Saudi Arabia breaks world beheading record, UN human rights chief not happy

ILoveYourVibes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118791902#Comment_118791902

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118792046#Comment_118792046

its natural to care more about nearer conflicts ...besides the enemy is not within ukraine and i have a personal interest in the country for many years ..plus ukraine and ukrainians are asking for support

Whereas a lot of arab countries seem to want the west to stay away and leave them alone.

I hated what the us did in afghanistan ...but ..the president refused to stay and fight and a lot of the soldiers refused to fight too.

No life is more worthy than another. But you can't do everything for everyone ...that doesn't mean you do nothing.

I would like to ask YOU what you are doing for yemen etc.

rock22

@smurfjed Also who are we to try to impose our concept of rights and values on different cultures, how did that work out when Columbus tried it?

So then why are we arguing with Putin?

smurfjed

Are we arguing with Putin to change Russian culture within Russia?

ILoveYourVibes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118800590#Comment_118800590

I do argue that with russians online actually don't get very far.

There is not concept of human rights in russia. No concept of secular human rights really in the collective consciousness.

The state and putin is promoted as this quasi divine entity.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118800486#Comment_118800486

While I don't believe in trying to change other cultures, Human Rights comes first. If an aspect of culture involves trampling on the human rights of a citizen, then it absolutely should be stopped.

do you agree with FGM also?

smurfjed

“do you agree with FGM also?”, HELL NO.

But is there any religious context where it is supposed to happen?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118800885#Comment_118800885

A number of different religions claim to use it for religious reasons. Not that it matters. Religion does not come before human rights either, in my view.

smurfjed

Religious as in “written and quotable”, not cultural reasons attributed to religion. Anyway, we would have a hard time pontificating about religious acts when we look back at the horrendous acts conducted in the name of the Irish Catholic Church.

For me, you cannot force people to change, but you can educate them and hopefully lead them to change.

sutrapall

I don't see the problem with beheadings. If that's what those people want, then that's what they want. If enough of them don't want it, it will eventually change, the speed of change depending on the dislike.

If they are allowed to fund the building of mosques across europe, ergo importing the infrastructure of a belief that facilitates such outcomes as beheading, then they will. If enough people don't like it, then they will be stopped. If people don't care, then those belief systems and their outcomes will be allowed seeded.

It's not rocket science. You get what you deserve, rope to hang yourself, an inch for a mile etc.

smurfjed

so much for that plan.

“The #Iran-backed Houthis reject the latest Gulf Cooperation Council offer to broker comprehensive peace talks in #Riyadh, dimming hopes of ending the war in #Yemen. “

ILoveYourVibes

Its funny those going on about yemen don't seem to know the first thing.

I mean i have asked many of them to name the primeminister of yemen ....and none of them can. Maeen Abdulmalik Saeed is his name. He is DEMOCRATICALLY elected by the people of yemen. And none of them seem to care what HE has asked for. Nor what the people of yemen want.

By the way he hasn't asked for sanctions on the US. He has asked for sanctions on iran.

Also no one seems to realize that the starvation you see in the photos isnt going on in the parts of yemen controlled by the democratically elected parts of the country under Saeed. People are well fed there. Its under the houthi controlled parts.

They also dont seem to know that the saudis for all their flaws and they have many flaws are the biggest donors of aid to yemen giving 18 billion. That doesn't excuse the other monstrosities etc.

But most people saying what about yemen right now ...probably couldn't name the last five prime ministers of yemen ...and don't care what the people of yemen want.

ILoveYourVibes

And yes the saudi govt is still monstrous.

Should we impose sanctions ....yes ..and no ...the people of yemen would be MUCH worse if we imposed sanctions on saudi ..that is the truth ..in fact the whole of the middle east would probably starve.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118803940#Comment_118803940

Nobody is going to be handing out awards to the Saudis any time soon and rightly so. But the Yemen war for the most part was dreamt up in Tehran and sponsored by Tehran. It's a complex picture and a very very ugly situation.

But Yemen has become some sort of meme for anti-US government left-wing dingbats for a while now. They don't have the faintest idea of how this situation came to be and don't know the very mendacious and dangerous actors that have stoked the flames of the conflict - nor indeed the consequences if Yemen actually fell to the Houthis.

An Iranian client state (against the will of most of the people of Yemen as you rightly pointed out) would be an absolute disaster for regional security, and a disaster for Middle Eastern security is a disaster for the world at large. You can try explaining that to simple Simons who just want any old anti-Western meme to peddle, but really, you're talking to the wall.

ILoveYourVibes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118803990#Comment_118803990

I think we need to ask the people of yemen and their govt what they want though.

Truth is if we sanction saudi kids in houthi controlled yemen suffer more. But also i half think the houthis/Iran are starving them on purpose. Because they are not starving under the parts controlled by the yemeni govt in fact people look well off there. Like NORMAL everyday people.

