You've been looking in the wrong direction, the dangers are coming from the right.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120086908#Comment_120086908

I linked to court transcripts in the Jan 6th thread.

Infiltration of Proud Boys, Oath Keepers etc is a fact.

I haven't come to any conclusions, I've said questions need to be asked.

FBI interfered with Hillary Clinton's campaign with timely leaks, helping get Trump elected. Then deciding they didn't like Trump after all and giving him non-stop legal grief for 4 years. What will they be at next?

FBI should get scrutiny.

growleaves

Try to really think instead of just falling into neatly pre-made partisan patterns.

@Igotadose I have seen you repeat talking points from the media word for word on this thread.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120086472#Comment_120086472

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120086504#Comment_120086504

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120086519#Comment_120086519

Who here is supporting any of these people?

The usual sensationalist nonsense from the looney left.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120086967#Comment_120086967

Just like communist regimes of the past are retroactively being reimagined as socialist utopias.

Next we'll be told the Gulags never existed and were made up by someone in a MAGA hat to discredit the left.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120086971#Comment_120086971

The danger still is coming from the right. And, despite what you might think, I don't follow your posts that closely. So, what is your best argument (not "I linked to something in some other thread") that defuses or otherwise refutes the argument that the threat's coming from the right? Or, do you agree, that it is? Seems pretty glaringly obvious.

Feel free to raise an FBI-needs-to-be-investigated thread somewhere. Or, write to Matt Gaetz and Jim Jordan, seems like they'll be getting up to that in the 118th Congress.

"Just asking questions" is well known CT technique; make your point, back it up. So, what is it? The threat's not coming from the right, it's coming from the FBI?

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120086128#Comment_120086128

Sensible centrists?

On what planet?

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120087068#Comment_120087068

I wasn't addressing you in the first place but another poster.

Go back to hiding in fear the Trumpstapo will come and take you away in the middle of the night.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120086971#Comment_120086971

Of course the FBI infiltrated Proud Boys. How better to access what it is they are planning and doing?

This is common law enforcement practice on pretty much every country worldwide.

But you think that they did this to direct the acts of Jan6th? On what basis? The proud boys were in direct contact with Roger Stone who actually advocated for violence.

Do you think undercover cops who infiltrate drug gangs are doing so to try to shift even more coke?

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120087156#Comment_120087156

They had high-ranking Federal agents and informers in place *before* Jan 6th.

If it is a scary fascist coup that might have succeeded (do you really believe that?) then why didn't they make arrests beforehand and shut it down.

In any case, I'm mainly just saying the FBI shouldn't float by without scrutiny of their actions.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120086967#Comment_120086967

Peru is and has been a shutshow for several years and is likely going to continue in this manner. Castillo acted in an attempt to prevent Congress impeachment him. Absolutely an attempt coup but the problems there are long way from being solely left wing. You should look in to it.

Also, western media is in no way overwhelmingly left wing. Rupert Murdoch has dominated both print and TV media for probably 40 years nearly now with massive consequences.

The most popular cable news channel, by a distance, in the US is right wing. Theres a handful of true left wing print outlets in the UK versus a whole range of right wing ones.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120087054#Comment_120087054

The communist regimes you are referring to, I imagine, were hijacked by dictators acting in their own interests. That is a weakness of the ideology that it leaves itself open to this happening (George Orwell may have written about this), but that is not the same as the motivations of fascism.

But again, as before, no one is advocating for communism here or denying the darker elements that did act under its name. It's a topic for a history thread more than this one anyway as lok ted out several times to you.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120087181#Comment_120087181

Because it wasn't just Proud Boys and the people who were planning it as a coup, Trumps circle and a few more, were only hoping that there was going to be significant disruption enough to convince Pence to revert to states to nominate electoral slates.

