Church of Ireland - dying a slow death?

frosty123

We'd be lucky if we'd get 20 in our congregation on a Sunday, back in the 80's growing up we' d get on average 40+ on a Sunday...with the church full on Harvest Festivals, Christmas and confirmations etc

Seems like young people have no interest in it, too boring/fuddy duddy?? Is there anything to be done before it's put on life support??

Btw - is it the same across all protestant religions in the south?

Jellybaby_1

Jellybaby_1

(Sorry, don't know what's going on with the reply function) Anyway, I was thinking exactly the same recently. I have been hearing from friends and relatives that their parishes are experiencing the same miserable numbers attending, I've no idea how they keep going at all. However, a few are doing exceptionally well, due I believe, to excellent leadership including excellent Select Vestry membership. If there are problems in a parish I would suggest starting at the top!!!

homer911

I'm happy to say that attendance in my "local" Presbyterian church has bounced back post-covid, but what I have seen is the loss of a number of members being replaced by an influx of new members.

My general impression is that those churches with a formal liturgy are probably suffering the most - a lot of people, especially young people, can no longer relate to this. I also think its a lot to do with the leadership. While God is unchanging, liturgy is just tradition and failing to engage with young people.

What's the standard of Bible teaching in the church? Thought provoking? or have you "heard it all before"?

Jellybaby_1

I have been to churches where there is standing room only, with strong Bible teaching. However, I can also say there are those who have very poor preaching, in fact some parishioners admit to 'switching off' at the moment the sermon starts and that's while physically attending and also online.

Graces7

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118820897#Comment_118820897

I was on an online knitting forum where members got their knitting out in Church when the sermon started...That was in the US.

A non attender here as my immune system is down even before covid, So I am a Solitary. with support.

receivedxqy

It is a true statement, in my opinion. Unfortunately, this church is experiencing hard times right now.

Thinkingaboutit

Monkstown parish church, just looking there afterwards (three Sunday's ago), seemed to have healthy enough numbers, not a vast mob, and that was people there afterwards for some sort of sale, when most would likely have departed for home.

Jellybaby_1

A sale on a Sunday is unusual isn't it? Our numbers are not back to normal yet.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119632413#Comment_119632413

How many services do they have on a Sunday today and how many did they have 20 or 30 years ago?

Jarhead_Tendler

Delighted one of the religions of the planters religion is on the decline

Mod: this kind of divisive sectarian comment, especially as a throw-away one liner, is not welcome on this forum. Do not post in this thread again. (your existing post no. 13 is noted.)

Packrat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119635490#Comment_119635490

Why?

Religion has largely just been used as a means of identifying the "other wans" here over the last hundred years at least.

I'm non-religious and identify as nationalist/republican but I don't celebrate the long slow demise of any particular one.

Besides, this forum isn't for politics.

Be careful what you wish for, the religions in ascent at the moment aren't better, and not all of them are obviously religions at first glance.

Jarhead_Tendler

Exactly they are the other wans as you put it

Thinkingaboutit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119635451#Comment_119635451

Now it's two Eucharists on the first Sunday of every month, plus Wednesday, and usually these are two Eucharists on Sundays with Matins or a Family Service on one Sunday each. That is still a decent frequency for CoI and while there might have been daily Services some time ago (a parishioner might advise), the numbers (to my slight understanding) there are adequate. Abandoned Churches of Ireland, by Corkman Tarquin Blake, does suggest that the numbers of most of those ruinous churches in his book were never healthy in comparison to the local (Roman) Catholic parish. They seemed a bit like a chapel of ease for a landlord, staff and some tenants paid for by the UK Treasury, say roughly 20 to 40 on Sunday, hence unroofing between 20s and 60s as estates disappeared. The Monkstown parish church that Betjeman so loved, and maybe St Mary's Baltinglass, seem healthier than that having a base in local communities.

petronius

I attended a CoI service since COVID rules relaxed and it seemed reasonable in attendence. In recent years there has been an influx of "new" irish which has added to the vibrancy of what was quite an older demographic. I was at an RC mass and there was a noticiable the younger people seemed to be Polish/Ukrainian as well as a South Americans and Asians, I think in you youth the only diversity in the church were the family from the local chip shop.