I do pray for a democratic govt in saudi with human rights like anyone else does. I do want to sanction them but i know if we do ...kids in yemen and the rest of the middle east ..would be even worse off.

I dont but this idea of ...the middle east can't have democracy ..i think people fight harder for their country when they feel well treated by it.

I agree about iran dreaming this thing up tho.

Also when aid organizations help ..they can't say ..oh iran is doing this ..or they won't let them help at all so they have to remain apolitical so all the aid campaigns have a noticeable absence of information. Which i understand ..if you are a celeb saying hmm why is iran doing this ..then you will never be allowed to help.

And by the way the us does have sanctions against syria iran afghanistan ..also china by the way

smurfjed

@ILoveYourVibes

”I do pray for a democratic govt in saudi with human rights”, do you realise that they do actually have a democratic government based on tribal loyalty? That there is a drop down from the King to about 3000 tribal representatives who get to share their grievances ? Or that there is a ruling council with over 70% of the members holding US college degrees?

As for human rights which is the biggest subject ever, did you know that the US state department Trafficking in Persons report 2021, rated Saudi Arabia (Tier 2) higher than Ireland (Tier 2 Watchlist).

So stop thinking that the country isn’t changing, when it actually is incorporating the changes that people screamed for. And start looking out for trafficking victims in the Irish fishing industry.

“Foreign trafficking victims identified in Ireland are from Africa, Asia, Eastern Europe, and South America. In recent years, authorities and media have reported an increase in suspected victims from Brazil, Indonesia, Nigeria, Pakistan, and Romania. Traffickers exploit victims of forced labor in domestic work, the restaurant industry, cannabis cultivation, nail salons, food processing, waste management, fishing, seasonal agriculture, and car washing services. Undocumented workers in the fishing industry and domestic workers, particularly au pairs, are vulnerable to trafficking. Migrant workers from Egypt and the Philippines are vulnerable to forced labor on fishing vessels. Women from Eastern Europe who are forced into marriage in Ireland are at risk for sex trafficking and forced labor.”

rock22

@smurfjed do you realise that they do actually have a democratic government based on tribal loyalty? ...

As for human rights which is the biggest subject ever, did you know that the US state department Trafficking in Persons report 2021rated Saudi Arabia (Tier 2) higher than Ireland (Tier 2 Watchlist).,

At this stage i think you must be just trooling

smurfjed

OK, prove me wrong ? :)

riclad

I have read that some of the victims were people who simply attended a protest or who made posts on social media that are critical of the government , at this point the us government is focused on the Ukraine war no one in power in the American government seems to care about Saudis Arabia civilians or maybe they do not want to offend a major oil producer. Going to a peaceful protest is not an act of terrorism at this point there's more freedom of speech in Russia than in Saudia Arabia. Its clear there's no due process or what we might think of of an independent legal system in Saudia Arabia

Protestors are arrested in Russia and maybe sent to prison but they are not treated as a terrorist or executed I think some of the victims are members of a religious shiite minority who are seeking more freedom of speech which we take for granted in the west

But America needs oil and does not want to buy oil from russia at this time. I.m not saying russia is a beacon of free speech, I'm saying it's slightly better than Saudia Arabia as regards human rights which is not a high bar to reach

I would expect a higher standard of government policy in regard to dealing with Saudia Arabia despicable human rights violations now that the democratic party is in power

Zebra3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118798276#Comment_118798276

Long history of double standards.

Look at the myth of people fighting for freedom and democracy in WWII.

Britain occupying huge tracts of the globe, France too, and the US with apartheid at home.

So much propaganda that mainstream media and historians are complicit in.

KieferFan69

OP these people were probably on a waiting list. It’s not like they kill this amount every day. It was arranged for all these people to be executed on the same day.

BalcombeSt4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118811202#Comment_118811202

Oh, well that makes it fine to execute 81 humans by a method most of the civilized world stopped using centuries ago except for France & Nazi Germany but the Nazis were not very civilized.

No, they do not execute that many every day or even execute people every single day. But they executed 158 people in 2015, at least 154 in 2016, at least 146 in 2017, 149 in 2018, 184 in 2019, just under 800 people in just the last half of the last decade alone. So while it's not someone every day, that's still around someone every third day.

And a large amount of those killed are foreign workers, out of the 81 the other day seven were Yemeni & one a Syrian, and in the last decade, they have also included Sri Lankans, Indonesians & Sudanese, one who was executed for sorcery. One person executed for sorcery, something that is not real is one too many.

BalcombeSt4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118806506#Comment_118806506

No chance the US will do anything to the Saudi's unless they disobey them.

