Cork to Limerick rail improvements

Paddico

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121444761#Comment_121444761

Oola is 3 miles from Limerick Junction and has a population of 200. No need for any stop between Lmk and LJ for a Cork train apart from the new Ballysimon one

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121461799#Comment_121461799

Didn't realise it was that close.

I wasn't talking about a stop for a "Cork train" though. The idea of a stop in one of the villages would be to commute in to Limerick and would need to involve planning to grow that village which isn't in the government plans just something I would love to see.

Development of Limerick Junction as a place to live and commute without needing to drive would also be welcome in my mind.

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121462032#Comment_121462032

Limerick is a small city with loads of land around it to expand, there's no need to be building new commuter towns 30km away (where, station or no station, everyone would own a car).

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121462227#Comment_121462227

Ya really no need to dwell on it too much. It's a fantasy of mine that is under no consideration from IE or government.

Last thing Limerick needs is to expand out though. Expand up and increase density in the centre is the key.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121452304#Comment_121452304

I've had people refuse to move with my name above the set let alone just a seat res number for the frequent times they don't show the damn things. There is no enforcement

Geuze

AFAIK, the line from LJ to Limerick is part of the TEN-T network?

So it will have to have a linespeed of 160 kph by 2040, see below.

Does it have that linespeed now?

Does all of the Cork mainline have speeds?

https://transport.ec.europa.eu/news-events/news/provisional-agreement-more-sustainable-and-resilient-trans-european-transport-network-brings-europe-2023-12-19_en

Agreed vision for European transport infrastructure

The revised TEN-T will set mandatory targets:

• Passenger railway lines on the TEN-T core and extended core network shall allow trains to travel at 160 km/h or faster by 2040.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121513646#Comment_121513646

I think you forgot to highlight an important word in the quote here:

Passenger railway lines on the TEN-T core and extended core network shall allow trains to travel at 160 km/h or faster by 2040.

The word allow is important here.

The Cork to Dublin line already allows for line speeds of 160km/h, of course there can be speed restrictions in place that mean slower speeds in places, but that is why the word allow is there. Overall the Cork line already meets this requirement. Limerick I think is 100 or 110km/h

LXFlyer

Line speed from Limerick to Killonan Junction is 60 mph (95 km/h) and Killonan Junction to Limerick Junction is 70 mph (110 km/h), subject to speed restrictions where appropriate.

Munurty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121513646#Comment_121513646

LJ to limerick is listed as core rail freight line but not as a core rail passenger line. I don't think it is included in the 160km/h targets.

https://transport.ec.europa.eu/document/download/ff77d210-e40a-4765-805f-ac88e3aba460_en?filename=TEN-T-revision-2023-annex-3.pdf

Cookiemunster

Even if it's not included, if it does get double tracked it will more than likely have the ability to run 160km/h trains.

KrisW1001

Yes, it would be very difficult to justify passenger rail infrastructure spending of this scale that cannot allow at least 160 km/h operation afterwards; a design speed of closer to 200 oon the straighter sections would be more like it, if the plans to provide more direct Cork-Limerick services are anything more than hot air.

The terrain shouldn't be a barrier to higher running speed here: the current line is basically a gently curving line across a flat plain.

goingnowhere

The medium term plan is for 200kph on Dublin Cork

With the exception of Curragh, Portarlington and North Cork the alignment is already good for 200kph, there are restrictions around Thurles/Limerick Junc/Mallow but as you are stopping there anyway they are no factor

Poxyshamrock

Does anyone have an update on the double tracking of Limerick-Limerick Junction? Will we see it happen in 2024?

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121561050#Comment_121561050

I don’t think it has even been submitted for funding yet.

Cookiemunster

Yeah, it's years away from construction.

hans aus dtschl

Some of the delays at LJ for Cork-Limerick services are still very unreasonable.

Even without double-tracking, would it be possible to just get more frequent trains on the line?

For instance:

05:40 Kent departure, 50 minutes wait at LJ

20:25 Kent departure, 53 minutes at LJ

Limerick74

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121565173#Comment_121565173

Pity it's not part of the Pathfinder Programme as it would be open in 2025 like Moyross Station.

namloc1980

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121565261#Comment_121565261

They won't lay on a train for the relatively very small number of people going Cork to Limerick at those times. Those trains are timed to link in with the ex-Heuston trains.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566109#Comment_121566109

Makes sense, but seems a shame.

