Munster v Leinster

Dave_The_Sheep

Side entry clearouts like Toner's happen every game a dozen times.

It's an unfortunate injury to Coombes, but to call it dirty or imply (which you are) that there was intent to injure a Munster player is bitter at best and frankly insulting to Toner otherwise.

I get it's a night for potentially emotional responses, but a bit of perspective hopefully matures over the next few days.

Here's hoping Coombes injury isn't as serious as the boot looked after the game and that he recovers as quickly as possible. Most of us here want to see him at his peak for Munster and - down the line - for Ireland.

lawrencesummers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118872278#Comment_118872278

Of course they got away with it, isnt that sport in general. You take every inch you can get away with until the ref says otherwise.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118872309#Comment_118872309

Show the replay of that side entry.

It wasn't a slightly misjudged entry.

When Toner got away with that, they didn't put their hands up and tone it down afterwards, nope, toner did the exact same thing several times afterwards, having seen the consequences

Madeoface

It's pro rugby. You stray offside till the ref stops you. You hold on till the ref stops you. You feign injury to stop momentum till the ref stops you. You enter from the side till the ref stops you. Both teams had the same ref. Toner didn't mean to injure anyone, nearly injured himself with a ridiculous carry at one stage. Not the most graceful man to play the game near the floor.

You should watch old tapes of munster circa 2005 to 2009. Borderline on everything....and that was all fine too cos they played the officials. Far cuter than munster now.

TRC10

Munster paid the price for their arrogant team selection. Imagine leaving your best 9 and 10 on the bench for a game against Leinster. By the time he brought them on, the game was already out of reach.

Maybe he was resting them for next weekend? I guess the upside is they'll be fresh to start v Exeter.

Clegg

Leinster have had an issue with resourcing rucks adequately this season and have been turned over a lot. So the loss of Beirne is obviously a huge one for Munster. I think we've done a good job in general in marking Beirne out of games when he was playing for Scarlets and for Munster. But Cloete and Kendellan had enough joy today that Beirne probably would've had a few turnovers if available.

However, when looking at the match as a whole, Munster just didn't do enough to ever threaten Leinster. They couldn't breach Leinsters defensive line through their direct carrying or with their hands. They didn't have players with the physicality, apart from Coombes, to get over the gain line with any sort of regularity. And they definitely lack the ball handling skills to get around a defence, like Leinster did on multiple occasions tonight.

Some bright spots are the impact which Kendellan, Ahern and Casey had when they came on.

Dave_The_Sheep

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118872325#Comment_118872325

First angle.

Second angle.

There you go. Look at that heinous act of thuggery from Toner.

It's an illegal side entry at a ruck at about 55 degrees, which the ref either missed or decided to penalise a different part of the ruck. Happens all the time in games, **** all more than that and has resulted in an unfortunate - hopefully not too bad - injury to Gavin Coombes. If you want to read more into it than that, that's up to you.

Clegg

Gonna preface this by saying I'm not a Munster fan and haven't watched all of their games. For me, De Allende is a very good player and I think he has played well for Munster. But overall I think his signing has been a waste of time for all parties.

He's done well in a lot of games, but he hasn't brought them on to the next level that I'm sure a lot of people hoped he would and that I thought he would. That's not his fault either. He hasn't been given the best platform by his coaches. There's far too much crash ball and not enough subtlety, which I think he can bring if given the chance.

In most games against Leinster, especially in the League Final last year, I think Ringrose and Henshaw showed up De Allende and Farrell badly. In both attack and defence, the Leinster midfield were easily on top. They stifled Munsters attacks and passed their way around their midfield defence.

With a better coaching structure De Allende could have thrived.

clsmooth

Thought Doris was excellent again today. Wishing Coombes a speedy recovery. Think we all want to see him push on and challenge for a starting position in green.