That was Saddams downfall. He was given the green light to invade Iran and as Ted Koppel put it "the Reagan/Bush administrations permitted—and frequently encouraged—the flow of money, agricultural credits, dual-use technology, chemicals, and weapons to Iraq."

As late as 1989 the US Pentagon invited Iraqi nuclear engineers to the US for advanced training in weapons production. From the NY Times 1992.

"How did the Iraqis learn to use such specialized equipment? In large part from the United States Government. In August 1989, the Pentagon and the Department of Energy invited three Iraqis to attend a "detonation conference" in Portland, Ore. Financed by American taxpayers, the meeting brought together experts from around the world to explain to the Iraqis and others how to produce shock waves in any desired configuration. There were even lectures on HMX, the high explosive of choice for nuclear detonation, and on flyer plates, devices that help produce the precise shock waves needed to ignite A-bombs. Both HMX and flyer plates have turned up at Al Atheer, which should surprise no one. The three Iraqis who attended the conference came from the laboratory that eventually provided Al Atheer with its first shaped charges. [...]

Altogether, the Iraqis carried out 20 detonation tests before May 31, 1990 -- the date of the last Iraqi progress report on Al Atheer found by the United Nations. The Iraqis had worked their way through five versions of the bomb design, cutting the weapon's total weight from one ton in the first version to about half a ton in the last -- light enough to go on a missile."

https://www.nytimes.com/1992/03/08/magazine/building-saddam-hussein-s-bomb.html

Manach

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118800486#Comment_118800486

Free history and law lesson, part of my mission to educate the not so fortunate. The first part of what you are describing is strict protestant interpretation that ignores Church canon law on which the basis of equity (fairness) that is suposed to act as a shield against the power of the state. As for Columbus, you are failing for the much discredited myth of the Roussean noble savage and ignoring exant accounts of just how brutal and cheap life was around the Carribean basin at the time. Like many on boards to paraphrase the writer Johathan Haidt, living in a bubble of the post-Modern Western era and passing judgement on those who fail to live up present day values is not engaging with the past, it is mere strawmanning the historican other.

Shao Kahn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118816060#Comment_118816060

It's actually more cruel to lock someone up in prison for the rest of their life, rather than just execute them.

You wouldn't do it to a dog, you'd just put them down. But for some reason we do it to humans and think it's normal or even merciful. It's really not!

It's just warped western perception that execution is a bad thing. Ending someone's life is actually a very natural thing.

As regards the method of execution, again we've become desensitized to death in much of the west. How is cutting someone's head off much more barbaric than letting someone hang from a rope from their head? Or strapping them to a table against their will, and injecting them with poison while they watch?

If you've ever gone hunting or fishing, killed gutted and cooked an animal, it's not really that big of a deal tbh. We're all animals at the end of the day. And we were all born to die, that's a fact.

Death, even execution or murder, is far more natural than being locked in a cage or prison.

BalcombeSt4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118816336#Comment_118816336

It might be more humane than locking someone up for life sure, although I think the 11.5 million people murdered by the Nazi's would disagree, say the 33,000 people who had to lie on the dead & dying in the ravine at Babi Yar while the Germans pumped bullets into the living & the dead.

And especially when the "crime" is belonging to the wrong ethnicity or nationality or in the case of the Saudi dead being guilty of witchcraft & sorcery. I'm a pretty big critic of western culture being imposed on the unwilling, but I think not using the death penalty for trivial things is something we got right. I think the case of whether the death penalty is more humane than life in prison is for a different topic, as it has nothing to do with being unjustly punished.

BalcombeSt4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118809174#Comment_118809174

"So much propaganda that mainstream media and historians are complicit in."

Yep, as well as the so-called intellectual class, that decides what the great thoughts, ideas & the right history is. For example, Liberal intellectuals' evaluation on the Vietnam war. Take, say, Anthony Lewis, who’s about as far to the critical extreme as you can find in the media. In his final words evaluating the war in The New York Times in 1975, he said the war began with “blundering efforts to do good” but by 1969, namely a year after the American business community had turned against the war, it was clear that the United States “could not impose a solution except at a price too costly to itself,” so therefore it was a “disastrous mistake.”, that it was worse than a crime it was a blunder sort of attitude. And then the extreme right-wing view is "we should have bombed them back to the stone age", (which they basically did) & if we just sent another 500,000 men & dropped the A-Bomb on Hanoi we would have won.

Instead of calling it what it was, a war of aggression against southern Vietnam, which later turned into a war against the whole of Indochina with half a million US troops, 54,000 Aussie & N.Z troops, 32,000 Thailand troops & 48,000 S.Korean troops, so in total thats 602,032 troops rampaging through Indochina, setting villages on fire, taking potshots at villagers, gang-raping young girls as young as 12 - 16 & after raping a soldier would stick a shrapnel grenade inside her & the guys would watch & laugh as her stomach blew open & she died.

