is entering dairying still an option

FintanMcluskey

Net profit €750 a cow.

Are the top suckler men getting near that?

GrasstoMilk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118866222#Comment_118866222

Where are you getting 750€/cow from ?

add in jays deprication (not a cash cost to the system, only used for tax purposes) at 51k he made 634/cow

Siamsa Sessions

Hi OP,

Coming to this late so apologies if it's been mentioned already, but I'd suggest you try to step thru what might be a typical day as a dairy farmer (yes, yes, yes, I know there's no such thing as a typical day!). It might help make the work, the figures, the cows, the parlour, etc. more real.

What time will you put the cows in in the morning? How long will it take to milk them? What time will you get back to your house? Then what? Fertiliser? Fencing? Figuring out why SCC is a little high? Picking out bulls for breeding? Grass walk? Checking calves/heifers? Shifting the fence and setting up this evening's paddock?

Cows back in the parlour at what time? What time will you finish for the day?

I spent about 12 months doing homework on converting but decided against it last year. I didn't have enough ground to go at it full-time and would have had to stay working part-time off-farm. With a young family, I decided there wasn't enough hours in the day to try balance it all.

To try and help others, I put the various questions/issues I asked myself into a website: https://sites.google.com/view/dairyconversion/home

Feel free to send me a DM if you wish. I'm happy to talk at any stage.

And just to confuse things, I'm thinking about converting in 2024 when land my family has leased out reverts to me. I'll have 85-ish acres then and plan to milk no more than 60-70 cows. I'll probably try to set 15-ish acres of spring barley as well. The farm is all in one block but the furtherest away fields are approx. 800m from the parlour location.

I'll be 48 at that stage.

Siamsa Sessions

I haven't looked at the dairy conversion website in a while, but going thru it myself again now, I'd suggest you start with the Lifestyle page: https://sites.google.com/view/dairyconversion/lifestyle

kevthegaff

Vet fees are high Jay, alot of vacinations? Fert is low enough

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118867518#Comment_118867518

Sorry, this like junior cert business all over again.

634 a cow isn’t bad though.

If you could hire some innocent cratur to milk them at reasonable rate ud be laughing

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118867609#Comment_118867609

The pneumonia and lepto vaccines is the cheapest money you will spend.

GrasstoMilk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118867921#Comment_118867921

id be quite the opposite system to jay but paying for every acre we’re farming between rent and mortgage, running a grass based spring calving system

our figure was 120€ /cow more and total milk sales weren’t as high

this is not a dig jay, you’re very clued in but I think you should reevaluate your production model/system

jaymla627

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118867991#Comment_118867991

Their is circa 40k of once off building costs, in 2020 accounts that skews it, along with a disastrous batch of fleck cross heifers that calved down that year out of 20 only 6 made it to end of 1st lactation, their was a 20k loss their alone with lost milk sales…..

Circa 600k been invested here the past 10 years, cow numbers increased from 40-200 this year and debt levels of less then 1000 euro a cow, on a wet farm here, what other system would you suggest I go for when a 150 day fully housed winter is the bare minimum I get away with

straight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118867937#Comment_118867937

Don't use either of them. Just salmonella and rotavirus

jaymla627

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118867609#Comment_118867609

Rota/salmonella/lepto and bvd was been done, had a crypto issue in 2019 aswell so parafour was been used also that year at 15 euro a calf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118868281#Comment_118868281

I guess it depends on what works for you. Always have trouble with pneumonia here

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118867991#Comment_118867991

Are you saying he is going for too many cows?

einn32

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118867921#Comment_118867921

They used call us slaves on farm I worked on in Ireland!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118868967#Comment_118868967

To be honest there is honour in a decent days work that doesn’t show up in a bank account.