Nobody us saying it was well planned, just that it did get way closer to stopping proceedings than it should have done.

charlie_says

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120086504#Comment_120086504

Extreme position: bring in lots of unknown dependent people who are culturally different, perhaps not even speaking the same language, in an acute economic, housing and crime crisis. Bonus: many of them have what really are considered far right positions (Sharia law, extreme nationalism)

Many people believe the above is an extreme position. Can you show why it isn't an extreme position?

charlie_says

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120087127#Comment_120087127

As I said before I believe this:

Extreme position: bring in lots of unknown dependent people who are culturally different, perhaps not even speaking the same language, in an acute economic, housing and crime crisis. Bonus: many of them have what really are considered far right positions (Sharia law, extreme nationalism)

is an extreme position. Why do you think this not the case?

growleaves

@Tell me how 'The communist regimes you are referring to, I imagine, were hijacked by dictators acting in their own interests. That is a weakness of the ideology that it leaves itself open to this happening (George Orwell may have written about this)'

In the book within a book written by Emmanuel Goldstein in 1984 - which is a parody of Trotsky's The Revolution Betrayed - Orwell satirically implies that the main Communist revolutionaries of the past, or even all revolutionaries, are self-interested fakes and frauds.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120087309#Comment_120087309

Because there is zero evidence that those who have come have contained such ideals in any sort of significant numbers. Neither have they been found to have been members of extremists groups, or have coalescesed in to such a group enough for it to be seen as a common or expected occurrence.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120087221#Comment_120087221

Lol.

"Communist regimes only went bad when they were hijacked by dictators"

You just jumped the shark.

Funny how the Soviet Union found itself being hijacked by dictator after dictator.

Maybe the communist dogma was the real problem? No couldn't be, communism is a perfect ideology that only has one flaw, its uncanny ability to lead to mass death and misery and that's all the fault of the far right somehow.

Why should anyone entertain your assertion about the how "the dangers are coming from the right"?

The worst thing about this bizarre ideology of yours is that there's a plethora of people lining up to agree with it.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120087309#Comment_120087309

Welcoming refugees is not an extreme position.

Up until relatively recently the Irish migrating throughout the world fit into basically all of those descriptions.

bring in lots of unknown dependent people who are culturally different, perhaps not even speaking the same language, in an acute economic, housing and crime crisis. Bonus: many of them have what really are considered far right positions

Were countries accepting Irish emigrants 'extreme'?

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120087401#Comment_120087401

Trotsky from day one was a psychopathic mass murderer, Putin has a long way to go before he scratches the surface of people like Lenin or Trotsky and co. inflicted on people.

Stalin was not the Bolshevik Revolution being twisted, he was it's natural conclusion.

The ideology is a large part of the problem but the people who it appeals to are a bigger one.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120087401#Comment_120087401

So what?

I haven't advocated for communism, made excuses for it, or see it as relevant to this discussion.

Why do a few of you keep wanting to make this conversant it? It is close to irrelevant in the world in which most of us live.

Jack Daw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120087494#Comment_120087494

Countries where Irish Immigrants mainly went over the years were UK,USA,Canada,Australia and New Zealand all of whom shared the same language as ourselves and all of whom have similar cultural background.i.e Christian and European.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120087601#Comment_120087601

Er you said that Orwell might have said something like that, so I made a reference to a work by Orwell because you reminded me of it.

I wasn't trying to 'gotcha' you or imply anything about you, I just thought it would be interesting to share.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120087429#Comment_120087429

Why should anyone entertain your assertion about the how "the dangers are coming from the right"?

Because of the several 1000 word plus posts I have written explaining specifically and explicitly how this is the case.

While you counter it with trying to talk about historical events. And even when you do this, you fail to consider the evidence of individuals versus ideologies and how one extreme of the political spectrum promotes unacceptable and dictatorial behavior while the other is too weak to prevent it. Do you not see the difference there?

You're a constant poster on this thread complaining about a viewpoint that is clear, relevant and explained in detail and about which many other posters agree and virtually zero posters have managed to counter it in anything approaching a reasonable fashion.

