Munster v Leinster

Lsdrugbyfan · 05-04-2022 8:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118885588#Comment_118885588

He can play both, and he is Munsters 2nd best 8, but if he wants to be an international it will be as a 7.

He wont ever play ahead of Coombes at 8 and eventually he will settle at 7 for Munster to get their strongest backrow on the field.

aloooof · 05-04-2022 8:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118885599#Comment_118885599

We’ll see how it plays out, Hodnett also obviously in the mix. We have solid young back-row options which, for all the talk of mediocre auld lads blocking guys, is exactly why Cloete is being let go.

05-04-2022 8:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118885624#Comment_118885624

Why did Cloete start at the weekend?

Being let go sure is one interpretation anyway.

lawrencesummers · 05-04-2022 8:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118885624#Comment_118885624

Isnt the same true of Jenkins?

For all the talk of people not getting gametime there are Two players leaving at season end and the players who will benefit are locals.

aloooof · 05-04-2022 8:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118885740#Comment_118885740

I’ve said it earlier in the thread; I think, prior to the game on Sat, imo he was having a stronger season overall than Kendellan. (His carrying in particular has seemed improved). Sat was easily Kendellen’s best performance, from what I can recall.

(I’d personally have preferred Kendellen but I can see the reasoning).

aloooof · 05-04-2022 9:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118885746#Comment_118885746

It is, which is why on balance, I’d rather see Ahern get the nod ahead of him for the rest of the season.

But I understand squad makeup will come into it too. Like, for example, with Kleyn injured, we lose an awful lot on maul d, so can see the justification for Jenkins there.

But you’re right, we’re seeing more and more local lads being given opportunities but some would still rather criticise.

TRC10 · 06-04-2022 12:02am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118885278#Comment_118885278

I'm well aware Campbell was playing for the 20s. I meant why hasn't he been seen for Munster? He's clearly good enough. Gallagher is average and was a squad player at Saracens, is going to be a squad player at Bath and he's also not there next season. Haley, while decent, I don't think is anything special.

It was great that all the guys played against Zebre in the URC. And I credited Munster for giving game time to those guys. The problem is, for the big he'll always revert to Scannell, Archer, Cloete, Kleyn, Murray and Carbery, no matter how much better the younger lads play.

And I stand by what I said about Healy at the time. I don't think Healy and Crowley (and Flannery on occasion) being rotated in and out every week is good for either of their development. They need to pick one and back him. Crowley should be kicking himself for not going to La Rochelle.

Akrasia · 06-04-2022 12:24am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118885570#Comment_118885570

My ideal Munster back row is Kendellan at 6, Hodnet at 7, Coombes at 8.

Beirne and Ahern/kleyn at 2nd row

Front row is a mess as our promising players seem to be really struggling with match fitness , but that could change as they mature

Akrasia · 06-04-2022 12:28am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118885843#Comment_118885843

Jenkins played well the week before in his first game back from injury, but fell apart against leinster. Is it psychological or just that leinster stopped him from playing...

Given our injury profile he'll get a 2nd chance in the next 2 games. Hopefully he doesn't let us down

Dubinusa · 06-04-2022 2:41am

It's difficult to get up to speed when you've played so little.

I don't think Exeter are very special. Munster are capable of beating them.

lawrencesummers · 06-04-2022 7:45am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118886721#Comment_118886721

He hasnt been seen for munster because hes been training, playing and drinking his success with the U20’s.

Is anyone asking why the other provincial players in the U20’s squad are not appearing for their provinces? Or maybe its just a ridiculous question

Just because some younger lads do well against a shocking Zebra side doesnt mean they are the right player to start against a recent European champion in their own patch.

Healy and crowley have been “rotated” at times because of injury.

So as the original point was about young players not happy about the lack of opportunity, what young player is being held back by a useless auld lad?

aloooof · 06-04-2022 9:39am

I'll have a go at your post @TRC10.

TL:DR: JVG has played plenty of youth this season, and some of his selections in the big games, while I may not entirely agree with them, I can see the reasoning. But you're holding Munster to a different standard than others.

I'm well aware Campbell was playing for the 20s. I meant why hasn't he been seen for Munster? He's clearly good enough.

I think Lawrence has answered that pretty well above.

Gallagher is average and was a squad player at Saracens, is going to be a squad player at Bath and he's also not there next season.

And he's been a squad player for Munster also. I'd have preferred someone else starting (I said as much before the game) but we're short numbers in the back 3 at the moment.

Haley, while decent, I don't think is anything special.

You're just wrong here. He's been one of our best players for 2-3 seasons now. Take a look at the Ulster game in Jan, for example. Zebo was sent off after 14 mins and Haley was exceptional, having to cover the backfield.

It was great that all the guys played against Zebre in the URC. And I credited Munster for giving game time to those guys.

That's just not true tho. Unless you mean your post yesterday. In which case you're praising them in April for a selection in January... The reality is you've been criticising JVG for not playing youth all season and it doesn't stack up to any scrutiny. The first line of your post yesterday is the first time I've seen you give any praise to Munster for backing young players.

The problem is, for the big he'll always revert to [...] no matter how much better the younger lads play.

I'll take each of the players you've mentioned individually for this, but I'd immediately question the "much better".

