Did the USA play a significantly negative role in events leading to Ukraine invasion?

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118783301#Comment_118783301

He milked the "there's something going on with Covid" to death, so now he's switched to "there's something going on with this war". He's fast becoming the new Alex Jones, have a look.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118783397#Comment_118783397

Well you're not engaging in discussion about what you posted. You choosing to engage in argument, in all the other stuff. Simple solution to that is to put the posters who just argue with you on ignore. Then engage with whomever is left.

Alternatively if you prefer to just engage with people who agree with you. There other forums that were set up when boards was down, might be of more interest. Some of those at least have a functioning forum software. Unlike this heap. But they tend to be very conspiracy focused. Perhaps because those posters have been shot down here.

I may not agree with you. But there are alternatives, thats all.

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118783406#Comment_118783406

Rumor is that Alex Jones might be appearing on his show soon.

Drumpot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118783434#Comment_118783434

I am happy to engage people who don't throw baseless accusations around. I have had to spend most of the time addressing peoples accusations on my motives.

How many times do I have to say that I dont know alot about the history of the conflict. I am not in a position to challange people here or people like John Mearshimer. Since the people attacking me personally know it all and are so infuriated with my gall to start such a thread, I am doing us all a favour and leaving you to your echo chamber.

CalamariFritti

This is hardly a conspiracy theory although I can understand how one might want to pose the question from that starting point considering the hysterics currently going on across western media social and mainstream.

Anyone thinking that the Russian government simply has 'gone crazy' out of nowhere and were about to rampage across Europe if allowed is either completely ignorant or is deliberately acting stupid with an agenda.

Ultimately its about power and resources and poor Ukraine and her people are just a pawn in this game. The current Russian government - or Putin if you like - stand in the way of western multinationals ransacking the vast resources Russia has. So this big game of chess is being played and the Ukraine is a pawn that has been moved too far forward and will now have to be sacrificed.

As per usual the regular folks will pay the awful price. Whether that's the poor Ukrainians paying with their relative wealth, health and safety and even their lives or us who are going to get screwed over with regards to jobs, inflation, quality and way of life. Its the small people who will pay for the games of the big guys. Always have been.

But to finally just answer the question. Yes Russia is the aggressor in this fight but they're hardly the only ones in this game. It has Americas dirty mitts written all over it.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118783478#Comment_118783478

stand in the way of western multinationals ransacking the vast resources Russia has.

Putin and his cronies have already done that.

CalamariFritti

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118783489#Comment_118783489

Correct and that's what it's all about. It was either them or the western ones and Putin made sure its at least their own gangsters getting the loot and not the foreign ones.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118783532#Comment_118783532

I think you missed the point. Putin is one of those gangsters. the invasion of Ukraine is nothing to do with protecting russian resources. Putin wants to put Russia back where it was 30 years ago. He tried to do that politically with Ukraine and failed. Now he is trying it the way russia knows best. though seemingly they don't know it as well as they thought it did.

CalamariFritti

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118783569#Comment_118783569

Well I don't know. I don't want get dragged into a tit for tat, but you may want to read what is and was being said officially for years and years. Russia has actually been pretty consistent between what is being said and what is being done.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118783584#Comment_118783584

you're right, Russian has consistently said that Ukraine is rightfully part of Russia. What other lies do you believe?

CalamariFritti

Like I said I'm not getting dragged into a stupid argument in this climate but your tone hardly make me want to change my mind does it? I believe my lies you believe yours...

silliussoddius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118783569#Comment_118783569

It's hilarious that the people who rail against the elites try to defend Putin and his kleptocracy.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118783618#Comment_118783618

so you believe that russia invaded ukraine to protect it citizens? Please tell me you are not that naive?

CalamariFritti

I believe that Putin invaded the Ukraine for the reasons stated. If you really want to know what they are just read one of the official communiques, his speech from February 21 is a good start. Yes they have their own exaggerated vocabulary but the gist comes through well enough.

I'm not defending him or Russia btw, they're as bad and cynical as the rest of them. I'm just answering the OPs question as to the why.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118783656#Comment_118783656

"both sides". only one side invaded a democratic country and is now shelling women and children.

goldenmick

@CalamariFritti Yes Russia is the aggressor in this fight but they're hardly the only ones in this game. It has Americas dirty mitts written all over it.

@CalamariFritti - I don't want get dragged into a tit for tat, but...

@CalamariFritti - Like I said I'm not getting dragged into a stupid argument in this climate but...

Just like a good operatic singer that builds to the crescendo at the end (think Nessun Dorma), you oddballs sprout up all over Boards... starting off in a low, dulcet tone (think Nessun Dorma again) and ever so slowly raising the tempo (think Nessun Dorma yet again), until the finale (Nessun Dorma brilliant finale) - which is when you finally expose your true self.

All your but, but, buts are similar tactics used a thousand times by other deluded posters on this site. To you (and them), can you not understand that whatever the rights and wrong, and whatever the levels of USA interference in Ukraine that people like you wish to convince themselves has taken place, it in no way justifies the slaughter of thousands of innocent civilians by Putin's army. So shouldn't you be using your keyboard exertions in sympathy for them, rather than your but, but, buts in defence of him.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118783478#Comment_118783478

"Western media" is in "hysterics". This is a line Putin uses daily. Prior to the war he accused the "West" of hysteria that a war would occur. That war did occur. What do you mean by this exactly?