Based on the figures above, I am earning way more than a person milking way over 100 cows in my day job. The funny thing about is that I enjoy working with the cattle more than the day job even if there is way less out of it as you don’t have to bullshit cattle and you can’t play Larry goodman

GrasstoMilk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118868161#Comment_118868161

But we’re talking about 2020 to compare like with like jay, my cow numbers have gone up too

You’re going to have some form of building costs every year if you want to keep infrastructure in good repair /to a high standard

weve a fair chunk spent here, money spent every year in the yard and land

ill have have to add in the building costs to mine and see what it looks like

you still had the factory money from the heifers despite no milk sales off them? Not a total loss

despite it all jay, I follow grass based, mainly teagasc template - you’re fairly consistent in your criticism of that system but fact is it works

I’m as well off as you with less milk sales and a lot less bought in feed and a lot simpler system,

all I’m saying is 190k out the gate to buy in feed is a serious amount of money for in my opinion feck all gain at the end of the day, you mightn’t want to hear it but less cows, less milk, less meal would be more profitable for you

K.G.

To be fair to Jay I think he is doing what suits his circumstances best.the central message here is there isn't as much money in milking as alot of people think even lads that are milking. That was even the underlying message from greenfield s and other research farms when you looked at it.i have serious worries about taking on any level of borrowing s to establish a dairy farm,different for an established one but once borrowing s go over 1000 to 1500 cow you are at nothing.one thing to note in jays figure was no labour but maybe its hiding in another category

jaymla627

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118869070#Comment_118869070

What's your stocking rate on milking platform for this year, 4/ha our past that out of curiosity and on the every acre we farm is paid for bit, what % of loanvland repayments/rental payments would your sfp cover on this metric, between sfp going to the ole chap and the profits he makes from a business he stared up a few years ago using this money, theirs another 50k been generated net profit but obviously that's not in my wheelhouse the cow side of the business is standalone but their is more then one way to skin a cat

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118869095#Comment_118869095

I would agree that there is not much money out of milking. First both Jay and GTM are both still paying for expansion stage. I somehow think both will continue to expand if they can. Jay is buying in a lot of feed and GTM as leased or purchased land. When either are finished expand they will generate substantial cash reserves with a company structure.

In OP's case he is not looking at substantial borrowings. In essence he is looking at making a fairly decent living not generating wealth as Nay and GTM are

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118868978#Comment_118868978

As a PAYE worker it very hard to generate wealth. A single person earning 80k/ year will have 1006 in disposable income and pay nearly 28k in deductions. When you earn above 50-60k in any private company you earn it.

Most people earning that sort of cash will have hidden costs such as travel and clothes expenses. Youngest lad is working in a bank he forked out 300 euro for a suit and shirt last week.

Most people in decent jobs will have 10 hour days minimum. Maybe 100/ week in work expenses ( diesel, car expenses, clothes food etc). On food in most higher paid jobs you will end up eating it 1-2 times a week.

At the small medium sized farm scale the amount of personal expenses people can write off can be the equivalent to 100/ week and often double or treble it. That is a 200 euro plus gap compared to a PAYE workers. IMO being self employed is worth 10 k minimum in real income terms.

The amazing thing is a lot to lads do not notice it

straight

There is no right or wrong system, just like there is no right or wrong cow. You just choose whatever system suits you best. Personally, I wouldn't have a jersey or FRX inside the gate but that doesn't mean they're not right for someone else.

My main concern is for the lads that get into dairying for the money and all the lies spouted by media and vested interests.

Milk cows if you like the lifestyle and don't do it to get rich.

Accounts don't always show the full picture especially during expansion or development. One also has to consider the value of the stock, machinery, etc. In the event of I'll health or unforeseen circumstances they could be liquidated easy enough.

Dunedin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118869435#Comment_118869435

Replying to the second part re PAYE worker.

100% agree - huge hidden costs associated for professionals in just attending work and a 10 hour day/50 hour week is far from uncommon. And often a hell of a lot of pressure in a lot of them jobs.

Siamsa Sessions

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118869435#Comment_118869435

I’d agree 100%. Fellas are whinging about the price of fertiliser but the same ones don’t know how much extra in tax they’re paying every year by not learning how their tax returns are added up.

