Clontarf to City Centre Cycle & Bus Priority Project discussion (renamed)

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120490864#Comment_120490864

Do electric vehicles not contribute to congestion?

bk

Do both. London actually has two charges. A congestion charge of £15 per day for all cars (including EV's) and then an extra £12.50 charge if your car isn't a low emissions vehicles (e.g. Euro 6 for Diesels).

Their goal is two fold. Both reduce the amount of congestion and also reduce the amount of pollution from cars that do continue to drive in (which has the knock on effect of promoting newer, more efficient cars like EVs).

loyatemu

Congestion charge requires a lot of infrastructure though, cameras, number plate recognition, call centre etc. It seems an expensive way to crack a nut. Just reallocate road space to active travel and public transport, block off through-routes, remove parking (and levy private parking). The congestion will take care of itself eventually.

Pawwed Rig

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120491858#Comment_120491858

If past experience is anything to go by a congestion charge will be introduced but there will be no resources allocated to enforce it

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120490927#Comment_120490927

I think the rationale for an emissions charge is that it would be politically more palatable (you're not outright creating a barrier for all cars, you're just incentivising certain types of cars). Of course, once you get people used to emission charges it would be a much easier sell to introduce a flat congestion charge.

bk

"Congestion charge requires a lot of infrastructure though, cameras, number plate recognition, call centre etc. It seems an expensive way to crack a nut."

This tech really isn't expensive or difficult any more. I haven't looked at the costs of Londons setup, but I did look at Belfast bus lane cameras. I forget the exact figures, but it costs them something like a couple tens of thousands per year to install and operate, while bringing in something like 4 million in fines per year. More then easily paid for itself.

"Just reallocate road space to active travel and public transport, block off through-routes, remove parking (and levy private parking). The congestion will take care of itself eventually"

This is the alternative option, perhaps even completely ban cars in the core city center. It is certainly fairer as it equally effects all, while congestion charging mostly impact those with less money, while the wealtiest folks can continue to drive in and now have even less traffic in front of them. This is probably the strongest argument against congestion. On the other hand, congestion charging can help fund better public transport if ring fenced for that.

"If past experience is anything to go by a congestion charge will be introduced but there will be no resources allocated to enforce it"

I don't see why that would be the case, the M50 toll is definitely well resourced and enforced, as is the London congestion charging. These systems earn a lot of money for a city, so typically enforcement is well resourced.

cgcsb

It would only take a handful of car bans on city centre streets to dramatically cut congestion. A new levy on multi stories and remove the public parking within the core area.

Expect an overly complex solution that attempts to appease every lobbyist and achieve nothing at all and will be abandoned after a week. Irish solutions.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120491858#Comment_120491858

They've allocated north strand to public transport and bikes. Doesn't stop private cars from taking advantage though. And it slows down busses on that stretch. That's what annoys me most as a driver, when other motorists think it's ok to take advantage of the other motorists who obey traffic rules.

Cameras and number plate recognition isn't that expensive, and would pay for itself in no time.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120492863#Comment_120492863

Not possible, tried many times. There's large camera equipment on Blackhall place set up to just keep motorists from driving through red lights and getting themselves crushed by the luas, purely a mercy mission for slow learning motorists, and that's not been used once, its sitting idle 10 years now. So odds of similar measures aimed at protecting the journey times of public transport being allowed by the powers that be is a non runner.

Of course it's physically possible but the people you're talking about are semi ferral and have the ears of TDs, they don't want a fine for breaking the law.

It all comes back to the fact that we have an almost totally permissive society, there's no consequences for anything and most people have grown up in a consequence free culture. Even extremely violent offenders are permitted to live freely in the community and are even heavily subsidised.

There's lots of reasons for this, lots of people blame it on an extreme reaction to authoritarian regimes of the past like the British and the Vatican but that's where we are now and change doesn't seem to be coming.

bk

While they’re maybe political interference from it happening in the first place. If it is actually installed and rolled out, then it will absolutely be enforced, just like the M50 toll, speed camera vans and parking enforcement all are well enforced.

There would likely be a private company involved in operating it and they will definitely want their cut of the fines for operating it. It would also be very much in the interest of the NTA if the fines and ring fenced to help pay for public transport.

The Blackhall camera only failed because it was just a rubbish single camera trial and worse, it was operated by the Gardai who had zero interest in operating it.

As long as you can get the politicians to change the law to give the NTA the power to operate it, it will work well. Sure, people will moan, just like they did about the M50 toll, but in the end they will pay up.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120499673#Comment_120499673

You're finally getting it!

No Government that contains FF or FG will pass a congestion charge for Dublin ahead of the opening of the Metro and Dart+, you heard that explicitly from Varadkar only two days ago. They already nixed the multi-point tolling on the M50.

And considering Sinn Féin are even more populist than either FF or FG, theres even less chance that a Government with them in it would do it either.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120500289#Comment_120500289

I wouldn't be fussed about bringing in congestion charging to be honest, restricting cars on through routes and removing parking has proven to be more effective.

If the current rules on the current bus and cycle lane network were to be enforced I'd actually be happy enough with that tbh. As it stands we have the NTA applying for planning to put in a series of bus gates, bus lanes and other bus priority measures that it has no real means of implementing.