Also, you claim that "Western multinationals" want to ransack Russia, and that Putin is somehow standing up to it, again, what do you mean?

Cheerful S

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118782822#Comment_118782822

Ukraine is a split nation with a pro-west and pro-Russia side. What is funny about this area of the world the west claims Ukraine is an independent nation. How can be independent when the pro-west side overthrew the Russian pro side? There was a pro-west faction with weapons taking over buildings in Kyiv.

Hypocrisy ok to topple governments when they're on our side of the fence. Plenty of evidence of Washington officials had contact with the pro-west groups to do a revolution and then openly discussing who should lead the government in Ukraine. Putin was not wrong during the revolution far-right Svoboda party played a huge part in organizing the coup. Even the pictures show the Azov battalion engaged in battles with Russian separatists and there carrying Nazi flags with them to battle. Their combat symbol was even Nazi.

The western papers and media claim it's a false narrative but the reality is very different, remember back then some soldiers of AZOV proudly took pictures on the frontlines with the red swastika flags in the background. A lot of units that were sent in the beginning to prevent the regions from rebellion were Azov.

Happened in Crimea a reaction to an overthrow of their side. West doesn't see anything with coups as long their people take power. This is what lead to all this mess. Ukraine's new pro-west government didn't act rationally and see a revolution would upset the dynamics. Going to change the government by a revolution have accept that some things may change? Provide special status to areas that were very pro Russia. Instead, Ukraine decided to bring Donbas to its knees by force, and the reaction they got back was fierce.  

King Mob

Again it's important to point out that cheerful is a holocaust denier. He believes that the holocaust is being inflated by a Jewish conspiracy. And in the course of expressing this belief, he has excused and minimized actual nazi crimes and cited and defended actual neo-nazis and proven antisemitism.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118786017#Comment_118786017

This is complete gobbledygook. Whether it's the Holocaust, or a significant event, you just make up your own version of it, which changes depending on what day of the week it is.

Cheerful S

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118787419#Comment_118787419

Based on facts. You don't want to hear it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUgKTfe-IqA&ab_channel=UnHerd

@Cheerful S

Ah yes, linking to unheard the most reputable of news outlets. Shall we ignore how Yanukovych was literally Russia's puppet? Or how the Wagner group which are viewed as a wing of the Russian government have been sent to kill Zelensky chose their name due to admiration of the third Reich? Sounds pretty neo Nazi to me.

Do you agree that Zelensky is a drug addled neo Nazi? @Cheerful S

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118791775#Comment_118791775

a bit more to it than just their name

https://en.respublica.lt/signs-of-neo-nazi-ideology-amongst-russian-mercenaries

starkid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118782598#Comment_118782598

i suppose that justifies Putin killing opposition, journalists, overseeing a system against lgbt rights. And of course justifies Russia killing Ukranian men, women and children.

I mean from Putins point of view yeah its a threat. but **** Putin and his deranged point of view. a ̈normal¨ democratic Russia is good for the whole World. if you are against that you are pro the above. Russia for all intents and purposes hasn´t been normal since they pulled out of the first World War. its been 100 years of menacing threat including the ribbentop deal. only for NAzi idiocy and hatred for communism did they join the allies.

You can rage against US imperialism and their geopolitical/geographical luck but it will change nothing. the World order is slowly changing anyway and America is slowly losing its uncontested hegemonic power.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118790856#Comment_118790856

Youtube video from fringe online cranks who get clicks from people like you. This is why you are on this forum going on about 9/11 and Holocaust denial and all that.

CalamariFritti

Whatever about the wrongs of this war but you're not exactly rallying behind some shining example of democratic values. This nazi stuff isn't just made up you know. The rose tinted glasses are strong in here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118794669#Comment_118794669

Is there a reason you aren't addressing any of the points or questions put to you?

That Battalion represents around 0.1% of Ukrainian armed forces and reservists. Ukraine actually has one of the lowest political representations of the far-right in Europe. Russia has it's own far-right paramilitary group under Putin, the Wagner group (Hitler's favorite composer) which is literally headed by a Neo-Nazi, it's far larger than the Azov battalion.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and presume you didn't know any of this.

CalamariFritti

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118794808#Comment_118794808

I was looking forward to see how the Azov battalion would be spinned away.

They're only part of the Ukrainian national guard. Probably just an oversight of the Ukraine government who sure are going to be otherwise totally liberal and sound.

Is there a reason you aren't addressing any of the points or questions put to you?

Yes there is

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118794833#Comment_118794833

Okay, so the mask fully slips.

You claimed that "Western multinationals" were going to "ransack" Russia, can you explain that?

Likewise your comment about the Western media being "hysterical", what do you mean exactly?

CalamariFritti

You know exactly what I mean. You're just looking for someone you can do your self appointed angry-mob-spokesperson act with. I'm not available for that.