A good accountant who can explain where write-offs and investments can be made to reduce the tax burden is more important than any animal or tractor on a farm. Yet most seem oblivious to the financial side of the business. Granted some accountants are condescending and unapproachable, but remember who’s paying who - shop around until you find an accountant you’re comfortable with and ask them loads of questions.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118870406#Comment_118870406

It's more than just write-off. I paid wages to all my children while going to college it was an average of 10 k/ years for 10 years.

2/3 of motoring expenses cars, tyres servicing fuel, you could go on. Telephone, rubbish, heating oil, electricity there is a write-off on the hem all. Cat and dog food go through the accounts.

You have access to this and equipment to do jobs that few PAYE workers. Spend nearly 1k on a power washers last year. It will do as much around the house as on the farm. Chainsaw nearly everything it dose is related to timber for the house.

As I said it's worth 300/ week in real terms. A thirty K farm income could be the equivalent of 55k in real terms if you had to pay tax on money to spend on items like that.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118870396#Comment_118870396

It’s all work from home now though which is good in the short run but might see outsourcing in the long run

K.G.

A good job would beat this crack into ground anyday.know a good few lads pulling 80 to 100k and they don't have to carry a biro to work.being self employed now is a disaster in ireland now,signing your life away and on the hook for everything

Siamsa Sessions

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118870811#Comment_118870811

Depends on the person and on what’s considered a “good job” these days. People have told me I have a “good job” in the local college/university, but they don’t even know what I do in there - never mind how much I get paid, the hours I do, or who I work with. If I went back to 5 days/week instead of the 3 I’m doing, I’d get close to 60k. But it would cost me my sanity.

Anyone working in an organisation with 100+ people these days has to put up with an awful lot of admin and management types. Fine if that’s what you want to do, but there’s a lot more to any job than the advertised salary

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118871357#Comment_118871357

And if you are not working in a big organisation you will not get the colour of that kinda money.

Ya working from home is great however it's mostly lower paid call center type work.

Most people on better pay have to be mobile. Meetings, being at the end of a phone for 12+ hours a day. Ya you have specialised IT work that pays well that can work from home 3 days a week.

Guards, ESB, teachers, medical professionals are all on the 50 k+ by the time they are 40 ( 20 years into there career) but there is a load of people out there spend there life earning sub 40k/ year that's 617/ week.

I had great jobs from the time I was 40- a few years ago. I got an opportunity to walk out the door three years ago and grabbed it with both hands. After 15-30 years in a lot of them jobs you are burnt out.

With me it was the traveling I used to put 50k kilometres on the company can ever year towards the end. S bit in the private car as well great money but you earn it.

Lads with good jobs often have specific skill sets. They are not doing any repetitive work like putting clusters on and off cows

K.G.

As I always say nobody knows how much money I have in my pocket right and I wouldn't have a clue how much you have in yours

Dunedin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118871544#Comment_118871544

working from home is far from just lower paid call centre workers - quite the opposite really. Generally it’s support functions/non-front line or those that simply could do their work remotely - I know plenty of people earning over €100k that haven’t stood in the office in two years.

it’s generally more of the higher paid jobs as they’re trusted more to work remotely but it does vary by company.

WFH will not remain for 5 days (assuming we stay out of covid) but I do see a hybrid of 3 days office/2 WFH becoming common and most workers will be ok with that.

FintanMcluskey

WFH employees are far more likely to be higher income earners than low paid.

The low paid tend to be service jobs etc that require face to face customer interaction, not WFH.

straight

Money, shmoney. It doesn't really matter that much as long as you have enough.

There is lads out there with hundreds of cows and they can't make ends meet. Plenty lads doing fine with 50.

It's the same with jobs. Some lads with a huge wage but they will never be able to manage it.

I had a job for 20 years and the biggest part I miss is the fact that you could close the door and walk away at the end of your week or to take a 2 to 3 week holiday and not have a care in the world. Self employed is hard going but rewarding at the same time.