Vestiapx

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category%3AProtestant_Irish_nationalists

Not all Non Roman Catholic Christians are "Planters" .

The north and the south have very different attitudes and you should understand before you post.

Thinkingaboutit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119657436#Comment_119657436

A good portion of the earlier plantations had a notable English Catholic element whether out of policy under Queen Mary I or to get them out of England under Elizabeth I.

Graces7

Just had a bruising ancounter with the local C of I minister. Being C of E... Puzzled

Remembering an older couple i met when exploring the ruins of rhe ancient abbey at Ross Erilly. One was C of I, the other Catholic.

" We are so few and unless we stay together we will lose everything. "

That is what I have always lived. Deeply upset this week. And saddened. Always been happy to pray and worship with all...

Please pray for me. As I will for you. Thank you .

Dr Karl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119657436#Comment_119657436

When the GFA was being negotiated a lot of the British were unable to get their heads around that Martin Mansergh wasn't a catholic but was a nationalist and member of FF the Republican Party. Catholic doesn't = nationalist/republican or does Protestant = unionist/loyalist.

Jellybaby_1

Politics aside, I wonder if any other CoI members could share their views on the original question i.e. "is the Church of Ireland dying a slow death?" Have you any other suggestions which might improve numbers, attendances even? I visited a country parish a few weeks ago, I remember it being a thriving parish about 20-30 years ago, now hardly a dozen attending and they're managing to keep it going under great pressure. One thing the CoI always did well was 'close community', but it's not there now in some parishes. I've noticed Rectors don't seem to know their parishioners any more, or at least they think they do, but really, they don't.

antiskeptic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119917924#Comment_119917924

I think the issue centres on the death of cultural Christianity. The CoI, like the Catholic Church, centres around political and cultural power. People went to church on the basis of those draws, not because they had gone through any transformative encounter with Christ (born again)

"You must be born again"

And if you are not, then you are not a Christian. So, once the cultural/political/right side of the tracks 'draw' ebbs away, so doth the congregation.

More power, I say.

riffmongous

Demographic problems?

I'm not coi but when I was younger I used to help the local rural parish out with an event and the people in charge were mostly older women.. now not too dissimilar to any rc event organisers, but in comparison to the rc at the event itself their adult children and grandchildren were never there. They'd all moved away as they weren't farmers or trades so they went to the cities or abroad and didn't comeback to the countryside.

This is not meant to be divisive or insensitive - I believe in live and let live. I speak as someone brought up in a Protestant denomination and taught to attend once or twice on Sundays plus other stuff, youth groups, Bible class, etc, but I rarely attend now, I think COVID has got me out of that habitual practice. Two things have happened imo, first a lot of societies were centred around the church and minister / pastor / priest, and for one reason or another that is no longer the case. Second, a lot of the core beliefs of Christianity are, how can I put this, dubious when people have much more ready access to science and opinion nowadays compared to even 20 years ago. I think these things mean young people under 30 are turning away from the churches naturally.

Graces7

That last post reminds me of the old wisdom.. " Jesus is not the Church."

homer911

Being a member of a minority denomination, I reflect on the fact that historically our primary school system was either Roman Catholic or Church of Ireland. These churches used to leverage this position by demanding that children attend church if they wanted to be assured of getting into the school, some of them still do. This was a disgusting practice where the child was attending a minority Christian church eg Presbyterian, Methodist, AOG etc. People are now standing up to these coercive tactics (and we now have more education options) and the minority churches are generally fairing much better as a result.

While I dont doubt that there are many true believers in mainstream churches, I'd be confident in saying that the proportion of true believers in minority churches is a lot higher

The mainstream churches need to get back to living and teaching the faith, not culture or liturgy - its quality, not quantity

Furze99

Yes I'd say dying a slow death and which is a pity since the Church of Ireland is just that and can trace it's roots back to St.Patrick etc.

