National EV Charging Infrastructure Strategy

innrain

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119187932#Comment_119187932

The charger in the picture @J5 Carlow it is a max 350kW with two cars charging at the same time. So maybe not 350 but ~ 150kW each. 1CCS&1CCS/1CHAdeMO

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119188070#Comment_119188070

so only two cars able to charge at the same time?

Also any idea how much they will charge?

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119188503#Comment_119188503

2 cars at once puts it ahead of around 90% of ESB sites. And no the AC doesn't count 😜

Not to thrilled about only a single unit, just need one fault and the whole site is offline

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119188692#Comment_119188692

Hmmmm. I get ya. Not great for the entire M9 corridor if you regularly travel from dublin to waterford and back though!!

cannco253

https://www.electrive.com/2022/06/13/netherlands-already-exhausted-2022-ev-subsidy-pot/

Maybe a grant/share of the allocation for secondhand ev’s (like in the Netherlands) would help with the uptake, but I doubt there are enough funds to go around

Miscreant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119199238#Comment_119199238

Great idea in theory, but I can pretty much guarantee that it would push the price of second hand EVs up by the amount being given in the grant (happens all the time in this country)

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119199238#Comment_119199238

The prices of 2nd hand EVs are high because we don't have enough supply, adding a grant will just put money into the pockets of the original owner and do nothing to increase the numbers. If the goal is to increase the supply of cheaper EVs we'd be better making a government backed 0% loan available that only applied to cars below €35,000

cannco253

I haven’t heard much about this apart from the headline grabbing phase out of ICE.

https://www.rideapart.com/news/591875/eu-proposes-distance-charging-stations/

“With the final Council of Europe meeting of the year taking place in September, it seems like we won’t know the fate of the proposed bill for a few more months.”

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/3b0d8-european-transport-ministers-agree-ambitious-new-climate-targets/#

“It includes the roll out of an extensive network of publicly available electric vehicle (EV) charging facilities, to ensure that EV drivers no longer need to be concerned about range or access to charging points. The Irish Government has already committed €100 million to develop a nationwide network of charging points in rural and urban areas by 2025.”

Another mention of the €100m, buzzword bingo

Dubwat

I'll take your €100M and raise you $7.5B :)

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1136134_federal-ev-charging-network-150-kw-connectors-every-50-miles

The federal government on Thursday further sketched out plans for a national EV charging network to be funded by the Biden administration's infrastructure law.

The Federal Highway Administration (FHWA) released a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking (NPRM) proposing minimum standards for the network, which aims to install 500,000 chargers by 2030.

The FHWA is proposing a minimum of four 150-kw connectors per DC fast-charging site. Those sites should be positioned 50 miles apart, and less than a mile from highways, according to the proposal.

<snip>

This started to take form with the infrastructure bill last November—but it's just the start toward a $7.5B nationwide network of 500,000 chargers.

Patser

Good to see some ambition being shown here, and since it's linked to the Infrastructire review of 2021 hopefully some joined up think.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2023/0118/1349290-cabinet-transport/

When you look at the review set up in 2021 things like Lamp-post charging, pop up chargers etc are all being looked at - as well as case studies in wireless charge pads. So while this is all desperately needed, the fact that things like the upgrade of fast chargers over a relatively short period of 3 years looks to be starting, hopefully these other measures are also in pipeline.

https://assets.gov.ie/220099/2ee020ea-99a6-439e-851b-48d0b410e746.pdf

AndyBoBandy

Lolz

crisco10

My immediate assumption was that by fast they meant 50kW?

Be great if it was >100kW though.

Patser

In report they reference en route chargers as being more than 100Kw, but also reference additional fast chargers of more than 50Kw

the_amazing_raisin

I'm pretty sure there's EU legislation either in force, or coming through soon which basically says the same thing

https://www.electrive.com/2021/07/14/eu-commission-presents-fit-for-55-climate-package/

The government is probably just trying to get ahead of that and say it was their idea

The minimum power of the hub is interesting, at least 300kW per hub with at least 1 charger supplying 150kW

So that immediately puts the Ecars 150+50kW "hub" out of the race

EDIT: Correction, an EU parliament amendment set the target at 600kW per hub with at least one connector capable of supplying 300kW by 2025

Red Silurian

Hate to sound like a skeptic but I'll believe it when I see it

Looking at the route between Limerick and Dublin we have DC chargers online at

Distance From Limerick - Location (# available + Power)

0km - ESB Ballysimon (3 @ 150+50)

20km - Applegreen Birdhill (2 or 8 depending on car @ 50kW)

60km - ESB Moneygall (1 @ 50kW)

120km ESB Portlaoise (3 @ 25 to 50kW)

150km ESB Mayfield (7 or 3 depending on car type @ 150kW)

185km Easygo Naas Starbucks (1 @ 25kW)

185km ESB Naas Tesco (1 @ 50kW)

190km Kill Ionity (4 or 0 depending on car @ 350kW)

205km Newlands X ESB (1 @ 50kW)

I wonder will the govt consider this a success and job done as there is much more than one location every 60km?

