Saudi Arabia breaks world beheading record, UN human rights chief not happy

rock22

There are now calls on F1 to abandon the race in Saudi Arabia.

F1 faces calls to quit Saudi Arabia while prisoner’s family asks Hamilton to help | Formula One | The Guardian

It is not likely to succeed but at least more people will get an update on what is happening in this despicable country

@smurfjed , just re-read your list in your last post. And then look up the meaning of democracy.

smurfjed

@rock22.

”Although democracy is generally understood to be defined by voting,[1][6] no consensus exists on a precise definition of democracy.[12] Karl Popper says that the "classical" view of democracy is simply,[13] "in brief, the theory that democracy is the rule of the people, and that the people have a right to rule."  Kofi Annan states that "there are as many different forms of democracy as there are democratic nations in the world."[14] One study identified 2,234 adjectives used to describe democracy in the English language.[15]”.

‘They have this form.

“Bayʿah (Arabic: بَيْعَة, "Pledge of allegiance"), in Islamic terminology, is an oath of allegianceto a leader. It is known to have been practiced by the Islamic prophet Muhammad. Bayʿahis sometimes taken under a written pact given on behalf of the subjects by leading members of the tribe with the understanding that as long as the leader abides by certain requirements towards his people, they are to maintain their allegiance to him. Bayʿah is still practiced in countries such as Saudi Arabia and Sudan and Islamic State.“

Do you think that a western concept of individual voting would be better? Haven’t we already seen the results of that in Iraq and Libya?

BalcombeSt4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118837385#Comment_118837385

Very little, but at least it's something.

BalcombeSt4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118837588#Comment_118837588

Do you think that a western concept of individual voting would be better? Haven’t we already seen the results of that in Iraq and Libya?

True but these countries fell apart after bloody coups & sectarian warfare, not unlike when Stormont tried to be reformed in 1969, took 28 years to reform the statelet after vicious bloodletting. If it can be done here why not there, the ordinary people want a democratic state.

smurfjed

@BalcombeSt4 “ the ordinary people want a democratic state.”,

OK, have you asked the ordinary Saudi people if they want a democratic state? At the moment MBS has approval ratings that many world leaders would crave. The changes that he has implemented in the last 5 years are amazing and have a direct impact on individuals. They love him. 

Also just take a look at pictures of him greeting Tayyip Erdogan a few days ago to see the statesman that he has grown into.

BalcombeSt4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119000212#Comment_119000212

Would you like to live in Saudi Arabia? Of course, the approval rating is high, nobody wants to lose their head.

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/world-politics/article/abs/popularity-of-authoritarian-leaders/3EB2352F226F8904DBB0293A83F10622

"Although brutal repressio

n in overt dictatorships could cause respondents to falsify their preferences, "

"Dictators also benefit from greater perceived public safety, but the authors find no such effect in democracies. Covert censorship of the media and the Internet is associated with higher approval in autocracies—in particular, in informational ones—but ratings fall when citizens recognize censorship. "

In 1936 Hitler won 98.8% in 1938 99.1%

Living in an oppressive society for so long they've never experienced democracy so they don't even know what it is, how could they want it?

smurfjed

@BalcombeSt4

“Would you like to live in Saudi Arabia?” I would have absolutely no issues living there, especially these days.

You have no concept of how the tribal culture works and while the elders of the tribes may have sworn allegiance to the Al Saud tribe. The younger generation are returning with western eductions and are extremely aware of Democracy. They are also very aware of how their own country is changing and the opportunities available to them right now.

I would suggest that rather than try to enforce democracy from afar, you actually visit Saudi and talk to the people, you might be surprised.

rock22

It isn't about approval ratings or anything else. It is about being an upright moral person. The leaders in Saudi Arabia fail in every respect.

Zebra3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119000212#Comment_119000212

So he's given up on murdering journalists and having them chopped up in to pieces?

What a hero!!!!

I hear he's also trying hard to chop the number of beheadings in SA each year.

(Only joking, of course the murderer isn't).

John Doe1

The type of Islam practiced in Saudi should be outlawed in Europe. A medieval religion for a medieval people.

As an aside, In the history of the Nobel prize, Ireland has almost double the number of Nobel laureates (11) than the entire Arab world (7)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Arab_Nobel_laureates

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119012222#Comment_119012222

China and India also have less Nobel Prizes than Ireland, as an aside.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119012222#Comment_119012222

Israel has a similar number to us too. and with both ireland and Israel, these numbers do not include the massive number of nobel laureates from around the world with Irish or Jewish Heritage.

old_aussie

Follow the Irish laws when in Ireland.

Follow the Saudi Laws when in Saudi Arabia.

Why is everyone caring about prisoners who have murdered or committed some heinous acts?

Shouldn't we be caring about the victims.

BalcombeSt4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119017860#Comment_119017860

That's such an immoral argument and a pretty stupid one at that. It was against the law to help and shelter Jews in Nazi occupied Europe but many people did and paid with their lives for it. The Jews were criminals for mixing their blood with victims of pure Aryan blood

Would you inform on the whereabouts of the Frank family to the Gestapo just because it was the law?

Another reason is how many innocents are being beheaded. At the sentencing of the Birmingham 6 the judge told the men he would hang them if it was still in his power to do so.

South African apartheid, southern slave states, the committee of public safety during the French terror, I mean I could go on all day, hopefully you get the point i'm making, that law is not inheritable virtues or evil.

"law without justice is a wound without a cure"

BalcombeSt4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119012222#Comment_119012222

I think Wahhabism should be outlawed everywhere. I don't agree tho that they'r medieval people, they are under the lash of a brutal regime. Might as well say Christianity is a antiquity religion for antiqueness people.