Jellybaby_1

This is a very interesting discussion. Would it be fair to say that it's because younger people just don't see any opportunity for a social life within their church, and if so, why are the social groups gone, the youth clubs, the hops, the dances, the dinners, the games nights, the parish sports like football that the guys in my family were all involved with in the 50's/60's/70's. It seems a lot of these died out by the 80's. I used to go to youth groups and they were jam packed with teenagers.

looksee

A very great deal of my teenage years was spent at my church (Methodist). I went to services, taught Sunday School, went to bible study, youth club, Girl Guides, 'Sunday Evening Walks', and many more general activities. It was safe and great fun and gave me a lot of opportunities and responsibilities that I would not have had otherwise. We hiked, camped, tried sports, pony trekked, fired a gun (!) (we went to investigate the local army barracks), danced, debated, sang and socialised. There was some very quiet supervision but mostly we organised ourselves.

As my age-group was getting to late teens/early twenties and naturally dispersing there was an influx of younger people into the group. We had always had people joining but they were absorbed into the club as it was. This younger group of 15/16 year olds were completely different. They had no interest in getting involved in organising activities and only wanted to hang around talking/messing and listening to music. Organising stuff was apparently not cool. I left around that time as I was moving away, but I believe the club more or less fizzled out, as JB says, around the 70s. It was strange, as the 'new people' were only a few years younger than us, but there seemed to be a huge personality change quite suddenly. There were huge social changes in the 60s and 70s in England. I remember the 50s being shades of grey, but the 60s were in colour!

I suspect the CofI situation was a bit similar in that the church had an important social role at a time when there was not a great deal of alternative entertainment, and possibly being CofI led to a sense of not really being part of the wider community, a sense of being beleaguered - or maybe from the other side, stand-offish. Stay at home wives had had a social outlet and achieved social standing by their contribution to church events. As more women went out to work they often moved away, had less time for church socialising, and showing off their baking and sewing skills became less significant as they gained a sense of achievement through education and their professional lives. Or of course they simply got older and less active. And of course, for all sorts of reasons, people moved away from religion generally.

The CofI is dying a slow death, as is the Catholic Church, but because the latter is vastly bigger its demise, while dramatic, is not so obvious.

Graces7

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119917924#Comment_119917924

The total lack of any welcome I have had this week in approaching the new C of I rector has saddened me greatly, Closed shop attitude.

Jellybaby_1

I agree with Looksee regarding the shift in the 70's with the 'new' generation of youngsters. It just wasn't cool to be seen going to church activities and I remember a few from my youth group heading off to (horrors!) nightclubs!!!! I can't deny it, I did go to a nightclub once and my experience was to say the least frightening, never to be repeated. Maybe I'm just one of those boring church people! I have to say I have had so much fun within the church groups, and found a lot of friendship there, however, it's dying and I don't see it getting better as most of the youth are gone. On a more optimistic note, the churches embracing newer style of worship are doing well, and hopefully a lot of the CoI youth are heading to those churches instead.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119919164#Comment_119919164

Of course the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland can say the exact same thing about St. Patrick.

The name reflects its status as a (former) established church, same as CoE etc.

Interestingly, when the Anglican church in Wales was disestablished and split off from the CoE, it was not known as the Church of Wales, but the Church in Wales.

The Church of Scotland is Presbyterian.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119921412#Comment_119921412

Maybe in the past there was a desire - or even a need - for social outlets specifically for Protestants?

Of course within living memory there were anti-Protestant boycotts in the Republic of Ireland - and there was much legislation which reflected specifically Catholic teaching.

Nowadays nobody cares what religion (if any) anyone is in a social or work setting but that was not always the case.

