Did the USA play a significantly negative role in events leading to Ukraine invasion?

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118794937#Comment_118794937

Okay. It's coming across like posters can't question your claims or views.

Up to you, it you aren't here for discussion, then I guess nothing to discuss

Cheerful S

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118792935#Comment_118792935

It's not a conspiracy argument, not even a fringe youtube channel. They debate current affairs and the channel has a positive mainstream reputation. There position if you listen to some of the talk from Putin is not accurate!!

But there honest also a state west is playing down facts. Azov battalion is a neo-Nazi far-right group now fighting Russian forces around Mariupol.

Their leader said the purpose of the Azov group quote Biletsky said was to “lead the white races of the world in a final crusade … against Semite-led Untermenschen [inferior races]”

The Ukrainian government has never distanced itself from Azov. They're part of the armed forces and still stand by the WW2 SS Nazi insignia wear. Even this video shows a recent picture of them with British advisors providing them with Nato anti-tank armor missiles, You guys are very tolerant of this stuff and go on about the Jewish Holocaust and people wrongs for deliberating it. But very happy to support a regime that bolsters White Nationalists who are armed up today with Nato Weapons. 

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118796089#Comment_118796089

But cheerful, you are a holocaust denier.

What do you think these white nationalists and neo nazis believe about the Holocaust?

What about the white nationalists and neo nazis who you used as sources and references and who you defended in the process of you defending your holocaust denial? Are those chaps alright?

Your outrage here is total hypocrisy.

Cheerful S

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118794833#Comment_118794833

Spin it. I have been on here long enough. They ignore all marches with Nationalists with burning torches too. The same happened in America they knew what all that meant there!!!

Cheerful S

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118791775#Comment_118791775

Yanukovych was elected president in 2010, defeating Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko. The election was judged free and fair by international observers

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych

Uprising inside western countries will be stamped out, in a similar way. Riot police come out hard against it perhaps even using force, The pro-west side in Ukraine had firearms to force this change of government. They Stormed buildings and people ended up killed. 

 Accord with Putin is irrelevant as he's elected fairly according to the outside world. As president, his cabinet is allowed to make decisions for the country when elected fairly.  Wagner, a mercenary organization, hires ex-soldiers to fight. Comparable to blackwater from the United States. Russia not the only country that uses mercenaries to fight wars. Do I agree with it now, nope. Combatants for hire: more crimes against humanity likely to take place, especially as there is very little oversight to what they get up to, inside the combat region, 

Zelensky. I have no strong point of view about him. Just some thoughts. Fair play for staying around as it was probably true Russia was looking to take him out so he knows the risk to his life. He got genuine courage. I also think his demands are nonsense. No-fly zone over Ukraine would bring the world closer to nuclear holocaust. It’ll be a tragic thing if Ukraine accepts neutrality and accepts some of the regions can stay with Russia like Donbas and Crimea after signed a peace treaty, Could have avoided all this.  

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118796089#Comment_118796089

Nah, it's a tiny amount of Ukrainian armed forces, in a country that has virtually no far-right political representation.

Why do they tolerate a far-right brigade? Oh I don't know, something about a superpower invading their country by proxy for 8 years making them desperate for any volunteer groups.

Anti-Western critics and Putin supporters know they can no longer support Putin, so they do so indirectly by attacking Ukraine in any way possible acting all "concerned" about tiny or irrelevant issues.

Cheerful S

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118796350#Comment_118796350

Excuses for white nationalists are there for all to see now. They’re on my side, that’s the message you send.

What you cannot see is Azov are embedded with the main army their beliefs and ideas are spreading and victories by them will only increase their influence in the country, least on the military side.

What happens if Putin and Zelensky reach a compromise and Azov decides to not obey? You can have a potential civil war. Azov could recruit people who oppose the peace treaty.

Nazi party started off small and then gained more and more power. Putin was not lying literally Nazis in the army of Ukraine, but people like yourself are full of excuses as to why that’s justifiable, 

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118796429#Comment_118796429

And like clockwork you go off on your ramblings. You claim that "secret Nazi's" killed JFK, and that they were responsible for 9/11. You find out today that one battalion in Ukraine has some far-right members ... and you're off down your own rabbit hole of hysteria about Nazi's.

This will really blow your mind, Putin has a Neo-Nazi paramilitary group headed by the guy below, and it's a big group. Buuuut I guess you're going to be unconcerned with that because it doesn't involve your favorite "the good guys are secretly bad" narrative am I right ;)

Dohnjoe

Interesting how one country is literally the definition of 1984, an autocratic klepocracy, corrupt to the core, controls the media, controls the judificary, jackbooted police arrest protesters in an instant, murders political opponents and poisons them with nerve agent..

But conspiracy theorists don't seem to be the slightest bit interested in it. If anything they often defend it and reproduce it's propaganda at an incredible rate.