Danzy

We all own the same size plot in the long run and in my case it will be in grand red earth with loose stone underneath providing great drainage and warmth in the soil.

Golden vale land at last.

Lime Tree Farm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118872346#Comment_118872346

And you can add "out sick" pay onto that list

Bass Reeves

The average full time worker last year earned around 49k. That takes out the part-time college students earning 10-15k.

The median full-time earnings ( that what the half way point worker earns) is probably back 5-7k from that maybe more.

Take out The ones I mentioned earlier ( guards, medical professionals, teachers, maybe accountants and professions within the public service and there is not too many people earning more than 50k.

Those on 80k+ are in probably in the top 10% of earners. Nobody will pay more than 12-13/hour for putting on and off clusters. If lads think there is plenty of soft jobs out there WFH fir 50k+ per year go find them. You are probably 15-20 years plus in a career and have a work CV to match it.

Like I said been there done that even if working from home them people are putting in the hours.

Have you the skillset to be in the top 20% of private sector workers. These lads did not do mucky mouse arts courses. Most of there jobs are based in larger cities and towns even if working from home. I know a lad that goes to Dublin for two days during the week. Leaves at 5.30 am and is not back until 9 pm the flowing day.

Dunedin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118873054#Comment_118873054

WFH doesn’t mean it’s a soft touch so kick that one to touch. Remember you’ll be doing the exact same job you were doing in the office as WFH with the same boss, same deadlines, challenges, reports, etc. and in the majority of cases without the same facilities such as shared drives, printers, etc.

In a lot of cases, the number of zoom/Teams meetings has increased therefore lessening the time you have to actually do your job. In my team at work, the majority have chosen to remain in the office and not WFH and there are many others in other sectors that are 100% WFH and are dying to get back to the office. There is a huge social aspect to being in work too which people miss and that’s understandable.

But like farming, it’s down to the individual circumstances. Prior to pandemic, I was commuting 2 hours each way to work so you can imagine how I felt having 4 hours not traveling every day. Other considerations are appropriate office space at home, reliable broadband, printer, others in a house WFH too will have an impact.

I do agree about salaries and the perception that because Johnny wears a suit to work and is in an office that he has a good job. Recruitment is a big part of my role and I can tell you that €50k is a good salary and not many are on it.

Mooooo

There's bits of everything out there, we all know people working various jobs at various levels of pay and conditions the key is being content at it.

OP if you and your family are happy to farm, do your research on what ye need to run the house and throw in figures for low prices in to the business plan and if ye can get thru lean years then its a case of making the call to go for it or not.

FintanMcluskey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118873433#Comment_118873433

Recruitment is a big part of my role and I can tell you that €50k is a good salary and not many are on it.

That's odd. I'm in an engineering field based role.

We are recruiting at present, offering 50k +(plus car and unlimited fuel) will get laughed at. And I'm not talking about degree educated candidates here.

55k is the very minimum for anyone who can tell you what a P&ID is and what a PLC is used for.

YellowRattle

Can agree. In my field of work, software engineering, the base salary for someone who has the skills is 80k.

Do not under estimate the current wage inflation.

Dunedin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118874513#Comment_118874513

Average salary in 2022 in Ireland is €44k according to cso. Engineering/construction fields are in a boom again with a lot of head hunting and a genuine skills shortage driving up salaries at present so yes, they would be well north of €50k with lots of sweeteners thrown in. But equally, vast majority of construction is in Dublin and significant commuter cost associated too. When I was commuting to Dublin, it was costing me €200 a week which is €20k gross per year.

for every job at €80k, there’s another ten at €40-50k and as has been said many times here and other threads, it’s all about what works for the individual. I wasn’t thrilled about my 2 hour commute but I knew it was working in the time until I got transfer closer to home (1 hour commute now if you call that close!!) but I’m happy enough with a couple of days WFH and a few in the office

YellowRattle

.

weatherbyfoxer

With the recent announcements of Glanbia taking on new entrants has anyone else started to look hard at converting to milk?..seems to be a future for it once it can be done with the need for derogation

Mooooo

Work out how many cows you can milk stocked at 170 and in each of the bands. Higher band is a low stocking rate of 1.6/ ha, middle band is 1.85/ ha

If in dero it changes to 2.3/ha for the higher band and 2.7/ha for the lower band. ( if dero stays at 250kgs N in your area, likely to drop below 220 in South of the country anyway)

Do all your costings for whatever stocking rates and see how it pans out.