Between that and the inability to do a full Cork/Galway business commute trip, it looks like they're currently missing an reasonably easy win. The N20 is still bad, so a bit of better scheduling on the rail network might coax a few more people onto the train instead of driving. I'd love to be able to do work to/from, rather than driving. I find the Bus is difficult to do work on.

Limerick74

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566109#Comment_121566109

They could at least show show some initiative (especially for the early morning departure from Cork) and maybe people would start using the Cork - Limerick service. There is sufficient capacity on Lim - LJ line for that now.

LXFlyer

The train that operates the 06:10 Limerick/Limerick Junction then goes to Thurles to operate the 07:45 Thurles to Limerick commuter, so it’s not available.

The next train is the 06:55 ex-Limerick which operates a new connection out of the 06:00 Heuston-Cork back to Limerick from the Junction at 07:31.

You would need another train, and another driver to drive it and I suspect the latter are in short enough supply, as indeed are physical trains first thing in the morning - the entire Limerick fleet is deployed.

Pathing would be tight as there are two trains out of Limerick to Limerick Junction within 15 mins of one another at 06:40 and 06:55.

The evening one would need an extra return working between Limerick Junction and Limerick.

Red Silurian

We are supposedly building a motorway from Croom to Cork. Building a railway line beside the motorway as far as Charleville and connecting to the Cork line there is surely the most obvious solution if we want to promote rail travel between Limerick and Cork?

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566700#Comment_121566700

They have already ruled that out.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566109#Comment_121566109

I know that's the case but I really wish they would add that last connection even if it's just for a few people. It's a balls of a wait and the train before it is very early to be the last proper train between Limerick and Cork.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566403#Comment_121566403

I think we're at cross-purposes to a degree. I absolutely realise that there are real-world driver/stock limitations to what they can do. I was wondering if there were technical engineering limitations in terms of the line.

And if it's just a case of needing more stock and drivers, then surely that process could be started now ahead of any major engineering works on the line? It just seems like such a simple limitation that you can't get city-to-city in Galway to Cork before the start of business. And it seems like a real problem to leave people in LJ for 50 mins. It's not a nice spot to be waiting, or at least it wasn't the last time I had to do it.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566892#Comment_121566892

Well it’s worth understanding why things are the way they are.

It isn’t a simple fix, as there are neither the trains nor the drivers to do it, and it would be a tight pathing between Dromkeen and Killonan even if there were.

To deliver real improvements you need extended double track particularly between Killonan and Dromkeen.

But there have been no moves to secure funding for this yet as far as I am aware.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566774#Comment_121566774

I believe it but it is silly of them. Going via LJ means the best time they can do the 100km from Colbert to Kent is 1h50m - at which speed I might as well drive my own metal box than be stuck on one with others

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566993#Comment_121566993

Not sure how you work that out, a direct Limerick-Cork train would take 1:25 or so at present (with 3 stops), not 1:50.

There’s scope to improve on that.

Hibernicis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121561050#Comment_121561050

No update and no chance of it happening in 2024. And it may not even be double tracking, it could simply be the provision of an additional passing loop or two.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566042#Comment_121566042

There isn't a snowballs chance in hell that Moyross Train station will open in 2025.

These two projects were bundled and Atkins were commissioned in November 2022 to provide the first step in respect of each of them, specifically (1) to identify a preferred location and option for the Moyross station and (2) to review options to enhance capacity on the Limerick-Limerick Junction route. The report from Atkins was due to be completed in the first half of 2023. Nothing has been heard of this since. Nothing. NADA. Zilch.

It is theoretically possible that the Limerick-Limerick Junction route capacity enhancement could be undertaken as an enginering work, especially if the recommendation is to add one or more passing loops rather than double tracking the full length of the line, thus dodging the need for planning/railway order and to some extent fast tracking the work. So there is a possibility that if the Atkins report was available, and if a lot of ifs, buts and maybes fell the right way, and if there was some quick decision making and fund allocation by Iarnrod Eireann, the NTA and DOT, and if neither planning permission nor a railway order was required, and if there were no further intervening variables, objections, injunctions, or appeals, then the Limerick-Limerick Junction route capacity enhancement might just be complete by the end of 2025. Personally, with all those "ifs", I wouldn't be putting too much money on it.