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118872087#Comment_118872087

Oh the poor Munster angels beaten by the big meanies from Leinster. If only everyone was as pure and innocent and the lovely Munster lads. Sure aren’t they all wonderful gentlemen, every last one, bless their souls.

Former Former Former

It was an illegal clear out in the sense he didn't come from the hindmost foot, but there wasn't anything dangerous or dirty about it. Coombes is a very good player but if Munster's chances rested solely on him trucking it up, then they have a bigger problem.

Overall I think Leinster just used the possession they had far more effectively. They had far more options in attack whereas Munster were just too predictable. I appreciate that they were missing key players in the back three but there was very little cutting edge. Munster had 52% possession but had to make nearly twice as many tackles (173) than Leinster (109). That has to take its toll and gaps will always open up.

I thought Ross Byrne had a super game. Had a couple of nice assists and pinned Munster back a few times when they looked to be getting momentum going. He's rock solid in defence too. Jimmy O'Brien had another great game and it will be interesting to see what happens when Larmour is back.

For Munster, I thought Carbery did pretty well. Nothing outstanding but a decent enough game behind a pack that was never on top. Kendellan looks very good and I'd be starting him against Exeter.

Mildly concerned that Leinster have been sold a pup in Jenkins but will need to see more of him. Edit: I see he's down for 18 tackles and none missed so that's impressive.

Overall, the team with the better players won but they're clearly much better coached. I remain fully convinced that JVG is out of his depth as a head coach and his P45 is overdue.

I liked the ref too BTW. Pinged both Conan and Wycherley (?) for late hits that a lot of refs would have allowed, told JGP to stop waving his arms looking for penalties and dealt with the mini-schemozzole well. Probably could have carded someone leading to the DDA try and definitely should have carded Frawley in the last minute but overall very good.

lawred2

There's a sense of inevitability to these games. There's an effort to hype them but there's no real contest between these two at the moment.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118872964#Comment_118872964

“…but there wasn't anything dangerous or dirty about it”

I agree it wasn’t dirty, but it absolutely is dangerous, when you consider the standing ankle of the jackalling player, and the type of injuries an entry like that can cause. Just look at Dan Leavy.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118871841#Comment_118871841

JVG will have a big budget and will buy in a load of SA, then his game plan might work. His issue in Ireland is he wasn't allowed buy in a starting 15 of SA players. In England they don't give a sh*t

RichieRich_89

I'm not so sure what Toner did was illegal. The gate is the width of the tackled player's body on the ground. Ed Byrne's leg sticks out quite far, and it's not all that clear that Toner doesn't come in through this allotted space.

The problem is caused by Dunne and Toner in tandem.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118872964#Comment_118872964

IRFU gave them the choice of Jenkins or nobody. With Toner leaving and no real replacement I don't think they had any real option.

He has been out injured for a long time so it will take time to get up to speed. Also not sure how anyone could shine in that game plan from JVG. For me he should have been sent out the door many many season ago and even more depressing was Munster gave him a new contract etc. The people above him seem to be happy with the style and results.

At some stage is someone in Munster or Ireland going to realise Joey needs to move back to 15 and stop this 10 messing. It's just not working and he looks a shadow of the player he was when at 15 for Leinster when he ripped teams apart. It's not like we don't have options now for 10 in Ireland and Munster

cuttingtimber22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118873069#Comment_118873069

I can agree with a lot of that. Unfortunately JMG is also a poor selector. Does not select on form, selects on reputation.

Akrasia

Toner knew exactly what he was doing

sydthebeat

Toners clean out was fine. He was enough from his own side to be considered legal. The mass of bodies in the ruck wasn't his fault. He's a big big man, and he moved Coombes the same way he did to the other 20 rucks he cleaned on the day. Coombes was unlucky with how his leg was trapped, but these injuries happen on a rugby field unfortunately

As an aside, kendellan was excellent when he came on

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118872087#Comment_118872087

ujjjjjjjjj

Toner clearout looks fine, entered through the gate (just about) and cleared the ruck.