In theory Cork's Patrick St has an afternoon car ban but that's not observed, dublin's 24hr North quays bus lane is also not observed. These things could really improve public transport over night if they were enforced.

Thelonious Monk

I actually thought they were improving bus lanes in Fairview too under this project. Will there be any difference? I assume on the way out of town side it will just be packed with cars stopping and pulling over and parking etc. in the bus lane? Seems like a missed opportunity, I saw a video the other day of this Van Ness bus lane in San Francisco. It's almost like having a metro running when bus lanes like that are implemented properly. I also think Bus Connects is a waste of money because all they're really doing is widening some roads for all road users.

lucernarian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120500677#Comment_120500677

From what I can tell, it seems the main "improvement" to the bus lanes involves the removal of some bus stops, and I suppose a small extension of the bus lane under the Loop Line Bridge under Amiens Street.

Edit: the experience with the St. Patrick's Drumcondra widening suggests targeted widening like that should help other bus routes. But it seems it will come at a big cost, yes.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120500677#Comment_120500677

Really?

By removing the cyclists from the bus lanes, buses will be able to move more freely.

I think you're focussing on the original plans for BusConnects Core Corridors. The latest versions that have been lodged with ABP see more bus gates being used (Rathmines Road and Old Cabra Road for example), and some roads being reduced to one direction only for general traffic in favour of buses operating in both directions unimpeded (Templeogue Road and Rathgar Road).

There are far fewer examples of roads being widened to fit all users.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120504524#Comment_120504524

It was never bicycles holding up buses in Fairview though. I just think the project is pointless unless the lanes are inaccessible by cars or have bus lane cameras issuing fines, which isn't planned. I'm sure there will be some improvements but do it right or don't bother.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120504565#Comment_120504565

Cyclists were certainly slowing down buses down along North Strand and Amiens Street. That much I am certain about. Buses would have to move out into the traffic lane to overtake them. Now they won't any more.

We shall see what happens on the fines front. It's going to be a slow burn, I suspect, as the politicians realise that they have to work on the electorate, with all the hyperbolic reaction from many people, but I think long term camera enforcement and fines will be inevitable.

markpb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120504565#Comment_120504565

In 2006 I was on by holidays in Paris and marvelled at their physically segregated bus lanes, right through the city centre and in an architecturally appropriate way. In 2023, the only equivalent in Dublin is the Whitehall/R132 bus lane with the greatest collection of flappy bollards the world has ever seen.

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120504620#Comment_120504620

the same cyclists were probably overtaking the buses at every stop (and quite a few of them will probably continue to use the bus lane if it has better priority at junctions than the cycle lane). Lines of taxis and private cars are the real problem and only enforcement will sort out the latter.

spurious

This was the last I saw regarding Westwood and the lease of that 'overflow' car park.

https://www.independent.ie/regionals/dublin/dublin-news/dublin-city-council-to-grant-20-year-lease-for-clontarf-car-park-amid-calls-for-housing-42428968.html

The noise at the moment (almost half past midnight) is particularly bad. While some people just have a detour inconvenience, some of us have to live in the middle of this shite.

Jayuu

Taking my bus home from the North Strand stop yesterday I see that there was some paint down on the outbound side outlining the route of the cycle path. I assume that this means work is going to start of that side of the road soon. Meant to take a photo of it but got distracted by a rare 27 arriving on time that wasn't full to the gills!!!

I'll do it on Tuesday when I'm doing my normal standing for 20 minutes in the hope of getting on a bus that isn't some real life variation of the sardine tin.

JRant

Pandemonium run wild today. Fire brigade station to the five lamps was single lane stop and go. So, obviously it made perfect sense to also have a single lane stop and go at the summerhill/Portland row junction. Traffic chaos all day because of this. Whoever thought that was a good idea needs to take a long hard look at themselves.

Pawwed Rig

How much time did it add to your journey?

JRant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120508908#Comment_120508908

Well I was bringing the mother food shopping this morning and it took 35 minutes to drive from Marino to the North Wall.

Pawwed Rig

Would Clare Hall or The Malahide Road shops not be better for the duration of the works?

cgcsb

If bus connects goes ahead, motorists will have to adjust expectations, the same disruption in fairview will be replicated on 4 main arterial routes at a time.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120508495#Comment_120508495

With any massive project like this there is going to be additional disruption at weekends when traffic is lighter.

It’s frustrating I know but sometimes these things have to happen.

i’d have thought Artane Castle might have been a better option?

Thelonious Monk

I would have went to supervalu killester, a few minutes from Marino

CatInABox

Indeed, weekend works are often much more invasive/extensive, as it doesn't impact on traffic or the city as much. It's obviously not ideal, but there's always going to be a trade off on these kinds of things, i.e. sometimes there is simply no way to avoid causing disruption, so it happens on the weekend to minimise the impact; or sometimes there is a way to avoid the disruption, but at the cost of extending the works for a significant length of time.

I think that in most cases, people are understanding of the need for increased out of hours work, but it of course does have a significant impact on the people that start and end their journeys within the boundary of the works.

bk

Or just walk to Tesco Express in Fairview or C&T Marino depending on where in Marino you are.

Or drive to Lidl Drumcondra or up to the Omni in Santry. Frankly so many options in this area for shopping that avoid driving through Fairview.