And you yourself literally can't get within 40 years of the conversation. You should consider this point while taking some time to read the opening paragraph of the OP again.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120087620#Comment_120087620

If you told a protestant US colonist or their descendants in the 18th to mid 19th century that he had a 'similar cultural background' to an Irish or Italian etc immigrant they'd be looking to fight you.

Many Irish came off coffin ships with little, if any, English. Catholicism wasn't accepted at all and seen as extreme - loyalty to the pope over country etc

All the things that are being claimed about refugees to Ireland in that earlier post were said about the Irish. The world was much smaller and Irish were seen close to the bottom of it when it came to people countries were happy to accept.

Jack Daw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120087759#Comment_120087759

Irish people consciously adapted, they dropped their use of the Irish language fairly quickly for example.Also emigration to underpopulated countries in the 19th century is wholly different to emigration today.Most countries all over the world are over-populated and that should be the main reason controls on immigration should be implemented all over the world.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120087832#Comment_120087832

You literally said that you think all people from a particular background can be considered problematic because one person from that background killed 2 people.

And you are now claiming 'whataboutery'?

I should no better than having even wasted this much time on a new account.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120087647#Comment_120087647

Historical events?

Oh yes I forgot that community North Korea is actually a fascist state according to you.

Same goes for Communist China, another far right regime according to you.

You can post as many 1000 word post as you like, it makes no difference to the complete nonsense what you're saying actually is.

You're unwilling to listen to anything that doesn't suit you, so everything you don't like is explaind away in some preposterously nonchalant fashion.

You have no interest in listening to reason and make the most pathetic attempts to prop up your position, usually by making outlandish claims that have no basis in fact but everyone should disregard anything that counters your position that only "the right" is a source of problems in the world today.

Jack Daw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120088076#Comment_120088076

When was the last time an Evangelical Christians decided to kill scores of people in Europe because of their religious beliefs?

nullzero

Come to think of it, the central conceit of this thread is that people are "looking in he wrong direction" is ludicrous.

Nobody, myself included is in countering the OP's assertion by saying that the opposite of what they're proposing (that all the danger in the world is coming from the left and not the right) is the actual reality of the situation.

All I've done here is draw attention to the fact that danger exists in the world that originates in left wing ideology and even that act of proposing a more balanced idea is to the OP anathema.

To even suggest that there is some danger posed by left wing regimes like China or North Korea is too difficult for the OP to even contemplate acknowledging and they persist with pushing their beliefs as the truth.

Their beliefs are their truth, I and others opposing the OP aren't interested in truth we're interested in fact. That's the difference and its a glaring one.

Beasty

A number of posts deleted

Please note it is against site rules to discuss anything that is before the courts

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120088077#Comment_120088077

North Korea is a fascist state, or it's ruled by a fascist dictator at the very least.

I've never said China is right wing, it certainly is problematic, but not a problem that is negatively impacting the societies all of us live in.

Disagreeing with you and demonstrating how and why I do so, is not a case of being unwilling to listen, it's a case of not buying the deflection you're attempting to sell.

For someone with such a fervent dislike of the left, it should be thought provoking for you that you've to go to such extremes to try to find ways that left wing ideologies are genuinely negatively impacting us.

Russia from 30+ years ago, North Korea from your imagination and China from the other sideiof the planet are all you've brought to the table to counter the numerous real and present dangers from the right demonstrated here.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120088235#Comment_120088235

North Korea is literally a communist state.

Not a fascist state, it has never been a fascist state.

Your inability to understand this seems to know no bounds whatsoever.

McHardcore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120086971#Comment_120086971

JAQing off (Just Asking Questions) is a trope of the Fox News types at this stage. You are trying to make a wild accusation that the FBI and CIA were behind the January 6th riots acceptable by framing it as a question rather than a statement. Hiding this statement behind a "just asking questions" does not absolve you giving of the evidence to back this up either. You might be able to get the people over at https://www.boards.ie/categories/conspiracy-theories to help you there.

