Humiliated at meeting

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118813290#Comment_118813290

Rubbish. The employer is clearly following a procedure, most likely set up by the legal eagles and all the OP has is that she does not like the way she was treated as a witness in a company investigation. Everyone including the employer is entitled to their good name and the WRC will act on a such a flimsy complaint.

Tabnabs

Surely to goodness your husband, who is a union rep, has all the information and experience to deal with a situation like this? Your employers are not obliged to engage with him on your behalf, but he can tell you exactly what you need to do better than random people on the internet.

Midlands Minnie

The thing is. They are of course entitled to hold a full investigation into what happened, and l willingly participated BUT l was not prepared to see videos of me which had absolutely nothing to do with what l found. How does showing me very out of breath with loud volume for over a minute in a room fullnof people l barely know, solve who did the deed. And showing me going into the toilet, they could have fast forwarded these parts. I am only asking for opinions on these particular areas and l understand people have their own ideas of what should happen next, that is all l am looking for and isnt Boards supposed to be a place where you can ask these things?

Jequ0n

Get help for your anxiety and insecurities. That’s the only issue here.

KieferFan69

I was going to suggest meditation but I see you’ve mentioned that yourself. If you can get into a routine of meditating every morning you might find it helpful. There are even apps if you need assistance.

Awful what happened. You actually sound quite strong to me. Look after yourself.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118814769#Comment_118814769

It is, but you don’t always get the response you are looking for. You have led us to believe that the disciplinary meeting was about you, when in fact it seems to be investigatory and that there has been no mention of you being disciplined for anything. The investigation must be thorough and fair to the accused, so ruling you out as the person who left the offending article is prudent, because the accused will no doubt say you could be the one who left it there.

It wasn’t a nice experience I’m sure, but hardly a reason to feel humiliated.

mcgragger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118814524#Comment_118814524

Did I say they will act? No, I said the WRC provide free and accurate advice. A phone call. To a qualified person.

All we know is what the OP said and to me it looks like proper procedure wasn't followed at all.

Dont hurt yourself when you are getting off your high horse!!!🙄

Midlands Minnie

The responses l was looking for are all the comments here. I WAS very embarrassed and blindsided because l am shy, older and reserved and l wasn't made aware that l was a suspect nor what was in the cctv. I really cannot make it more clear than l have already stated in my numerous answers to questions people have had. I will take everything on board bar a few replies.

DoctorEdgeWild

Sounds like following procedure to me, we recently had a car damaged in the yard. Got each regular forklift diver into a room to watch the CCTV for anytime a fork passed by the car involved. Seems the fairest way so that nobody can claim they are being treated unfairly. CCTV cleared two of them and showed one of them making the mistake, he hadn't realised so no harm done, we covered the cost of repair ourselves and everyone was happy enough afterwards.

OP, sorry that you are suffering health problems, these are far more important than any job so I wish you the best of luck with them. Worrying is a terrible thing when you're suffering so you can absolutely get through this.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118814873#Comment_118814873

Which proper procedure do you think wasn’t followed? We now know that the op has not been informed that they were the subject of DP. Are you saying the employer should not have investigated this, or should not have asked the op to view CCTV as part of the investigation? What are you basing that on, and what if a colleague accused the OP? You don’t see merit in her employer being able to rule out the op?

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118814873#Comment_118814873

You made a statement which is rubbish: "They are the place that all employers fear more than most", dress it up any want you want....

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118812110#Comment_118812110

Sounds like an horrendously toxic workplace (literally)

On a side note, I know someone with high anxiety who took up a job last year almost full-time remote-working (once a week they have to spend a couple of hours in a small office) and they haven't looked back, complete game-changer for them. For them, it's like 99% of the anxiety was generated purely from the office and associated stress.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118814999#Comment_118814999

You looked a video which you think was about you because you were in it.... is it not possible what others say was video that clearly shows there is no evidence of the 'crime' being committed and is thus the CCTV is of no use.

Midlands Minnie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118815694#Comment_118815694

it is very toxic and spoke to my manager today to say I was taking time off. The problems of finding work, are my age, the county I live in with every job posted gets a lot of replies and there are no jobs other than "fast paced environment" and "high pressure" and "tight deadlines" and most for a little over what I am getting now. Even typing those words is giving me anxiety! I am still looking for work but I would love to work with animals/horses. I guess I just want the easy live as I have done the high pressure bit when I was younger.

Midlands Minnie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118815696#Comment_118815696

I think its best if I ignore you now. Thanks for input.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118814999#Comment_118814999

Hi

I too am in my 50s a woman and seriously unfit and over weight. I too would hate to be sitting at a meeting in a very uncomfortable silence watching footage of myself huffing and puffing and labouring on a staircase.

But you have taken your feelings of embarrassment and annoyance and turned it into something that doesn’t exist.

There is no suggestion anywhere that you are under suspicion, a suspect or anything else except for a witness in an in-house employment disciplinary investigation which you yourself instigated.

