State lost 10,000 Intel jobs due to planning system delays

IAmTheReign

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118792145#Comment_118792145

Do they? I've worked on the continent for most of the last 10 years and I can say from experience most people are fully aware that Ireland and the UK are different places and I've never once heard anyone talk about Ireland leaving the EU.

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118793894#Comment_118793894

Just play along, it's easier 😉

getoutadodge

https://www.bloombergquint.com/business/intel-set-to-get-5-5-billion-in-german-subsidies-for-mega-plant

Rules (EU MS state aid)...we make the rules...

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118792608#Comment_118792608

so would i, from my dealings with people from other EU countries that just isn't happening.

as well as that, we have managed to get over the land bridge issue now as it is being bypassed and the supply chain has been and is continuing to adapt.

it sounds like an IREXIT supporter engaging in wishful thinking, TBH.

plodder

€5 billion in state aid is certainly going to have a major influence over where this project is located and presumably the eu chips act is what allows the German government to offer that aid. You wonder what they are getting in return for that. Foundry services aimed at the German car industry could be a big part of it given that the current semiconductor shortage has limited the production output of German car manufacturers.

On the planning system/courts delay issue here, someone posted the following earlier:

""But Equinor has pulled out of the project, and out of Ireland. According to the Irish Examiner, Equinor has abandoned wind plans in Ireland due to “dissatisfaction with the regulatory and planning regime.” https://electrek.co/2021/11/05/equinor-pulls-out-of-ireland-and-a-2-3b-floating-offshore-wind-farm/"

I wonder if that had more to do with the debacle described below, where even when you think you have all the consents in place, you actually don't.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/clare-island-fisherman-takes-action-to-stop-fibreoptic-cable-project-off-co-mayo-1.4252666

He got the project stopped, even though the cable was already most of the way across the Atlantic. The on-shore facilities had permission, were constructed and afaik, a crew of specialists were in quarantine waiting for the go ahead to bring the cable ashore in Mayo. It was only a spur of the cable coming here (for Google and Facebook) but it's cancelled now.

FGR

The entire courts system needs reform. It was developed for a simpler time with a smaller population and far less bureaucracy and is one branch of the state that successive governments are unwilling to touch.

Cost, as always, is probably the reason they won't bring in more judges, increase the length and frequency of sittings and introduce a maximum waiting period to allow for the hearing of matters, planning included.

steddyeddy

This is going to be a controversial one. I am all for private investment in the country and I think it's key to a successful economy. However, we have one of the most ridiculous housing situations in Europe. I currently live in Germany but have lived in England, the US and elsewhere. My girlfriend pays 570 for a nice apartment in Berlin while a friend of mine pays 2200 for a one bedroom apartment in Cork. I have never seen such low standards of renting as I have in Ireland with the extra insult that it's one of the most expensive countries to rent.

Despite this we have a spate of landlords claiming that they're the victim in all of this. I work in the biotech field and I am involved in start ups and bigger biotech industries. Numerous conversations I've had with their employees have involved them saying they wouldn't want to pay so much of their wages on rent as is the case as in Ireland.

We have to improve the housing situation first or this will mean even less people will invest in the state.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118798380#Comment_118798380

I'd tend towards agreement. I can't imagine a situation at the moment where the greater Galway city area could absorb a major project like a 10,000 person fab. Galway is creaking from an infrastructural and housing pov.

If the IDA went to Intel and told them the new facility would be accompanied by a major public works project with affordable housing and transport infrastructure thrown into the bargain, they may have stood a chance - but the practical challenges were probably front-of-mind for Intel.

This is the highest of high-end FDI projects for a firm like Intel with a lot on the line, not a widget factory in 1970s Shannon Free-Zone. They need to ensure everything is right before a spade is put in the ground or a dollar is spent.

joseywhales

There's some kind of backwards thinking here. Are people suggesting that we should not take the jobs because we don't have enough people to fill them or homes for them to live in? No wonder the country is so indebted. Where do you think the tax receipts are going to come from to pay for society to function. If there is an intersection of this group and those who want the government to do more to battle rising fuel prices, well I give up, we are doomed.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118798984#Comment_118798984

We pitched for jobs outside a city that couldn't absorb them. This will not have been lost on Intel.

This was like Sligo bidding for the Olympics without a bid-book or budget. This is the elite end of FDI attraction, with jobs out the wazoo and a critical global industry anchored in your country for a generation.

They're still pussyfooting about with a ring-road in Galway and people already in good jobs are struggling to find somewhere to live.

This is an example of Ireland paying the price for inertia.

Strumms

Intel couldn’t accept the fact that they had to engage with our due process. Had to make requests, get permission and tow the line and wait their turn…corporates don’t like that..