McHardcore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120088366#Comment_120088366

@tellmeabit is right, its a socialist economy but a fascist regime with a totalarian leader.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120088614#Comment_120088614

It's not a Fascist regime, it's Communist and proudly so.

It's a Maoist Communist State, like every Communist State that ever was or ever will be it's a murderous hell hole of poverty.

Up to the 90s you had radical Left in Ireland going visiting there. People spoke of the Soviet Union as an example, Cuba was a paradise, as always when the reality started to show, the line became that people like Stalin subverted the revolution, the totalitarian leader meme.

As if people like Trotsky and Lenin aren't up there with the most murderous leaders of the 20th C.

There are not 2 sides, there are one and both must be closely watched.

Fascism and it's older, rougher brother Communism both only offer death and degradation.

People find it distasteful that only one of the farleft/far right family should be looked because so many on the left have never cleaned house of the psychotic views, values and people of many on the Left.

As the left becomes increasingly middle class, it is once again becoming more ideological,aloof and insane. That has always led to problems.

So the challenge for much of the radical left is to prove to people that they have changed, that there are now differences between them and the far right, differences in how people would be under them.

What baffles many people about this thread is that many of the people on it going on about the far right are not the type of people any would want in power, the type that always lead such societies to its inevitable conclusion and suddenly we have to pretend that they are concerned for Society.

A plague on their joint House.

Igotadose

Please stop saying "People" when you mean "The voices in my head tell me"

And those calling out the far right would be bad to have in charge, but you'd be o.k. to have in charge? Is that what you're saying?

The threats coming from the far right, nothing you've posted changes that one bit.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120088675#Comment_120088675

North Korea is proudly nothing because none of its people are free to speak. It is a dictatorship that pretends to be communist to protect said dictator.

And once again, all this does is verify the premise of the OP and the thread title.

Last night, Tucker Carlson, (most watched TV show on cable news in US) praised the Brazilians who stormed their government buildings and he also said their most recent elections were clearly stolen.

Last week we saw Jan 6th insurrectionists bend McCarthy over a barrel live on CSPAN as they gained quasi control of the house agenda. In the UK the government is telling nurses they should work harder if they want a payrise.

Putin's invasion of Ukraine is continuing in Eastern europe.

One of the impacts of rampant capitalism is being experienced by thousands of tourists who have traveled to various ski resorts to be met with brown slopes devoid of snow as the damage to climate continues to reveal itself.

@nullzero and a handful others should probably visit the history forum as that what they want to focus on their interpretation of history as they turn a blind eye to the events causing real harm today and those whose ideals are largely behind them.

Tell me how

Worthwhile reading the second letter here and taking note of who sent it in.

The motivations of Putin over several years, the overlap with power brokers in the UK (and what their focus was on) and the impact of Brexit all influential and also all things flagged on Boards discussions across various topics and dismissed by some of those contributing here who said such views were baseless and nonsense.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120088614#Comment_120088614

Totalitarianism isn't exclusively right wing.

That's where you're getting confused.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120088695#Comment_120088695

I don't follow what you're saying tbh.

My point is that the right isn't the only source of danger in the world. This is self evident to anyone who isn't serving your belief system.

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120087494#Comment_120087494

You talk about Irish immigrants “up until relatively recently” and in subsequent posts back up your claims by mentioning those coming off coffin ships 170 years ago!

Were Irish immigrants “dependent” for a prolonged period of time? No.

Relatively recent Irish immigrants mainly went to Britain and America in the 1950s, 1980s. They were not so culturally different. Democracies, majority Christian, English speaking, rule of law etc and overwhelmingly spoke the same language.

There were more questions asked of immigrants arriving in Ellis Island from 1913 than are asked of arrivals in this country today.

This idea that one simply arrived in the US and went on ones merry way is incorrect.

McHardcore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120089763#Comment_120089763

Never said it was?

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120090462#Comment_120090462

You implied it. Or at least appeared to.

Can you acknowledge the historical and contemporary problems posed by the far left?