There is no chance of a station being built in Moyross, with all the additional works (car parking, access roads, CPOs etc) without planning and therefore zero chance that that will be complete in 2025. At the rate it's progressing, they would be lucky to get started on the project in that timeframe.

The easiest way to reduce the time taken to travel by train from Cork to Limerick via Limerick Junction is to provide a "no-change" service using dedicated rolling stock. This would knock a decent chunk of the trip time and eliminate the inconvenience and discomfort of detraining and waiting outdoors in Limerick Junction. There are at present no plans to do this. All of the other actions which could reduce the travel time on the Cork-Limerick journey are either aspirational or stuck in planning. (I'm excluding the work which is being undertaken under the Cork Commuter Rail heading as this is unlikely to have any measurable impact on the Cork Limerick service in the foreseeable future).

In summary, the present poor service between Cork and Limerick is set to continue unchanged for at least another couple of years.

The lack of energy, urgency, enthusiasm and most of all the lack of action in respect of projects like these, despite the vapid grandstanding by Ryan and the various agencies involved is dreadfully disappointing, and completely undermines any attempt at modal shift.

cantalach

The train station in Moyross is another rail project that I don’t really get…

The big loop by rail from the proposed location to Colbert Station is ~6.5 km, and due to significant speed restrictions, the expected journey time is 9 minutes (assuming the proposed intermediate stop in Corbally doesn’t happen). But once you get to Colbert, you’re still another 6-7 mins walk from there to what most Limerick people would mean by “city centre”. And then there is the fact that the proposed station isn’t centrally located in Moyross but is at the northern extremity. Considering total door-to-door journey time, you would almost certainly be faster walking the 2.3 km from Watch House Cross to Brown Thomas than getting the train.

The 303 bus on the other hand leaves from Watch House Cross and drops you off outside Brown Thomas. Even without building any dedicated bus infrastructure, it does the journey in 13 mins off-peak and 19 mins peak (per Google Maps journey planner).

I know rail is sexier than bus but it has to make sense.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566109#Comment_121566109

ultimately they are going to have to as there is going to have to be an exceptence that to grow rail services there will have to be services put on at certain times thought to be low travel points in the past, which at the start will have low usership before starting to grow.

the 9 to 5 mindset on short to medium journeys like this just does not work anymore.

or at least they are going to have to do some sort of research which is open to the public to find out the likely demand.

Ireland trains

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121567195#Comment_121567195

To be fair, Cork-Limerick currently has a better service that between many other cities, and interchanging at LJ usually involves walking straight from one train onto another.

Doesn’t this double tracking need to happen before the Foynes line opens, or is there enough capacity to handle the massive flows of freight promised from Foynes. Think IÉ have said it’d take 2 years to award a contract and then 18 months to construct.

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121567632#Comment_121567632

The entire transport agenda for Limerick's future since 2021 seems to be this fabled commuter rail system, that rather than being based on any sound transport planning, appears to be mainly centred around what one local TD fantasises about in the shower. It seems to be a white elephant that has become official Government policy until the next election.

You have local people who know the lay of the land, such as the TUS President, who say that more pragmatic proposals, such as the Northern Distributor Road (which is also a public transport and active travel corridor for the Greenies reading this), which isn't just an outlet for evil motorists to destroy the environment, but rather a journey facilitator for a side of the city that has particularly poor accessibility, mainly due to the river and other geographical reasons.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121568383#Comment_121568383

"Many other cities" if you mean Ireland we don't really have many other cities. Cork to Waterford is the only missing link really as Cork to Limerick would expect to have better links than Limerick to Galway or Waterford and you can't really link Cork to Galway.

Doesn't mean it's a good or bad service though.

Limerick74

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121568383#Comment_121568383

Most changes at Limerick Junction travelling Limerick to Cork have involved walking over the bridge between platforms and waiting in the coldest place in Ireland for 20 minutes. Often there is no indication which platform to transfer to and once we (group of 20 with backpacks) had to retreat back over the bridge again after being told the wrong platform by the Irish rail staff (to be fair I think there was a late change of platforms due to a delayed service). I used to arrange my meetings in Dublin so I could get the direct Dublin to Limerick train, so any direct (no change) service between Cork and Limerick would become the preferred service for me if offered.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121569330#Comment_121569330

Your right about the Cork Limerick connection but the Limerick/LJ to Dublin is actually the better train than the Limerick direct now given that the "direct" has way more stops.