My mother's sister married a Protestant man in the late 1960s, that was regarded as rather controversial it seems (I wasn't born then), they eloped to Berlin! Of course Catholics who married Protestants were obliged to promise that any resulting children were brought up as Catholics. No doubt some in the Protestant community regarded "mixed marriages" as a slow death for their community.

road_high

A trend I do notice now amongst COI friends and neighbours (in the south east where there is a traditionally small but strong community) - peers my age now are marrying Catholics which was once frowned upon-the kids are generally being baptised into COI - presumably a few reasons- most young Catholics are massively indifferent and it just “means more” to COI. Also makes sense from a numbers point of view and arguably from a progression in life standpoint

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119925550#Comment_119925550

Without wishing to be pedantic, the Church of Ireland whilst part of the Anglican group of churches, is more or less independent. It has an annual synod which 'legislates' for the church. The synod is made up of bishops, clergy and laity. So it's democratic in nature.

The Roman Catholic Church has bishops etc here but is answerable overall to the pope in Rome and lacks transparency and democracy.

So you can see why Church of Ireland have this strong sense of Irishness.

Hotblack Desiato

Thanks Furze I get what you meant now.

I do find it somewhat humorous when RCs like Mary McAleese seem to think that their church is or should be some sort of democracy. That's never going to happen. I left it long ago but I left faith behind too.

Both of my kids went to the local CoI primary school - it's the only co-ed English language option around here. The school have been OK with opting out of religion but we only did that when the kids wanted to. 20 years ago this school was on the verge of closure but with people seeking a non-RCC option, and immigration of non-RCC Christian families, they have a waiting list now.

From what I can see the CoI parish is on its last legs though despite the school doing well. The rector was off sick for months and religious services at the school were just cancelled with no substitute provided. I've no idea how Sunday services are going.

BingCrosbee

I’m Catholic and I go to mass approx. 5 days a week because I find it is a lovely start to the day. I look around me and the mass 8. 45 am is well attended by lovely people that I know as I live in a small town in the midlands. I would hope the C of E congregation remains strong as religion in a persons life is most important. Of course, some priests have let the side down but it’s important not to tar those wonderful men and women who made a huge contribution to society as a result of their work.

Hotblack Desiato

C of E?

BingCrosbee

OK ….C of I…..sorry for getting it so completely wrong. Is there a difference? Only in name. Henry the 8th is responsible for both persuasions.

Thinkingaboutit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119926472#Comment_119926472

CoI and the Church of England are of the Anglican Communion and so meet at Lambeth palace every year (I think) with ABC chairing. It's far more decentralised than Catholicism.

road_high

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119926056#Comment_119926056

I know here in the South-east they rotate Sunday services amongst the various churches (say 3 or 4) in the Union of Churches/Parishes. So it's possible locals just go along to a neighbouring Union for Sunday service. RC will likely adopt a similar model as Priest numbers fall further.

Jellybaby_1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119926472#Comment_119926472

The CoE services I've seen look quite different to the CoI I know. I'm not sure I'd be happy in a CoE parish. Just goes to show that you can't really judge from the 'outside'. I watched a history programme on the BBC which stated that although Henry VIII broke with the RCC, and became Protestant, he still thought and felt like a Catholic, he didn't just switch overnight. But then, he did what suited himself so he could have been anything really, but still thought like a Catholic. Extraordinary. But again, this is OT and does not answer the OP's question today.

Graces7

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119924012#Comment_119924012

and I have now had my heart broken over this. Just broken. Tears flowing. , Are there no welcoming churches any more... Oonline prayer groups with meaning? REAL Christian companionship? a place to given to just as we are with no ranks or power trips.ls... Heartbroken..

clarnimhurchu

Well, to answer the original topic, I have been exploring the Church of Ireland recently, although I have been atheist since I was a teenager, and I was originally Roman Catholic. I have young children, however, and they are interested in God and Jesus. We visited the closest CofI, and they found it interesting, but it is very traditional. So we visited another close CofI that has traditional services in the church, as well as a contemporary family service every week in the parish hall full of families with young children. I think they make it very relevant to young people there, and I will continue to go as long as my children are interested.

