the online gang of racists, homophobes and misogynists Bellingcat investigated last year

In October 2021, Male State was designated an extremist organisation in Russia, and its activities in the country were banned.

Despite stating at the time that they would appeal the ruling, as of March 2022 Male State remains officially banned in Russia.

Second article by bellingcat about Yevgeny Prigozhin who not a Neo Nazi. This is the guy i told Dohnjoe is the founder of Wagner.