Some of the issue appears to be that it is quite clear to you that: A. There has been a serious gross misconduct incident and :B. There is no need for an investigation, it’s clear that the culprit is Mr X as according to you he has previous and there is no other explanation for the turd on the floor.

However the reality is that action most definitely cannot be taken against anyone in respect of such a serious allegation unless there is first of all a thorough investigation and plenty of proof that doesn’t include your suspicions.

I can’t understand why you took it upon yourself to organise for the evidence to be removed the way you did instead of just urgently bringing a managers attention to the situation and alerting other employees to a hazardous area. Incidentally, that cleaner should have refused to clean up on your instructions. She/he was under no obligation.

My advice from here on is that you write to HR and tell them that you would like to be updated on the investigation if possible as you have found the whole process quite stressful and upsetting.

But they might well decide that you don’t need to involve you and you’ll have to accept that.

Midlands Minnie

"There is no suggestion anywhere that you are under suspicion, a suspect or anything else except for a witness in an in-house employment disciplinary investigation which you yourself instigated." and "I can’t understand why you took it upon yourself to organise for the evidence to be removed the way you did instead of just urgently bringing a managers attention to the situation and alerting other employees to a hazardous area. Incidentally, that cleaner should have refused to clean up on your instructions. She/he was under no obligation."

I instigated and organised nothing. I told the supervisor about it and said did she want to come down and see it and she said no, she then wrote it in her daily report and got the cleaner to clean it up. I did not say anywhere that I ordered the cleaner to clean it, I left it to the supervisor. Read my post.

"However the reality is that action most definitely cannot be taken against anyone in respect of such a serious allegation unless there is first of all a thorough investigation and plenty of proof that doesn’t include your suspicions"

As per one of my replies, this is gossip among the staff and he has already been before management about his toilet habits. He also was on the shift before this happened.

"Some of the issue appears to be that it is quite clear to you that: A. There has been a serious gross misconduct incident and :B. There is no need for an investigation"

WHAT? Oh my god, are people not reading my original post? Of course there was going to be investigation, I am not a manager or supervisor, they arranged that and I willingly participated. People seem to see what they want to see and attack the OP who only wants a bit of advice. Your post is very much trying to nitpick and attack my post for asking for advice and shame on you for doing that.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118816163#Comment_118816163

I’ve reread your original post and absolutely, I was wrong in saying that you organised for the cleaner to come and for that I apologise (you seem to have an opinion about wether she was happy to clean up, important enough for you to mention it).

The rest of my post I stand over completely and would continue to encourage you to extricate yourself from this situation by accepting that you are a witness and no more and you don’t have any role to play in bringing this case to a conclusion, and it may not reach the conclusion that you think it should. For your own avoidance of further stressful work place situations in the future I would be inclined to steer clear of reporting incidents which don’t affect you directly. Good night.

Squatman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118816690#Comment_118816690

i dont agree with you or Jim2007. On paper, you are correct. but i can picture a situation orchestrated by legal eagles to put pressure on the OP and intimidate her under the guise of an open "investigation" i absolutely acknowledge that this situation could and likely did happen. i see no reason whatsoever that the team needed to present their video evidence to the OP, as it sound like it doesnt substantiate any claim.

AS regards any legal claim - whilst my experience is limited - i have been on the defending side of a WRC hearing, and can confirm that compensation is awarded on every single case. The OP, if its in their interest will be able to claim constructive dismissal, represent themselves with almost no effort, and come away with a settlement. And all this will happen even though the HR team has a papertrail of following their own disciplinary procedures. Feel free to PM me Op if would have any queries on my admittedly limited experience

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822603#Comment_118822603

Constructive dismissal?

Jesus wept, how could a company carrying out a thorough investigation into a complaint be accused of CD?

You can confirm that every single case brought to the WRC results in an award?

laoisgem

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822659#Comment_118822659

Agreed, the OP isn't even been considered for being their P45 for all we know. The opening post of this tread is very confusing. The fact is the OP is embarrassed because they were seen and heard huffing and puffing and going to and from the bathroom on the CCTV. The OP could very well do with some time away from the office.

Squatman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822659#Comment_118822659

it seems you are quite inexperienced in this field, as am I, however, i reckon i have infinitely more than you, so allow me to explain as best i can...

"Constructive dismissal" due to creating a toxic enviroment where the OP is unable to maintain personal dignity in her place of employment. Treated unfairly and inappropriately, and causing undue stress.

"you can confirm......". i can confirm that i have spoken with 2-3 people managers who have been infront of the WRC and have all had water tight cases and ALL have been lost. I can also confirm that our legel aid, (from a well regarded company) confirmed that the have NEVER won a case in the WRC. if you go to the WRC, its damage limitation, rather than proving innocence or other. And from the companies perspective, they will generally pay out - with an NDA . the WRC is not a legally enforcable court, they give a recommendation, and it can be duly ignored, however, the converse of this is that the case can be taken to the circuit court, where their name can be dragged thru the gutters and they risk accumulating legal costs that outweight the compensation that would be recommended by the WRC

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118814769#Comment_118814769

Video 1 shows the time you entered the area where you found the turd.