Speedsie

Hi, there is definitely a fall off in attendance at the more ‘traditional’ services, but anecdotally I’ve heard great things about churches where there is a contemporary service as well (think drums, guitars and powerpoint), those are thriving. I’m from a town of about 20,000 people, not sure what proportion would be CoI, but we have a weekly attendance of 20/30 now. Pre-pandemic it would be about 50/60. We only have the traditional service. I’m not sure about attendances in the other churches in the group, but they also have the traditional services.

@BingCrosbee @Thinkingaboutit Re the CoE/CoI thing, the Church of Ireland voted to disestablish in 1869, and as a result became self-governing from 1870 by an annual General Synod. One upshot of this, is the CoI can, and has, revised their Book of Common Prayer (revised in 2004). AFAIK for the CoE to revise their BCP it requires an Act of Parliament (Westminster). It's one reason why people brought up in the CoE (or the Church in Wales which is the Welsh equivalent and disestablished in the 1920s) tend to find the CoI slightly different. CoI is also a little lower in ritual than the CoE.

It’s a bit like when, just over 100 years ago, we in Ireland ‘disestablished’ from the United Kingdom, and set up our own parliament (the Dail). When Jeremy Hunt announces his budget, it will affect people in Surrey, not Cork. 😉

The Lambeth Conference takes place every 10 years, and while the Archbishop of Canterbury chairs, he is very much primus inter pares (first among equals).

There’s more about disestablishment and the CoI on https://www.ireland.anglican.org/our-faith/apck-leaflets/disestablishment  and https://www.ireland.anglican.org/about/welcome-to-disestablishment-150/disestablishment-in-context

https://www.anglicancommunion.org/

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120378953#Comment_120378953

Nitpick: The Church of Ireland didn't vote to disestablish in 1869; the Westminster Parliament voted to disestablish the Church of Ireland. The Church wasn't invited to express a collective view on the question but, if it had been, at the time the dominant view within the Church would probably have been against disestablishment, and the bishops certainly were against it.

Speedsie

Excellent nitpick @Peregrinus and the house of bishops were certainly against it... They lost it as a result.

Also, it gave us the excellent word "antidisestablishmentarianism".

faolteam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058238108/church-of-ireland-dying-a-slow-death

It don't really help the Situation when you see Clergy not even communicating with there older parishoners and this comes from the top down, Unfortunately too its a Business now,and not the purpose it was set out to be . I have even heard of Clergy getting people to do their Service so they can do a bigger more lucrative offer.

Yellow_Fern

The C of I needs to get back to the basics. It needs less progressive and more authentic message. The more traditionalist Catholic parishes are doing fine. So the C of I needs Calvin Robinson figures. People crave the sincerity and reason of traditionalists.

BlueSkyDreams

Religion in general is phasing out in western socities, including Ireland.

The abuse scandals in Ireland especially have likley hastened the decline.

Younger people are not interested in the main.

The decline is in all forms of christianity in Ireland, not just CoI.

Yellow_Fern

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120404711#Comment_120404711

Yes and no. Ireland is in the early stages. If you want to see late stage look at Israel, or Finland or the Netherlands. Basically secular people are not able to replace themselves through the culture of death in our soceity. Although small, conservative groups tend to more fertile and even slightly religious women such as women who say they are christian but don't go to church show the trend to a lesser degree. Even small differences in fertility add up over time and self sustain. not enough to become majorities but certainly not disappear either.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120404779#Comment_120404779

I am not sure what you mean by Secular people are not able to replace themselves.

Do you mean that non religious groups are not having enough children?

If so, the percentage of people identifying as catholic, as well as the absolute numbers, declined between 2011 and 2016.

We will get census data this summer for 2022, but a further decline is likley and thats against a backdrop of a growing population.

Also the majority of people that have to identify as catholic on a census form is obviously far higher than those that actually practice christianity, as evidenced by dwindling church goers in an ever increasing population.