Unfortunate injury to Coombes, hope he is okay but him staying on would have changed little.

Leinster skill level and coaching quality on a different planet to Munster. JVG is no loss and Munster desperately need some quality coaching. Every time the Leinster backs had the ball something either happened or looked like it was going to happen, never had that feeling with Munster and most of their backplay ended up in kick and hope or crabbing sideways or a mistake.

Am I the only one who thought Carbery played alright?

theVersatile

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118873260#Comment_118873260

Not at all - I actually thought he was better than Byrne tbh, and I thought he did better at 10 than 15 which makes some of the "Carbery is a fullback" takes weird.

Some of the talk in this thread is weird about "the way Munster play" when the first half had some of our widest shapes I've ever seen in Limerick. Obviously disappointing to lose AGAIN to these lot but there's stuff there to take away.

If JVG showed this kind of promising play (in big games, specifically; as we always had a bit of Jouez against the cannon fodder teams) in his second season rather than his fifth, I could see the opinion on here being different of him. Unfortunately, he took about three seasons too long to start showing progress and people (probably rightfully, tbf) decided they were sick of him.

arsebiscuits1

Wow I'd say Akrasia has woken up with a sore head this morning.

Coombes foot gets unfortunately trapped under his own man and it's all big mean Leinsters fault.

Honestly. There's red tinted glasses delusion and there's delusion that just requires one to be pitied.

And I know which one this is

arsebiscuits1

A problem that showed it's head last night regarding Casey.

He upped the tempo really well last night and I love his lively play he brings

But the man can't box kick to save his life. I don't know if he just doesn't have the levers or the strength for it but I've yet to see him give genuinely good box kicks on a consistent basis.

2 shocking exits for Munster in the 22 where he got them 10m up the field.

This will consistently hinder his international prospects until he resolves it

Akrasia

The only thing I'm mad about this morning is that Munster did not play as ruthlessly as Leinster did. Leinster broke every law they could and got away with it. Munster let them do it and that is why we lost.

Instead of crying to the referee we should have forced him to make a decision by getting stuck in. When that late hit went in on Carbery, Our lads should have hit leinster back with an even later hit in the next phase. When Murray was tip tackled, our team should have jumped in and started a scrap to force the TMO to card the leinster player instead of whining to the ref

Leinster played dirty all night and we let them. The next time we play I'd rather see us finish with 13 men than have another list of grievances

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118873340#Comment_118873340

I think you might need to watch that again. Leinster weren’t any more or less cynical than Munster. This narrative of Leinster cheating and Munster not is gas, mainly because it’s nonsense. Every professional team cheats. Leinster didn’t win last night because they cheated better. They won because they played rugby better.

Akrasia

Look, there are people on here saying Toners assault on Coombes was perfectly legal. They'll probably also say Lowe dropping Murray on his head was legal too.

So the next time we play Leinster, I want Munster to play just as legally as Leinster do and we can send those leinster players some flowers to brighten up the hospital ward

He's literally named after a vanilla creamed dessert.

Devin 'Assault' Toner

sydthebeat

The penalty count was munster 9 leinster 11.

There was absolutely no version of that match where leinster were the big bad cheaters and Munster were the chaste innocent angels.

The better coached, more skilful, more physical, most clinical team won... And quite easily in the end

aloooof

Ah lads, whatever about anything else, there’s no way Toner’s clear out was fine.

https://twitter.com/patmccarry/status/1510327462193991680?s=21

arsebiscuits1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118873445#Comment_118873445

I'm not sure facts or statistics or even reasoned discussion is going to get through to some people here.

The they might has well have poured concrete under their feet and laid foundations on this hill

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118873493#Comment_118873493

You can clearly see that he cleans out over the tackled player. He literally pushed over his legs. Fair enough the angle isnt 90 degrees, but he doesn't start at 90 degrees to the ruck.