Here in Ireland intel over the years received millions in tax breaks from us.

Might remember that when I’m buying tech.

Galwayguy35

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118792356#Comment_118792356

Enslavements you say, so well paid jobs is slave labour now according to this poster.

uptherebels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118799287#Comment_118799287

Couldn't accept the fact? Wait their turn?You seem to think corporations are obliged to wait on us.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118799790#Comment_118799790

They follow our process

We are not obliged to bow to all their demands and you will find most MNC have no issue with this

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118799790#Comment_118799790

moreso then we are obliged to rush our processes and dispense with due process, diligence and regulatory checking which are enshrined in our laws , just because they click their fingers…and say.. “ohhh exsuce me bu bu bu but we is Intel, we is call the shots…”.happened in the past..it’s not 1987 though.

there has been more then enough corners being cut, favours given, lines blurred and laws broken to facilitate business, that culture is history, for the most part.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118799790#Comment_118799790

We don’t have the people to staff it and it is a low value adde industry which is very price sensitive so not worth going after in any case. So we are just as entitled to pass on it.

Cordell

>>it is a low value adde industry

Seriously?

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118799917#Comment_118799917

I agree that most MNCs will, indeed, follow whatever requirements are in place by the local government, but it's a balancing act as time and expense spend in the pre-construction application process is a lost opportunity cost to be considered against the benefits of the eventual creation. Even if it's, say, cheaper to own a facility in Ireland than in Germany, if it takes an extra two or three years to get the approval process done, that's two or three years of production (or service, or whatever) lost to the MNC in question.

A case in point is Tesla's Nevada Gigafactory. It already had a factory in California, but in order to increase capacity for output, it needed another factory. California basically ruled itself out because the process took so long, and the cars had to be built. As evidence that it wasn't just a matter of costs and incentives, it was discovered after Nevada was selected that Texas's bid actually was much bigger, but still not as fast as Nevada (NV's proximity to the extant factory probably also was a factor, in fairness). Interestingly, it was an Irishman, Diarmuid O'Connell who was the VP of Tesla who put together the deal.

As regards housing, build it and they will come. The place is between Reno and Fernley, there is absolutely bugger-all out there, but it seems to have been sorted out.

There is a difference between having various hoops to jump through in order to gain planning permission, and how long those hoops have to take. Can those hoops be more efficient?

mary 2021

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118799376#Comment_118799376

yup well paid job = big house to keep up with peers = big mortgage = stranglehold on you for 30 years if thats not enslavement than i cant say what is?, oh yes loads of profits for shareholders & a giant fcuk off yacht for the CEO and you struggle to pay ( a second mortgage) a child minders to raise your kid and try to stop working at the weekend to eat a family dinner 60 + hours tell me whats wholesome about that life? Ask yourself?

Galwayguy35

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118801513#Comment_118801513

Sounds like you would prefer to be on the dole.

Pete_Cavan

Seems to me like Ireland were saying to Intel "we have a lovely site here, don't you think it's lovely? Did we mention the site is lovely?".

There is nothing to suggest that the site was seriously preferred to other options or that the planning system here had any influence at all in which location was chosen.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118800308#Comment_118800308

Yes it is. It is rapidly becoming a commodity industry, so a wast of effort to retain or attract such business.

sutrapall

Generally speaking, these multinationals are going to pay fractions of the tax they should be paying, import a very large proportion of the workers, drive up prices of insufficient housing, pressurise existing infrastructure such as health and environment and so on. Because it suits them, not the country.

We're a paper economy largely built on pyramid schemes, house prices and shyte investment that's a net drain. Yeah it'll benefit a few, scream the few.

uptherebels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118799917#Comment_118799917

Never said we should bow to their demands.

uptherebels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118800074#Comment_118800074

There is a difference between rushing our process and having a needlessly drawn out process.

What corners have been cut? Laws broken?

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118801634#Comment_118801634

Next-gen semiconductor engineering and manufacturing is the precise opposite of a commodity industry.

There are only really three firms worth talking about that are capable of leading-edge R&D and manufacturing in this space - Intel happen to be trailing in third place.

Sorry not sorry, but the above is a complete nonsense. "Low value add"??? Jesus wept. I for one am glad of my TSMC shares.

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118802316#Comment_118802316

What enables you to determine that our processes are needlessly being drawn out ?

historically there have been numerous laws. near why I live planning given for a housing project. That was built outside of the spec of the plans…

uptherebels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118802352#Comment_118802352

What enables me to determine that, is the same that allowed you to determine that intel didn't want to "get permission and tow the line and wait their turn"

Which numerous laws?