WrenBoy

To compare wahhabi/salafist islam to any other religion is just weak whataboutism. The opinion that religion is a problem is one thing but there are major difference in the scale of the issues different religions are presenting in the world currently. Only the former has been operatating through violence and intimidation in order to grow influence in the past few decades.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120554677#Comment_120554677

In fairness, if you're speaking about Islam generally, it is an easy religion to convert to and has a simplicity that many are attracted to.

For instance, about 1 in 10 American Muslims are Latino now, and 2 in 10 are African American.

They are not being converted by the sword or by intimidation, they are freely choosing to do so. It's an interesting phenomenon.

WrenBoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120554726#Comment_120554726

You are right in that there are young people freely choosing it in the west. I can see a definite appeal in the way people who would be religiously inclined see the how islam is treated with special rules socially and culturally by the west especially in criticism and this special deference that seems to be paid to ot. Imo that lends to this image of a strong religion that many young men would be impressed by. I was speaking more of the political and social influence like we saw with the Danish cartoons or Salman Rushdie. Im sure there are many complex reasons at play but yes very interesting certainly.

BalcombeSt4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120554677#Comment_120554677

Well, I wasn't comparing any religions to one another. It's just a historical fact Christianity was born during antiquity and wahhabism in the 18th century.

mikethecop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120552803#Comment_120552803

Immoral ? coming from a terrorist supporter whos very user names reflects that :-).

your gang murdered plenty of innocents on the back of their own warped morals

moral compass must be spinning wildly out of control

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120552806#Comment_120552806

That would go as well as banning Nazism. You can't ban an ideology, it either exists or it doesn't. In spite of all the numerous sanctions against extremism there's generally a handful of Nazis all around the world at any given moment.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120554816#Comment_120554816

Salafism/Wahhabism is probably best compared to conservative Catholic movements that sprung up in opposition to Vatican II. It is more sect or movement than speaking for Sunni Islam as a whole. Albeit a particularly powerful sect given it essentially has state sponsorship in Saudi and to a lesser extent Qatar (or at least has been allowed to flourish by the Saudi royal family out of political expediency).

I understand there is a temptation to conflate Wahabbism with Sunni Islam generally, but it isn't strictly fair to do so in my view.

BalcombeSt4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120554868#Comment_120554868

Well, yes of course you can't ban what people believe in their heads but you can proscribe these groups. I don't believe in locking people up for trying to spread their ideology [unless they've hurt people of course], if that was the case we'd lock all political parties in the state up. Proper Education is the best way to fight these ideologies, bombing Muslim countries just brings more recruits to their side, just like the British shooting Pearse & co brought more people to the Republican side, and as Rami Ehanan, Bassam Aramin, John Pilger and Noam Chomsky have stated Palestine is still the issue.

As someone above has mentioned the Troubles [which I wont reply to because it's just pointless whataboutism, every war/conflict in the 20th & 21st century immoral things were done by all belligerents, you on the other have brought up relevant points] I'l try to make this as relevant as possible, I believe the UVF slogan was "For GOD & Ulster" As I said all belligerents commit immoral acts. The British carried out the Ballymurphy, Falls Road, Bogside, New Lodge & Springhill massacres, the Republicans did Bloody Friday, Kingsmill, La mone, Birmingham, Enniskillen, Darkley, Claudy, Mountainview, Tullyvallen, Coshquin. Loyalists did Bombay Street, McGurks, Dublin 72 & 73, Belturbet, Dublin & Monagha, Butchers, Drumbeg, Greysteel, Sean Grahams, James Murrays, Loughinisland, Annies Bar, Reavey & O''Dowd. No excuses, all war crimes, and there's plenty of others from all sides missing out these are just the major war crimes, I do believe as horrible and as devastating as they were that Loughagall & Clonoe ambushes along with Warrenpoint & the Ballygawley raid were legitimate acts of war. I believe the nationalist people of Derry, Belfast, Armagh, Newry etc had a right to rise up. As Oliver Wright, a former "UK government representative", said of Stormont: "It was a minor form of tyranny, not a Stalinist form, but tyranny all the same." I believe people everywhere have a right to rise up against tyranny. I don't believe religion was the driving force behind the conflict but it undoubtedly played a huge role. The Republic celebrates the good old IRA, and just like the in the north they also committed war crimes, shot police dead in front of children and wife's, of course they were fighting a force of tyranny that is comparable to what the Germans did in Belgium, and just like the north they had a right to rise up, that still doesn't excuse war crimes and sectarian even if the UVF was doing the same in Ulster, it just creates cycles of violence.

MLKJR said there can't be peace without proper justice, which I believe is true and would add peace also demands democratic rights. One case were I think were we [the west] could have helped was the 1991 Iraq uprising which included the Iraq Communist PartY, Dawa, KDP, PUK and the CPK, but instead we stood back and watched Saddam [good friend of Reagan] kill 180,000 people ,mainly civilians.

"Prompted by foreign policy "realists" in his administration—such as Colin Powell, Brent Scowcroft and Richard Haass—Mr. Bush allowed Saddam to fly military aircraft to put down the uprising. While thousands of U.S. troops were still on Iraqi soil and in some cases were close enough to watch, the tyrant unleashed the power of modern weaponry against men, women and children."

BalcombeSt4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120554869#Comment_120554869

I fully agree with that.

I believe it was the same week that the Berlin wall came down that the Atlacatl Battalion trained and created at the US School of the Americas murdered six Jesuit priest along with the housekeeper and her daughter. And far-right death squads had been massacring anyone connected to the Jesuits all through out the 1980's starting with the murder of Bishop Oscar Romero. The rape and torture of Sister Dianna Ortiz in Guatemala was another disgusting crime carried out by a far-right death squad. I am an atheist but I did admire the work and spirit of these people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3NrCYU5zNE