Archers clean out a few minutes later is the epitome of side entry, and he didn't get pinged for that either

lawrencesummers

The part of the game that annoyed me the most was the scrum before halftime.

Munster had ed byrne folded in half and up in the air and the leinster scrum destroyed but had to use the ball and coughed up a penalty which leinster scored. It should have been a peno for the scrum and our lines cleared to halfway

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118873445#Comment_118873445

Lol the incident where Toner took put Coombes was given as a penalty to Leinster, and another penalty was given against Scannell for a perfectly legal jackal turnover, and Lowe dumping Murray on his head and then elbowing him in the throat was completely ignored by the ref. You can see why that statistic made me chuckle

sydthebeat

But they weren't penalties.

Anyway, off you go....

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118873497#Comment_118873497

See what I mean. And those blue tinted glasses are part of the referees official uniform in these fixtures.

Just a fact of life. Munster need to impose themselves physically to force the referee to make a decision. No more whinging, the next time we need to take matters into our own hands and meet fire with fire

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118873445#Comment_118873445

Sadly yes you are correct

lawrencesummers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118873523#Comment_118873523

Ive been a munster fan for a long time.

Good days, bad days. Foreign trips, home games, highs and lows, and its been rare that we have lost to a worse team where actual anger is warranted. Last night was definitely not a case of the best team lost.

And you Sir and you cock eyed interpretation of things are way off.

Your a pity.

Have some class.

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118873493#Comment_118873493

He didn’t come through the gate and so yes there is a side entry issue there. But it wasn’t the only one. The ref was pretty consistent all game on that front. Both sides were at it. Like all sides are on their own ball. Side entry by the attacking team is incredibly common and rarely pinged. It wasn’t even that bad a side entry either though, and probably would have been done but for Archer, who was pinged.

The other comments here (not yours) about assault and elbows to the neck are laughable. It’s just not what happened, but I can’t imagine there’ll be any turning there.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118873493#Comment_118873493

It's just about in from the side. It's a penalty and it's certainly not foul play. It also happens at basically every ruck.

jimdemp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118873523#Comment_118873523

If the ref isnt going to put manners on Lowe then it was up to one of the Munster players. Lowe went out and bullied the Munster team, that was the most embarrassing thing for me.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118873610#Comment_118873610

Agreed, clearly in from the side but I wouldn't call it foul play

Ref wasn't great in general either but he was no Ben Shitehouse

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118873420#Comment_118873420

This is why I keep coming back to boards

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118873493#Comment_118873493

It was an infringement and a pretty marginal one. You'd see that go unnoticed by the ref twenty times a game. It wasn't reckless or dangerous, if Coombes leg was caught he'd have got injured regardless of the angle of entry.

But it gave a couple of people the excuse they needed to bury their heads in the sand about the reality of Munster.

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118873678#Comment_118873678

I actually thought the ref was good. Would have liked to have seen stricter policing of the offside maybe, and there were a few penalties either way that were maybe a bit harsh, but overall he was consistent, clear and managed the game well.

If Toner comes in through the gate I don't think the outcome is any different. Coombes' leg gets trapped under his own player...

But of course big, bad, known for being dirty Devin Toner got him.

lawrencesummers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118873740#Comment_118873740

Clearing out from the side is dangerous. A huge amount of injures result from it. Dan leavy has not been the same player since his injury that was from the side

This gives some background.

World Rugby aims to stamp out side entry and players off feet at breakdown

https://the42.ie/5064084

lawrencesummers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118873759#Comment_118873759

So your acknowledging he didnt come through the gate.

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118873802#Comment_118873802

Like a load of others last night, including, and brace yourself here, Munster players. Nobody would even be mentioning this if every Munster fan boys favourite wasn’t unfortunately injured at in the incident. But it wasn’t the clear out the injured Coombes. It was his leg getting trapped during it that did. An unfortunate thing that happens somewhat regularly.