Podge_irl

yup well paid job = big house to keep up with peers = big mortgage = stranglehold on you for 30 years if thats not enslavement than i cant say what is?

If you can't say what slavery is, then it reflects pretty poorly on you tbh. I'll give you a hint - it's not that.

Ireland was, I suspect, always in trouble with this given their massive investment in another FAB here. Having so much deployed in one country would be something of a risk. As to the planning delays - there is a difficult line to thread on this, though from a very ill-informed viewpoint we do seem to be slightly on the wrong side of it.

mary 2021

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118801558#Comment_118801558

Nope i work for my self, no yacht but i own my own house no mortgage so i dont have to pimp myself out to american corporations who are only in Ireland to pay little or no corpo tax. I did work for an american corporation once and i found the culture to be quite toxic. There is no point in attacking me if you like working for them but having been on both sides I prefer my life now.

walshb

I’d say SF and PBP are delighted with this missed opportunity!

Zebra3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118799917#Comment_118799917

You are totally correct that they are obliged to follow our process, but maybe our process needs a review and as mentioned is from a different time.

Modernise or get left behind.

I worked for Intel for years and tbh I never thought Galway was anyway a viable proposition due to labour force issues and the complete and utter lack of public transport that would have been required.

It always struck me that Intel were happy to mention Galway possibly to put pressure elsewhere and not have the eventual winners think they were a shoe-in. Anyone I know that works in there be it for Intel or contractors next expenses Galway to win.

A bit like the IOC stringing along hopeless Olympic city candidates.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118803015#Comment_118803015

The problem ireland has is no proper rail network. The main airport is Dublin and if you want to get to Galway, we’ll it’s a taxi/bus into town. Then a slow train down to Galway, maybe 3 hours?

If you could turn around and say a train from airport to city centre in 10 mins and a fast direct train in 1 hour to Galway it might make sense.

People complain about the concentration of companies in Dublin and then at the same time want no invest in public transport

tails_naf

Sure they follow our process. The process could be efficient and actually well planned though, right? The issue is the process. It could be a lot better. 1,000 greenfield homes could be built for 250m. (don't give me the average cost is higher, 1,000 homes comes with serious economies of scale). 10,000 for 2.5b. Not saying Intel had to build them, it it's a drop in the bucket compared with the potential investment, and these are the jobs paying our taxes and funding our social services. So plan for the fans, plan for the suburbs to support them. Its not impossible (ask the Germans). If it was not for FDI we'd still be second world at best.

steddyeddy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118798984#Comment_118798984

Actually I'm suggesting numerous biotech small, medium and large companies are being informed by their employees they don't want to live in Ireland because they would pay too much of their rent on housing with an unprofessional landlord class. Should they change their thinking to help our economy or should we focus on fixing the problem?

steddyeddy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118799241#Comment_118799241

Indeed I'm surprised this fact is lost on so many people. When I lived in America and the UK the news being reported from Ireland was consistently that of lack of housing and an unprofessional landlord class. Do people not think companies care about housing their employees?

joseywhales

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118804837#Comment_118804837

I'm not suggesting that we shouldn't look for solutions. I suggesting that we should take any direct investment for skilled labour we can get, regardless of whether housing is available or not. If the demand is created, we should get out of the way and let the supply meet the challenge. We want to remain economically competitive after all. The last thing we should be doing is turning down opportunities. We are in a global competition. If you are saying that housing is just so uncompetitive in Ireland that people refuse to work here we should look into that. Are we saying that if 10k jobs land outside Galway, it is not profitable for private investment to rent to this workforce? Why? Is it the cost of energy and material on the island? Is it the lack of eviction enforcement to protect the investment? Or are the building standards too onerous to be profitable? Or perhaps the salaries at intel are just not good enough. I lived in Manhattan for a few years, the rents were insane but so was the pay, so it didn't matter, perhaps the quality of these jobs is overstated if they do not pay enough to rent a flat outside of Galway.

littlevillage

And the €12million isn't even "new" money.... It was already allocated to Ireland.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/is-intel-s-12bn-investment-just-a-consolation-prize-1.4828875

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118801513#Comment_118801513

Your math is filled with assumptions. How about we start with "choice". Depending on education, qualifications and experience, one may be in a position to "choose" to apply for one of these slave jobs you speak of. People then "choose" the type of house they can afford, which may include a long mortgage, but people "choose" this. People also have the "choice" as to whether they wish to be parents or not (for the most part). So, if taking up one these these jobs was akin to enslavement, then that would also be a "choice".