AndyBoBandy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120123572#Comment_120123572

So basically the standard eCars ‘hubs’ we currently have….. 150kW unit plus a 50kW unit….

Patser

@the_amazing_raisin EU 'Fit for 55' is referenced in the report. National Governments have to draw up their strategies and can then claim support from the EU scheme

Patser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120123634#Comment_120123634

Probably, but a lot more of them. Plus grants for local private businesses to install their own - particularly places like swimming pools, cinemas, shopping centres etc where people likely spend a few hours.

Also a rather interesting idea to EV sharing, where people with home chargers 'rent' their space out to thers who can't access a charger

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120123646#Comment_120123646

True, but the commission is also proposing to fine member states who don't install chargers

https://www.electrive.com/2022/10/10/eu-parliament-may-punish-delays-in-charging-infrastructure-roll-out/

IMO €1000 per uninstalled charger is way too low, it's cheaper to pay the fine than install the charger. If the fine was per day then there'd be some movement pretty quickly

Interestingly, the commission also wants to place "sanctions" on charging operators who don't adequately maintain the network or allow card payments

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120123564#Comment_120123564

These are definitions they're working from, they are off the mark on the time to charge. I'd expect most sessions on Fast and High Powered chargers are closer to 40-45 mins.

crisco10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120123829#Comment_120123829

Thanks - that's what I was afraid of.

I'm also assuming by "charge" they mean 20% to 80% or similar. So 50kW for 30 mins => 25kWh. This would imply they're assuming less than 50kWh as average battery size, so they're underegging it a tad.

munchkin_utd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120123663#Comment_120123663

good to see the EU leading on this

Its no good to have great incentives in your home country, which are great for a second car or people who dont travel, but then get caught out on holidays abroad with your main car if your destination like France or Italy simply cannot be @rsed putting in the infrastructure.

Ireland will have the same issue in the likes of Galway or Kerry in a few years and I cannot help but think it'll be chaos during holiday time, but at least with ireland being so small you can at least get to your holiday destination even if it becomes a gigantic pain to get the EV topped up at the holiday destination.

These articles are like the Metro North in Dublin or Fusion Power. It's a groundhog day all over again. I'm hoping it will work out but in reality I suspect there will be plenty of €1000 fines paid after 2025. Or perhaps ESBn will be suddenly be able to start providing 600 kW power connections en masse.

"A pessimist won't be disappointed" is all I can think now.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120124133#Comment_120124133

A 600kW power connection? It sounds like an unachievable load on the grid, reality it's the same connection as a mid sized apartment development.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120124350#Comment_120124350

Right, but didn't somebody above mention that the 600 kW/at least one 300 kW capable charger per site was one of the success metrics. Sorry if I misunderstood (= I didn't read the original article). Well, you could also achieve the same in effect by adding local battery storage as a buffer.

irewestlad

I recall seeing on this article that a hub was planned for Oranmore

• ESB keeping electric vehicle charging costs ‘under constant review’

https://www.independent.ie/life/motoring/car-talk/esb-keeping-electric-vehicle-charging-costs-under-constant-review-41966398.html

I don’t see this mentioned in the strategy plan. Anyone know if the Oranmore plan is going ahead?

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120124827#Comment_120124827

It was more in the context of ESBN having to install huge grid connections all over the place. The numbers sound big so it's nice to put them into a relatable perspective. Local battery storage is more of a positive for the operator as it allows them to reduce their maximum import capacity, it's not necessarily needed by the grid operator.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120124878#Comment_120124878

I don't think the National Plan goes down to low level detail like that. I'd love to see the next phase be an outline plan of where the charging locations need to be and then allow open-access to funding for the delivery.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120124827#Comment_120124827

That would be me and that's taken from the latest text of the Alternative Fuels Directive adopted by the EU

It's worth bearing in mind that the directive only applies to the major motorway network, not N roads. So you're defaulting to the most profitable routes from the start

I'm not sure how this will be managed but it's up to the government to implement the strategy. ESBN can try to wriggle their way out of it but they're also quite happy to install megawatt connections when the chequebook comes out

It's also worth saying the requirements increase to 900kW by 2028 I believe, and there may be further increases after that

cannco253

There’s been no further news about Oranmore, I guess the Carnmore “hub” is there now so probably been dropped.

Ionity also plan on something close to Galway but no news since the announcement last year.

Some of the networks are great with announcing new hubs but then tumbleweed. The initial push to build a truly national network was great in 2010's standards, but since about 2015 the pace of expansion has been glacial.

However, I have somewhat high hopes for Tesla and Applegreen, EasyGo have been good with destination charging at hotels etc but we shall see... The biggest issue stopping them expanding is the availability of connections to the grid, and that's the elephant in the room.

KCross

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-41051798.html

The strategy identifies the personas as 'Caroline', the car sharer, 'Tara' the taxi driver, and 'Ruairi', the rural commuter. There is also apartment dweller 'Anna', HGV driver 'Mike', retired urban dweller 'Rachel', and the tourist family, the 'Jacksons'.