ILoveYourVibes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118804543#Comment_118804543

That is a joke.

The king combines legislative, executive, and judicial functions. As prime minister, he presides over the Council of Ministers. 

JupiterKid

I just cannot see how anyone here can possibly defend the barbaric regime in Saudi Arabia, particularly against practically indentured foreign workers and women from impoverished Islamic countries.

This is just a complete denial of a gross violation of human rights and attempting to deflect the blame by claiming we in the West cannot moralise about the dire human rights situation in materially wealthy but far less enlightened societies.

smurfjed

I always felt that in diplomacy, the carrot is better than the stick. So rather than harping on about “wrongs” which we all know have existed since the inception of the country, how about acknowledging that in the last 5 years they have initiated changes that no one ever expected. And this is only the start, so don’t moralize about the past, but focus on what they can achieve in the future.

[i]The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is known as one of the most conservative nations in the world. There have been many laws and rules that regulate matters concerning religious freedom, human rights, and social activities in the Kingdom.In this post, we will take a look at some of the changes that took place in the Kingdom during the last êve years and see how these have aéected the residents in the Kingdom. What do you think are those changes?

in Saudi Arabia in the Last 5 Years

If you’ve heard some stories about Saudi Arabia in the news or from your relatives and friends, you might be compelled to think that life in the Kingdom must have been hard for its residents including expats and overseas Filipino workers.

But doesn’t it seem strange that Saudi remains among the top destinations for OFWs for work? Why do many Filipinos still go to Saudi for work despite all the stories we’ve heard about the country? Is it still the same case for today?

For hundreds of years since it was founded, Saudi Arabia has been an absolute monarchy. This means that all power to enforce laws and the decision-making comes from only one person. Since 2015, this responsibility has been given to King Salman.

And for hundreds of years, the Kingdom has strictly embraced its conservative laws based on its religion, Islam. This has led the rest of the outside world to believe that Saudi is and will always be an isolated Kingdom where people live diéerently from the rest of us.

However, with King Salman’s reign during the last êve years, major changes took place that shocked outsiders who thought Saudi was bound to stay as it has been for centuries, with little to no signs of progressive growth and change in the people’s thinking.

The major changes that took place in the Kingdom during King Salman’s regime were mostly that of concerning basic rights and privileges enjoyed by women, who for the longest time have been kept isolated and discriminated by society in favor of men.

1. Travel alone.

In the past, women were not allowed to travel without the consent and the presence of a male guardian.

2. Apply for a passport.

With the ability to travel on their own, women can now also apply for a passport and travel the world or use it for purposes such as applying for work, etc.

3. Cross and exit the borders of Saudi Arabia.

As women can now apply for a passport, those who wish to work in industries such as aviation and transportation also now enjoy the freedom to cross and exit the borders of Saudi Arabia as they wish.

4. Drive around the city.

In recent years, the number of female drivers in the Kingdom has signiêcantly increased, creating more jobs for women and making services more accessible to them.

5. Vote and run for public oìce.

In the recent elections, at least 77 female leaders have been elected into oìce. The change could further push Saudi’s initiative for gender equality and women empowerment.

6. Enjoy access to basic rights such as setting up their own business, watching livesports (segregated), working in the private sectors, and going to the cinema. Note: Employment has been quite a hot topic in the Kingdom since the government enforced the ‘Saudization’ program which gives priority for citizens in the workforce (mostly in public and private sectors) over migrants including overseas Filipino workers.

7. Enjoy doing physical exercise on the streets and in the gym. As women are now allowed to participate in more social and public events, they can also join marathons and other activities out on the streets as long as they act appropriately and do not violate any laws.

8. Join the military. Although women are now allowed to enlist in the military, this still requires permission from a male guardian (father or husband).

9. Have custody of their children (after divorce). Traditionally, Saudi men are considered the head of the household and that all decisions for the family only come from them.

10. Wear casual clothing (as long as this does not reveal too much skin). Although women are no longer required to cover their faces with a hijab or wear traditional long black garments (abaya), they are still not allowed to wear indecent or inappropriate clothing in public.

Aside from changes concerning the rights and privileges of women, social activities such as holding live concerts and playing loud music are now allowed in the Kingdom.

Since 2017, the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia has joined the United Nations Commission on the Status of Women and Gender Empowerment. But according to a recent survey by the UN, Saudi Arabia still ranked #141 out of 144 countries in terms of gender equality.

While there’s still a long way to go before we see Saudi Arabia become a much more gender-friendly nation, the fact that change has already started will not keep progress from happening in a few more years. After all, change does not happen overnight.[\i]

smurfjed

@jupiterkid have a look at this, two gay Scandinavians touring around Saudi. You should try it some day.

[youtube]https://youtu.be/WqfY0GZOC2o [/youtube]