You might consider that the device you are using to post your comments most likely contains an Intel chip, or other MNC chip and you are therefore supporting slavery 😉

I personally believe the culture in these MNCs is pretty toxic and they burst at the seams with virtue signaling, but people can make their own decision to work for them, or not.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118792993#Comment_118792993

On the manufacturing end, they pay quite well for graduates. I think it works out at 50k per annum with the allowances and bonuses for someone coming out of college with a Level 7 engineering degree, which is pretty decent. Most graduates wouldn't be earning anywhere near that starting off.

Not everyone gets a big house surrounded by acres of land, but in Oranmore, there are plenty of properties between the 200-250k price range, which is buttons comparing to the average in the likes of Dublin. I'm sure plenty of the workers would have lived outside Oranmore in any case and be able to get more for their money without a long commute.

Most of us have to save before getting a mortgage, that's just the way it is. It's not a bad habit to get into either.

I'm not surprised we lost out to Germany either. Intel are having problems getting enough qualified staff to fill their technical roles. A huge percentage of engineering grads are being hoovered up by Intel and their contractors. Germany have similar problems in this area and a lot of Irish grads are encouraged to travel to the likes of Germany and the Netherlands to fill technical roles due to a big shortage of this talent.

steddyeddy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118800455#Comment_118800455

Build it and they will come? Facebook, Google and a huge amount of pharmaceutical plants are here and we still have a housing crisis. In fact these industries are pushing up rent and house prices in the area.

mary 2021

Maybe Intel should build bedsits / pods first like that Apple factory in China a live in complex where the employees eventually jump out the windows ??

Of course Intel dont care about employees living conditions or housing its all just numbers to them thats why i say MNC's are more than toxic. A small Irish owned firm with a small number of employees is far better for Ireland than enslavement to INTEL.

joseywhales

Enslavement is some hyperbole, the most significant property that defines slavery is that the slave cannot leave. Workers can come and go as they please, completely different.

Manic Moran

Let me guess. Planning issues with getting new housing built in the area? (I honestly don’t know, but presumably there is a reason why new housing has not been built)

Galwayguy35

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118805322#Comment_118805322

You've a real bee in your bonnet about Intel, did they give ya a bad reference or what!?

mary 2021

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118805776#Comment_118805776

No never worked for them but i think IMO large MNC's dont really care about the employees and i dont like them for that. In my last job for a MNC one of my colleagues committed suicide as he was being bullied by a manager so i have no respect for their management styles. I think i have a valid reason to be sceptical also middle managers are often no good enough to go far and have the worst kind of complexes. My experience, i can listen to any valid argument but i was not impressed.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118805769#Comment_118805769

There are a myriad of reasons.

Planning is probably part of it but I don't think it's a huge part of it.

One big reason is that since the crash developers have found it much harder to get credit from the banks and thus cannot build at the size or pace they need to to turn a decent profit.

Plus the rules for people looking for mortgages is much more strict than it was.

As a reaction to the loose practices that facilated the tiger era construction boom and the bubble and it's bursting we have become so strict that almost nothing can get built.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118802417#Comment_118802417

There will of course be an increase in demand for dog grooming when the multinationals all leave.

Annascaul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058237573/state-lost-10-000-intel-jobs-due-to-planning-system-delays

Long planning delays are probably only part of that one. I think the main reason for Intel choosing Germany over Ireland is the massive housing crisis in Ireland and all that unpredictability around that. No long term employee wants to live in shared housing or overpriced rents. In this environment Intel would have a tough time retaining employees long term.

In Magdeburg Germany they don't have that problem. Magdeburg isn't the most beautiful place of Germany, it's the former east, but cost of living is low, there is lot's of space and if one wants to own their own house with a big garden around, even newly built, the standard is very high, at a way lower cost than Ireland. Thus people stay on in the company, build their lives, and see the job at Intel as a long term choice.

Ireland is sadly too focused on the concept of ever rising property prices and long planning delays making supply artificially scarce.

Cordell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118805913#Comment_118805913

No never worked for them but i think IMO large MNC's dont really care about the employees and i dont like them for that

In my experience working for small family owned business, small startups, small MNC, medium MNC and large MNC the larger the C the better the treatment. Bullying was something quite common in the small businesses where everyone knew everyone and anyone that didn't fit PERFECTLY didn't last long and no effort was made to find a more fitting role.

But in any case, you don't like MNC but lots of people do and appreciate the career opportunities offered by large high tech corpos like Intel. I don't see any reason to be happy that this opportunity didn't happen.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118813064#Comment_118813064

I think the main reason for Intel choosing Germany over Ireland is the massive housing crisis in Ireland and all that unpredictability around that.

Not specific to Magdeburg, but hey look, Germany also has a "housing crisis"

https://www.dw.com/en/germanys-next-government-aims-to-tackle-housing-crisis/a-59950132