McHardcore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120090513#Comment_120090513

Nope, I neither implied it or tried to give the appearance that I implied it (?).

Are there any other points that I didn’t make that you want to debate?

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120091093#Comment_120091093

If you want to get snotty I can go into greater depth here.

You said "@tellmeabit is right, its a socialist economy but a fascist regime with a totalarian leader", this was in reference to a post made by the OP (Incidentally they are called Tellmehow and not "tellmeabit") in which they stated that North Korea was in fact not a communist nation but a fascist one.

Your statement that North Korea's leader Kim Jong-un is a totalarian and your suggestion that this was evidence that he and by extension North Korea as a whole could be nothing other than fascist/right wing is implying that totalitarianism is inherently right wing.

I'm not sure you're thinking yor posts through very well because to the reader the is an implication that totalarianism is inherently right wing by virtue of how you structured your post.

Maybe take a bit more care in future and perhaps leave the snarky stuff out as well.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120090119#Comment_120090119

To me relatively recently is when the Irish could be deemed to be refugees, the likes of which are arriving to Ireland currently - dealing with famine and war. If you don't agree no problem taking that back and replacing it with the above sentence.

Where'd you get/make up that info up about Ellis Island? The only significant difference was some pretty loose health screening.

For most of the time it was used you needed no papers at all to enter and only a very tiny number were ever turned away, including for health reasons - the vast majority being allowed through in a matter of hours and then could live and work with no government follow ups.

If you're claiming the Irish system is more lax than that you're not living in realty and I very much doubt that you'd be happy if it became government policy.

McHardcore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120091217#Comment_120091217

Thanks for the detailed reply. However hard you try to frame it, I never stated or even hinted that totalitarianism is exclusively right wing. Stalin was a totalitarian. So was Pol Pot. No matter how many "suggested" or "implying" or "appeared" or "structured" or "implication" any other vague descriptions you want to make to associate me with that view are made up in your head.

Id be grateful to get another verbose reply off ya telling me why you are right though.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120092043#Comment_120092043

It's not about me being right.

The point is that anyone reading the post in question in isolation would reach the same conclusion I did.

It just wasn't very well thought out, you could just say "yeah I could have worded that better" and be done with it but instead you're projecting all this antipathy onto me for pointing out the issues with your post.

SchrodingersCat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120092230#Comment_120092230

anyone reading the post in question in isolation would reach the same conclusion I did

I read it and didn’t get your conclusion at all.

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120091624#Comment_120091624

If you regard 170 years ago as relatively recent fine. I’m not going to argue.

You protest too much in attempting to draw parallels that aren't there however. Most of the people applying for refugee status here are not from countries suffering from famine.

Again, I didn’t make up anything I said about Ellis Island. What I said was

“There were more questions asked of immigrants arriving in Ellis Island from 1913 than are asked of arrivals in this country today.”

The Irish system for entry to this country is more lax and I am “living in realty (sic)”.

The proportion of people refused entry to the land of the free was higher than those deported from Ireland. Not to mention the 1 million plus Mexicans and Mexican Americans deported in the years before WWII.

For example last year, excluding Ukrainians there were circa 13,000 applications and 171 deportation orders. In 2021 there were circa 9,500 applications and 5 deportation orders.

We tend to think of the US as a nation of immigrants especially after the huge waves of Irish, German and Italian migrants in the 19th and early 20th centuries.

The highest foreign born proportion of the US population was in 1890 at 14.8%. Ireland is 17%

It is a testimony to the character of most Irish people that we have welcomed such large numbers of people from other countries without major social problems.

The way to ensure the far right do not exploit the unprecedented situation where Ireland has accommodated 70,000 Ukrainians as well as 13,000 others in one year is to address the difficulties with honesty, not inaccurate tropes about the Irish being welcomed all over the world.

Gatling

@SafeSurfer you mentioned a number of Deportation orders issued,now compare the deportation orders issued over the last 30 years or so and see how many have actually been deported,