The moving of more and more stations to the Dublin commuter services is great for that service.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121569330#Comment_121569330

Yes when I was last doing the trip regularly I avodided the Limerick train, because of a few bad experiences like that. The Bus was by far easier for me.

Nowadays I'd like to try and work during the journey if possible, so train would be preferable. Direct trains would be an advantage, but shorter transfer delays would be a non-negotiable requirement. There's no way I could justify standing on a platform for 50 minutes.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121567780#Comment_121567780

This is exactly my thinking. I'm not an expert, obviously.

But I can fly at 0600 to get into London, Amsterdam etc for work before 0900 or 1000. But I can't do anything but drive, to travel between Galway and Cork.

ohographite

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121568467#Comment_121568467

Even if the Northern Distributor Road is more essential for Limerick than Moyross Station, that doesn't make it wrong to build both. Obviously we can't and shouldn't build everything, but one train station and a road aren't everything.

Limerick should definitely have more than just one station.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566403#Comment_121566403

Would it be possible to keep a train at LJ overnight to travel into Limerick after the first Cork - Dublin train has arrived, then it could run a service out of Colbert? It would have to do a Lim - LJ run at night, connecting with the last Dublin-Cork/Cork-Dublin trains of the day, to be in position for the next morning.

I know overnighting at LJ would bring its own difficulties and you'd have drivers starting/finishing at LJ but it could allow an early morning service into Limerick within existing resources.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121567015#Comment_121567015

I'm working it out by going to the Irish Rail website and setting my start point as Limerick and my endpoint as Cork

There's roughly 100km between the cities so at 1h50m it's an average speed of 55km/h, even at 1h25m you are looking at an average speed of 70km/h. Both pitiful speeds if you ask me

goingnowhere

Its 128km by rail Limerick to Cork

Ave time is 1:34 to 1:44

If a direct service was provided it would cut 15-20 minutes out of the time, once there is double track Limerick Limerick Junction a direct train every two hours would make a lot of sense Cork - Limerick.

Limerick Limerick Junction upgrade includes a move from 80mph to 100mph and the further improvements on Dublin Cork could take another 5 minutes out of that

That gives you 80kph ave as crow flies or 102kph per the route taken

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121574072#Comment_121574072

The current setup involves a wait at Limerick Junction for connecting trains due to the different arrival times of trains from Cork and Dublin (usually about 15 mins). So 1:50 is not realistic for a direct train.

A direct train with three stops would be about 1:25 to 1:30.

Looking at the average speed, you also have to factor that it would be likely these trains would make three stops en route (Mallow, Charleville and Limerick Junction) - each stop adds three minutes to the overall journey time, which translates to an extra 9 minutes added to the schedule. A train isn’t going to be non-stop like you might be in a car. You have to be realistic in your expectations.

But I do suspect that you could shave at least 5 mins or maybe 10 mins off those journey times with improved infrastructure (elimination of level crossings and permanent speed restrictions).

Incidentally, the distance by rail from Cork to Limerick via Limerick Junction is 130km not 100km.

Red Silurian

Just looking at the Irish Rail website the 15:55 train gets to Cork 1h37m later at 17:32 with a 3 minute change in LJ and stops in Charleville and Mallow. Would the track upgrade in County Limerick really cut 7-12 minutes off this time?

Even still by comparison to driving between the 2 cities (which is the shorter distance of 100km) there is very little savings in time especially when you add the distance between the stations and city centres

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573483#Comment_121573483

The crew and train are only one side of the problem.

The infrastructure is the other.

Looking at it, it just won’t work with the current infrastructure.

The 05:40 Cork-Dublin arrives at Limerick Junction at 06:41. That means the Limerick bound shuttle couldn’t leave until 06:43 which means it cannot get to Dromkeen loop in time to cross the 06:40 Limerick-Dublin train safely.