Cheerful S

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118796460#Comment_118796460

Showing me pictures with no context.

Who’s the guy and how do you know the same person?

Some background info be nice.

Markings on his body the first picture can be superimposed in by computer.

Need multiple pictures to confirm, what you be saying is true.

Cheerful S

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118796487#Comment_118796487

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0A2l8yptzqc&ab_channel=FlyingTheNest

I stay away from there looks like a bad place to visit?

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118796489#Comment_118796489

Context is in the thread. Wagner group.

Not sure what the point is, you accept or reject information based on whether it affirms whatever belief you have, nothing to do with it's veracity.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118796511#Comment_118796511

Looks good in that travel video, would you say Putin is misunderstood? According to you there are Nazi's in Ukraine, they were about to put NATO right up against Russia's borders, do you support Russia's current military operation?

Cheerful S

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118796521#Comment_118796521

You got nothing so and then post pictures of Putin is supporting Nazis?

Wagner leader is this guy. Looks nothing like that person in the photo.

https://thebell.io/en/how-to-distinguish-a-man-on-the-street-from-the-a-member-of-the-wagner-group/

Picture shown.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118796541#Comment_118796541

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmitry_Utkin

"Utkin has been alleged to have sympathies with the Third Reich by the Latvia-based Meduza and believed to be a neo-Nazi by the British NationalWorld. In 2022 images surfaced of Utkin purportedly showing Waffen SS collar tab and Reichsadler Eagle tattoos on his collar and chest.[10][11] Additionally, several prominent members of the Wagner group have been photographed or recorded in Nazi uniforms or taking part in re-enactments of WWII events. [12]"

"Almost immediately after returning to Russia, Utkin reportedly created his own mercenary group. Utkin, who reportedly has a passion for the history of the Third Reich,[16] had the call-sign Wagner, presumably in honour of Richard Wagner, Adolf Hitler's favourite composer.[15][17] Utkin and his "Wagner Group", as well as several veterans of the Slavonic Corps were seen both in Crimea in February 2014 and then in Donbas, where they fought for the pro-Russian separatists during the Russo-Ukrainian War.[18] Gazeta.ru reports that Utkin and his men could have been involved in the killing of several field commanders of the self-proclaimed Luhansk People's Republic.[19]"

It doesn't mean the entire mercenary group named after Hitler's favorite composer are "Nazi's". Just that some of them might have sympathies.

@Cheerful S

Also, I know @Cheerful S is trying to downplay how closely intertangled the Wagner group are with the Russian government, I assume it's simply not being willing to do some basic reading about them. They're generally viewed to be far from standard mercenaries to a point where they're effectively viewed to be an unofficial part of Russian defence department. This isn't simply some contractors and even if it were, you're fine with Neo Nazis being used to assassinate democratically elected representatives? Oh well, makes sense to be fair since you're good with invasions by the same guy.

https://www.csis.org/blogs/post-soviet-post/band-brothers-wagner-group-and-russian-state

You never answered my question btw cheerful, do you view Zelensky to be a drug addled anti semite? You have a long history of being an apologist for atrocious regimes by sheer virtue of being gullible btw. I assume other posters remember your odd views on North Korea.

Cheerful S

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118796534#Comment_118796534

Genuinely I determine the war a mistake. I can’t excuse any army murdering civilians.

Think the west, Ukraine, and Russia are all to blame.

The best outcome is negotiated peace for Ukraine and Russia and they reach the decision on their own. The West should leave them alone and let them sort it out behind closed doors. If the west just wants to punish Russia till they shatter, that’s dangerous for the world, they need to handle the situation correctly and talk with Russia about their security concerns. No Russian leader would have accepted Ukraine in Nato, just luckily was not some ultranationalist who decided to go in instead.

One crazy picture shows up in 2022 presenting some guy that may have a closeness to a guy mentioned by you? That's fishy don't you not think with all stuff happening right now? Bio seems poor like there is no real detail.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118796623#Comment_118796623

There have been reports about the Wagner group for years, they were also active in Syria and other places. Just because something is new to you doesn't mean it's only sprung up now.

As for your other points, I see the recently popular "equal weights" argument has appeared. How is Ukraine to blame for Russia's invasion?

Cheerful S

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118796609#Comment_118796609

Not downplaying Wagner I know precisely the work do for Russia. What’s amusing UK and US have comparable organizations that hire ex-soldiers. Somehow, to people here find it way more ominous if it concerns Russian soldiers!!

I don’t believe Putin knows this Utkin guy privately (their friends)--- that is if Uktin real person involved in the foundation of Wagner. Putin is pictured with Russian combat veterans all the time.

Deciding Putin based on one picture supports Neo Nazism for me is comical.