IMO dero rules will trickle down to all stocking rates so wouldn't base anything on those rules not being applied, but depending on the figures to work at derogation stocking rates is the question if the country can't hold on to it

Siamsa Sessions

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119688210#Comment_119688210

It’s still on the agenda for me anyway. I’ll have 85 acres to work with in 2025 (aim is 70 cows) so might start with a smaller herd in 2024 to get ready for scaling up the year after.

I’m in the Glanbia catchment area (and have some shares from back in the day) but will be talking to Arrabawn again before making any decisions.

Having said that, everything is possible when it’s all just in my head at the moment 😀

weatherbyfoxer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119688696#Comment_119688696

Similar here,85 acres will allow you keep 61 cows on the middle band but no replacements..awaiting a teagasc dairy new entrant advisor to call here in the next 2 weeks,have measured up and priced a new basic 12 unit parlour,will need 3 extra bays of slurry storage to get me up to the minimum slurry storage requirements that are coming in the next few years..bank is happy enough lending once I have a 5 year plan and milk contract...glanbia are now taking on new entrants without shares

davidk1394

In the next 5 to 10 years I imagine there will be a big push for either new entrants or people to take over existing farms given the age profile of active farmers in Ireland.

From my own experience of getting into cows and working for dairy farmers the person who has 60 to 120 cows with a low level of borrowing and a decent set up (it doesn't have to be high tech) has the most return. I notice the push for big numbers seems to be souring a lot of farmers I'm talking to and this dry summer was the final straw.

Previous posters have compared being self employed to a PAYE job. The hardest adjustment is every big and little problem is yours, you can't leave it at work or when you go on holidays. Other than that I love what I do. The only little bit of advice I'll give is, find a good relief milker or train someone, take your time and be patient. Give them steady weekend or weekdays and pay them well. A good relief milker is hard got.

There are a lot of fellows milking cows in their 50s and 60s that could benefit from a relatively young fellow going in to partnership with them.

I wonder would that be a runner? It could work out well in terms of knowledge transfer and shared facilities and a younger man to take on a good bit of the physical work.

kevthegaff

Cost of putting in a new 12 unit parlour with shed, wiring, collecting yard is bananas compared to 3 years ago.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119690292#Comment_119690292

By the time they have the young lad paid they be as well off in drystock unless they manage to get him for a bit with the minimum wage.

Local dairy farmer got rid of the cow 3 years ago. Went into calf to stores. He said he is sorry he did not do it 7-8 years ago. His fear was he could not see a living outside of cows

Pinsnbushings

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119690292#Comment_119690292

I've often thought that this could be a runner, but I think in reality you rarely see it working, like on paper I could be an ideal partner for somebody with say 100 to 150 acres in 1 block..I can bring 90 acre of outfarms in small blocks and 60 cubicles plus slurry storage, aswell as labour.

People are difficult though and farming is slow to make arrangements like this..maybe things will change, and I know there are some share farming arrangements and young lads with no land leasing farms. But not many.

I think the majority of those farms will be either changed to drystock or hoovered up by the 300+ cow herds as outfarms, and the ones big enough to milk on will become 2nd, 3rd and 4th units.. seen a few articles about work permits for foreign labour and that's the way these lads be thinking I'd say.

weatherbyfoxer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119690508#Comment_119690508

36k after the 40% tams for new pearson 12 unit and feeders,..a modern secondhand parlour with feeding system would work out near the same by the time it's fitted