Some people were wondering where Anna from eCars went to, she's at home in her apartment waiting for her charge point! 😀

cannco253

New €100m EV charging plan will put pressure on national grid

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2023/01/19/new-100m-plan-for-ev-charging-points-to-exert-further-pressure-on-national-grid/

Berty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120127775#Comment_120127775

True, but as we will have less cars on the roads that are ICE then can't we just burn the excess petrol/diesel to make electricty?

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120127843#Comment_120127843

Well most of our electricity comes from gas or wind (and not the kind that comes from eating a kebab at 2am)

And we apparently have a shortage of power plants (translation, Eirgrid can't plan ahead)

So unfortunately having some extra petrol around won't help

Old diesel

The fundamental problem in my opinion is that this all looks like a project led by people who don't understand EVs or charging tech or the possibilities.....

And certainly don't understand the way the technology is developing.

It reminds me of the thing that happens in Colleges where a student is given an assignment and all they want to achieve is 40 percent pass in the overall module.

You aren't going to get an A grade assignment with that mindset.

That's what this all reminds me of.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120127775#Comment_120127775

Of course it will, look who we have in charge of this at government level, he can't even stay awake long enough to fix the capacity issues we have today

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120128994#Comment_120128994

I generally agree with you and frankly I think your comparison was too generous, it's more like the optional uncredited assignment your lecturer gave for anyone interested

MightyMunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120128104#Comment_120128104

Didn't the successful bidders for the planned power plants drop out and pay the penalty clause? Two new one announced today I think

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120131997#Comment_120131997

Yes you're correct, there were several dropouts

My read of that is that the penalty clause wasn't severe enough to prevent companies just dropping the bid

The cynic in me also suspects that whatever companies were planning to build the power plants either couldn't secure the parts to build them, or saw a more lucrative market elsewhere

cannco253

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/7e874-ev-infrastructure-strategy-documents/

Reading material…

“June will be the first iteration of the National EV Charging Network Plan (EN-Route Charging). Q2 2023”

cannco253

https://www.pobal.ie/shared-island-sports-club-ev-charging-scheme-opens-today/

Developed in partnership with Sports Ireland and Sports Governing Bodies across the island, and administered by Pobal, the scheme will allow sports clubs North and South, to apply to install a fast EV charge point at their grounds providing charging for club members as well as the local community.

Applications will be gathered and assessed by Pobal, who will provide guidance on the scheme generally and who will offer direct support to applicants

Minimum Requirements for Sport Clubs

• Have a 3 Phase electricity connection                                                                                                                                 
• Be the owner of the site or have a suitable leasehold agreement
• Where leasing, have the written permission of the property owner to install EV Charging Points
• Have suitable car-parking spaces – a minimum of 2 car-parking spaces per EV Charging Point
• Be open to the public i.e., open for a minimum of 10 hours per day, at least 5 days a week, all year round (excluding public holidays)
• Provide reasonable facilities such as publicly accessible toilets, access to refreshments, waiting area on site or within 500m of the sports club 

MightyMunster

Those conditions will rule out a lot of places, especially the public toilets etc one.

Doubt there are many GAA, soccer, or rugby clubs that could meet those.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120185435#Comment_120185435

I'd say that's more of a general infrastructure problem and isn't too difficult to fix.

For example the council recently installed some public toilets in the park near me, didn't need much more space then a portacabin and is close enough to the sports pitches that it should meet the requirements

At Ardgillan Castle they've installed some waterless public bathrooms near the car park where there's no mains water supply, so even if the infrastructure is lacking it can be done

And personally I think the days of "go in the bushes" should probably be consigned to the past

Frankly I think the 3 phase supply requirement is likely to cause more issues. I imagine a lot of smaller clubs would be running a single phase supply only

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120185868#Comment_120185868

How do those waterless bogs work for Number 2's?

I think the biggest problem is the 10 hours a day/5 days a week of public opening. Most sports clubs would open only at the weekends and a few late evenings

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120187300#Comment_120187300

I have not tried, and I confess I don't intend to

Biggest problem is no taps so no hand washing. Don't think sanitiser is going to cut it after that

I think the opening hours is regarding the car park and possibly the bathrooms. That's probably doable for a lot of sports clubs since they can lock up the clubhouse but leave the gate open

MightyMunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120187476#Comment_120187476

They might need something to prevent unwanted overnight parking

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120193825#Comment_120193825

Well I guess they could just close the gate overnight and have the car park open at different times to the club?

innrain

but before all these conditions to be met somebody needs to apply. We have experience with the local councils that they couldn't care less. Why would one think the GAA clubs would consider applying. Where is the benefit? Where is the kickback if they don't apply? There is no carrot there is no stick. I'm a cynic I know. Especially when it comes to press releases from politicians or public bodies. Now Sports Ireland has a huge site in Blanch. (nearly as big as Monaco) How many chargers do they have? It is good they give grants though.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120194486#Comment_120194486

You are a cynic 😉

But you're also probably right. There'll be a few of the bigger clubs that apply but the vast majority won't be interested

Unless the scheme was also tied to some sort of club renewal fund then it'll go nowhere