On the other side, the Ukrainian defense ministry provides protection and encouragement to white nationalists and is giving them Nato weapons. Azov hates all non-white- inferior races. Putin referring to the white nationalists of the Azov Battalion ( step his now talking about Denazification of the military of Ukraine)

What answer do you want? Zelensky is a Jewish man. Putin is an advocate for Israel. One reason Israel is very slow to create drama with Russia. Putin still today communicates with Israeli leaders on a host of matters that concern them both. Russia has even tolerated Israel strikes in Syria and the majority of them are against his Assad ally army in the region. 

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118797597#Comment_118797597

This being the same Israel you believe is behind a conspiracy to fake the numbers of people killed in the holocaust, right?

Fathom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118781422#Comment_118781422

Laswell’s impact analysis suggests Trump favored Putin over NATO and the EU. The “soccer ball gift” first public meeting between the two leaders spoke volumes. Compared with Trump shoving a European leader aside during a photo op. And since that first Trump Putin meeting, Trump continues to praise Putin. Frequently calling Putin a genius all the way up to the day of the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Did this Trump message to Putin encourage the current war?

Added to this, one of Trump’s impeachments had the arms for dirt on Biden scandal allegations centered about Ukraine. Did this encourage Putin to wage war?

Cheerful S

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118802276#Comment_118802276

The Maidan rebellion just stepped up the process of war. Thought Putin would invade, but it caught me off guard he carried it out so soon. I felt he’ll issue a strong ultimatum first to Ukraine and wait till Nato membership of Ukraine arrived.

Putin must admit has an unstable look when his talking today, something not quite right there. He was calmer with his hostility. and more composed before.

I don’t think, should test his limits. I think peace best way forward for everyone concerned. West is being very idiotic attempts to break Russia down to nothing, there are no jihadists that can wipe out easily and walk away untouched. Russia is threatening the west by hitting near Poland stop giving them from weapons or we hit the supply routes. That brings us closer to WW3

Putin cares about Russian national interests. Trump is not even a thought, really. 

Cheerful S

Mariupol: clashes between Azov ( white nationalists) and Chechnya fighters ( Islamists) clash of evil vs evil.

To be honest, Russia is winning despite what the entire western media is saying on social media and News, seeing play out again a big lie.

Mariupol is about to fall which will link Donbas with Kherson. The entire south front will belong to Russia than just a matter of encircling the cities all the way to Kyiv. Ukraine forces are surrounded that's way hold up in the cities, hold up in apartment blocks and streetways. There getting battered in the open. 

Ukraine forces are actually causing all this destruction because slows Russia down. Putin does want Ukraine cities to be destroyed.

Flinty997

He doesn't care about Russian interests. He cares about staying in power. The closer democracy gets to him the weaker his personal hold on power gets.

His actions are bringing Russia to it's knees, not just economically but also militarily. He's managed to bring together all his fragmented military opponents together and strengthened Nato enormously for decades in to the future. He's irrevocably damaged Russia economy for decades.

What ever he's doing is not for Russia.

Igotadose

Is it me, or are Cheerful's posts sort-of failing in the grammar department lately, as if, well, someone with English as a second language where their base language is a Slavic one?

This recently:

seeing play out again a big lie.

Mariupol is about to fall which will link Donbas with Kherson. The entire south front will belong to Russia than just a matter of encircling the cities all the way to Kyiv.

"...than just a matter of encircling the cities..." what?

earlier:

I felt he’ll issue a strong ultimatum first to Ukraine and wait till Nato membership of Ukraine arrived.

Not, "Ukraine joined Nato," but, "Nato membership of Ukraine arrived." Huh?

Perhaps there's a conspiracy of owners of Cheerful accounts, some from Russia.

Cheerful S

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118805329#Comment_118805329

I'm a GRU go tell your friends!!!!

Not the best map drawing, I have done but I am in rush not back on for day.

A rough idea of what Russia attempting to do. The blue circle where the Ukrainian army held up but Russia attempted to go around them at different sides and cut off any escape route. There slowly but getting there to cut the east and south U forces off from the north to help them. Russia is encircling to trap them in.

The red and black line is the future battle line when the south front falls to Russia.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118805363#Comment_118805363

Why do they have bad grammar or something?

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118805329#Comment_118805329

It doesn't matter if English isn't your first language. Gibberish is universal.

The problem with these threads is dogma. So they are pointless on a forum, as there is no discussion.

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118805279#Comment_118805279

Lol.

So Russia is being forced to shoot at all of these residential buildings? But it's actually Ukraine that's blowing them up?

Again mate, you can't just make up reality to align with your political views.

You can't just declare things to be true because you want them to be.

The Holocaust doesn't change because you dislike Jews or have sympathies for the Nazis.

The war in Ukraine doesn't change because you've been conned into thinking Putin is good.

Flinty997

He's killing people to liberate them from themselves. Makes sense.