Video 2 is just you walking in a door, and then walking out a door a few minutes later if i'm reading it right, what is embarrassing about that??

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822603#Comment_118822603

Well we at least we agree on one thing - "whilst my experience is limited" and how get from "i have been on the defending side of a WRC hearing" to extrapolating: "can confirm that compensation is awarded on every single case" is beyond me.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823330#Comment_118823330

Complete waffle, outrageous waffle actually.

Lets start with what Constructive Dismissal is:

It’s when an employee resigns without providing notice due to a business committing a serious breach of the employment contract.

If an employee contract confirms that any complaints will be investigated and the subject of any DP given legal/fair process, claiming CD just because as the complainant, you are part of that process is ludicrous.

Secondly, any claim for CD will have a better chance of success in the WRC after the employee has exhausted the employers complaints procedure, the irony of that hopefully will not be lost on you.

Regarding your confirmation that awards are always made, a quick google says otherwise. This is just one example:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/worker-who-quit-after-boss-slapped-her-bottom-loses-wrc-case-1.4823779?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fireland%2Firish-news%2Fworker-who-quit-after-boss-slapped-her-bottom-loses-wrc-case-1.4823779

This one is from yesterday:

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/news/luas-security-man-who-rode-childs-bicycle-on-tram-platform-for-11-minutes-loses-unfair-dismissal-claim-41475458.html

Midlands Minnie

No, not reading it correctly at all. I found turd in the corridor, then went to my place of work which is up a flight of steep steps. This was the video of me which had nothing to do with the corridor area. 2nd video of me going into a toilet, not just any door. If a senior member of staff or director had been in my position l doubt very much videos of them being out of breath or filmed going into a toilet would have been shown to room full of people they didn't know.

spaceHopper

I can see why you are upset and why you are getting frustrated with some of the replies here.

My understanding of this is.

               Somebody took a crap of the floor in camera blind spot.

               You found it, reported it and the  cleaner cleaned it up.

               That was the end of it for a while.

               The general manager found out about it and want’s the pooer gone.

               You went to one meeting to give a statement.

               You went to a second meeting which you were told was a disciplinary meeting but believed it wasn’t about you.

               You have been accused of been the guilty party.

                                               “Then my manager said that they had a problem, there were only 3 people who saw the offending item, me who found it, my colleague and the cleaning lady and there the problem lay. So with all eyes on me the insinuation was that I did it. ”

You are going to take sick leave due to the stress that has caused you.

OK my take on this is to do two thing

Get legal advice.

Ask for meeting with the general manager. They are the ones who want somebody punished.  Have clear idea of what you want them to hear. At start tell them this has made you very upset and that you are very nervous, would they mind allowing you to speak before they ask you any questions.

Tell them you were brought into a meeting but were not properly informed that you were the subject of the meeting.

It that meeting CCTV was shown that made you feel embarrassed  and humiliated. The CCTV had little to nothing to do with the incident. You were then wrongly accused of being the guilty party.  

Ask the general manager for their or companies side of it. Ask them do they want to take some time to talk to your manger.

Give the how the last meeting was left you feel a written apology from the company is needed, that can be without admission of wrong doing by the company once it makes clear you are not the guilty party. That was due to poor communication by the manager.

You would also like to see you HR file and any notes relating to you from the meeting as well as emails. If needed you will make a data access request.

This is kind of going nuclear but if you go off sick, you have no idea how that will be viewed by them or how they could exploit it to blame you.

Also not matter who you believe did it – don’t engage in gossip you might be wrong and you doing to them what as been done to you.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823812#Comment_118823812

You’ve made a lot of assumptions there.

1. The op has not said she was the target of the meeting/DP. In fact, she has posted that it has not been said at any time.
2. The op said she felt she felt humiliated because she was out of breathe at the top of the stairs, that is hardly a cause for complaint.
3. The op made a complaint, it was taken seriously and investigated.
4. The op is more than insinuating that she knows who the guilty party is, because he “destroys toilets”.
5. Lastly, unless I missed it, her employer has not accused her of anything, by her own admission she is shy and sensitive, it’s highly possible that the op is just looking for affirmation, I think I read earlier that her partner is a union official (could be wrong) which makes me wonder what extra info would be needed on an anonymous discussion forum.

But ya, apart from all that you are right about everything else.

spaceHopper

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118824630#Comment_118824630

Then why show the CCTV, why was it said "there is problem here..." and if it was disciplinary meeting who was the subject of the meeting. Maybe OP should have it out with their manager first but I'd be inclined to go around them and bring it up with the general manager in way where they have to give clear answers.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118824947#Comment_118824947

If it was a disciplinary meeting, and not an investigatory one. OP has confirmed there was no mention of her being the subject of this, or any other disciplinary meeting. As I said, you made a lot of assumptions.