You also then would not have sufficient time to get from Dromkeen to Killonan Junction (where the double track starts) to cross with the 06:55 Limerick-Limerick Junction train safely - it’s the newly added connection into the 06:00 Heuston-Cork - I suspect demand would be higher for Limerick-Cork than vice versa at this time which this train facilitates.

While for much of the day the current infrastructure between Limerick Junction is just about ok - passing times at Killonan are tight enough, but at peak times it would be challenging to operate more services without extending the double track.

Incidentally the evening set up offers a connection into the last Cork-Dublin train and out of the last Dublin-Cork train from and to Limerick.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121574438#Comment_121574438

It sounds like the upgrades to the LJ-Colbert section will facilitate better connections in that case.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121574551#Comment_121574551

Absolutely - especially at peak times.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121574403#Comment_121574403

Going towards Cork there is recovery time (standard industry practice to allow for delays) added into the journey time of Dublin-Cork times in the Mallow-Cork section (which is why I was looking at trains from Cork and coming up with a faster time - a Limerick-Cork direct train would have a need for less recovery time than a Dublin-Cork one due to the shorter distance travelled).

The journey time savings would be from a combination of:

1) Increased line speed between Limerick and Limerick Junction and potentially eliminating permanent speed restrictions

2) Elimination of permanent speed restrictions on the Dublin-Cork line through the removal or upgrading of seven manned level crossings between Limerick Junction and Mallow.

These combined could improve journey times, but I can only speculate as to the scale of the improvement. It would be of the magnitude of about 6-7 mins between the two I would imagine.

Vanquished

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121568467#Comment_121568467

Vincent Cunnane may be a 'renowned researcher in the field of physical electrochemistry' but he's far from an expert in transport infrastructure or transport planning. He's an Irish man of a certain vintage from rural Donegal so naturally he'd have an affinity with the motor car and an enthusiasm for roads. He was extremely lukewarm about rail or indeed any infrastructure other than the fabled LNDR in a recent interview.

This concept of a dual carriageway ploughing through flood prone farmers fields in rural south east Clare being championed as a 'knowledge corridor' between TUS and UL in the digital age is utterly laughable! One would have to ask what does Cunnane and TUS stand to gain from the extension of the LNDR beyond Knockalisheen road? Their additional land holdings in Coonagh will all be serviced by the road running from the R445 to Knockalisheen road due to open in 2025.

Perhaps they have irons in the fire of the lunatic UL 'new town' plan on remote cow fields in south east Clare which are almost entirely unserviced by infrastructure of any description. Building more car centric transport projects which will inevitably lead to yet further isolated and low density car dependent development is entirely contrary to the national planning framework. It would also potentially be hugely damaging to Limerick city (the city centre in particular). The framework mandates compact growth and the provision of at least 50% of new development within the footprint of existing urban areas. It's little wonder Limerick Council has major concerns about the UL plan. Clare County Council are naturally enthusiastic supporters of the project given that they've been milking the opportunities presented by lands in proximity to Limerick city for decades.

Then there's the matter of the €770 million southern ring road linking all national routes around the city and the underperforming Limerick tunnel which operates at less than half its capacity. I doubt its operators will lie down an let an extended LNDR project further erode their revenue levels. The Moyross train station is a bit of an anomaly for sure but given the fact that it's long been designated as a regeneration area means that its selection is hardly a surprise. Stations at the likes of Raheen, Dooradoyle, Ballysimon and the Parkway would see far greater passenger numbers and need to be delivered also.

gjim

I don't see that any of the existing rail alignments would provide any utility for Limerick commuters. There is little or no demand for the trips between various points in the city that they'd facilitate. And without massive capital investments - track doubling, new stations, new rolling stock, etc., the service frequencies and journey times would be terrible.

The main demand for trips are via the main routes into the centre - which for a fraction of the cost, could be served by 2 or 3 high frequency "BRT-lite" type through-running bus routes like Corbally to Dooradoyle via O'Connell Street, Coonagh Roundabout to Ballysimon Rd, Castletroy/UL to the Dock rd etc. 5 or 10 minute frequencies with Luas style inline stops and tag on/off and multi-door single or artic single-deckers along these routes would provide 10 times the utility for a fraction of the cost - capital and operating. These routes connect the suburban population centres, schools, business parks, hospitals with the central core of the city. And could link with other bus services serving areas between. The existing rail alignments wander through flood plains on the outer periphery.