Scannell: Barron has jumped KOB this season, but we've seen persistent issues at scrum and lineout with him. Take the previously mentioned Ulster game. Our sub-front row came on on 51 mins (Josh Wycherly, Barron an J. Ryan). We conceded a scrum penalty on 56 mins.
Archer: On balance, I'd prefer Knox to be getting more chances. But I don't think that's because he's been playing better than Archer. He's had a disappointing season, where I was hoping he'd push on.
Cloete: On balance, I'd say Cloete has out-performed Kendellen this season prior to the Leinster game. Even then, Kendellen has 4 starts and 9 sub appearances for 445 mins this season. His equivalent in the Leinster academy (year 2 back-row) are Soroka and O'Brien; they have a combined 3 sub appearances and 50 mins. But I haven't read any criticism there.
Kleyn: He's crucial to our maul D and scrum. Take the Connacht game where he went off injured (and Ahern replaced him). Our maul d fell apart.
Murray and Carbery: I'd largely agree with you here; I'd prefer to see 9. Casey 10. Healy and 15. Carbery this weekend. But the coaches may be thinking with Healy AND Casey, we'll see even an even narrower defensive line. The compression there trying to cover Carbery is what caused us so many problems on Saturday. Having Casey and Healy could compound it further.

And I stand by what I said about Healy at the time. I don't think Healy and Crowley (and Flannery on occasion) being rotated in and out every week is good for either of their development. They need to pick one and back him. Crowley should be kicking himself for not going to La Rochelle.

You're bemoaning their non-selection in big games. But Crowley has featured in 3 European games this season. He played the full 80 v Castres in January. I doubt he'd have gotten that gametime at La Rochelle.

I think I've given a reasonable justification there for why selections may have gone the way they did, even if I don't agree with them all myself either.

But this is now just the same pattern of criticism you brought to the Ireland thread for pretty much all of Farrell's tenure; a few selection decisions haven't gone exactly the way you've wanted and instead of trying to understand them, you just want to hammer people. And you seem to be holding Munster to a different standard than others.

There are plenty of legitimate reasons to criticise JVG this season but him not giving time to young guys, in big games or otherwise, is just not one of them.

aloooof · 06-04-2022 9:50am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118886789#Comment_118886789

Nearly got a try with his first touch, iirc? Hopefully he goes well.

phily2002 · 06-04-2022 10:37am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118887457#Comment_118887457

Would you have Joey at 15 ahead of Haley?

Personally I'd go with Haley, agree with you that he's been one of Munsters best players. While Keenan has made the Irish Jersey his own, if he was injured I think Haley would do a job there no problem.

I think Joey at 15 is a great attacking option but I still think he's lacking a bit of confidence in defense. He was a brilliant defender pre injuries so can hopefully get back there.

aloooof · 06-04-2022 11:12am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118887733#Comment_118887733

I’d still have Haley too. He’s one of the first names on the team sheet for me.

Keenan’s been exceptional for Ireland, and Haley’s lack of versatility is probably going against him, but I don’t think he’d let us down if he got a chance.

snotboogie · 06-04-2022 11:45am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118887955#Comment_118887955

Haley hasn’t had any call up under Farrell right? I think there is good reason why he is nowhere near an Ireland squad, he doesn’t offer a consistent attacking threat and he’s error prone. He is a good provincial level player.

aloooof · 06-04-2022 12:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118888124#Comment_118888124

I'm pretty certain Farrell has called him up to squads (or at least extended ones), tho not recently. I can understand that as, with a view to limited RWC squads, I'd prefer someone like Carbery, Larmour or Lowry say getting the gametime. With Keenan being a nailed on starter, they cover more positions so are more useful in a RWC squad.

We've only ever typically brought 1 dedicated FB in RWC squads. It'd be extremely atypical to bring a sub dedicated FB. That doesn't make Haley a bad player.

But he's an excellent counter-attacker, and extremely solid under the high ball. He's got a great boot as well. What kind of errors do you think he is prone to?

snotboogie · 06-04-2022 10:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118888179#Comment_118888179

I don’t think he is a bad player at all. He’s just not international standard. I think an excellent counter attacker is a bit strong, he carries often and well but he is not a particularly elusive runner and rarely makes clean breaks. Frustratingly I don’t think it’s down to a lack of athletic talent, he has the odd spectacular break in him but its a once or twice in a season event because he doesn’t spot the right running line or make the right decision often enough. Look at his URC stats, 7 clean breaks from 168 carries over the last two seasons, compared to Lowry who had 18 from 218 and Keenan who was 11 from 123. Both are more than twice as likely as Haley to make a clean break on a given carry. He also misses more tackles and gets turned over more often. I don’t have stats on kicking from hand, like you said he has a good boot but is a pretty average decision maker and it’s not uncommon to see him kick out on the full or kick to give the opposition an excellent counter attacking opportunity.

Look I know stats aren’t perfect and there is a lot more behind every number but it mostly matches the eye test for me.

aloooof · 07-04-2022 1:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118891591#Comment_118891591

Ah ya, I don't think he'll be taking Keenan's spot any time soon, but I do think he'd be a solid option if needed. And it originated from talking about Munster and I think he's excellent at that level.

I've had a quick look at the URC stats you mentioned (I think yours are leaving out the Rainbow Cup? Fwiw, I'm often a bit skeptical about these stats sites, I've sometimes seen them come up with completely different numbers, but in any case it's somewhat interesting).

It looks like Keenan and Lowry are certainly more likely to make a clean break, but on average, Haley is making more metres per carry.

Equally, you say he misses more tackles and gets turned over more often, but that doesn't look accurate, particularly the turnover stat. He's missing comparable tackles to Keenan (Lowry is way ahead, interestingly) but he's actually turning over the ball less frequently than both Keenan and Lowry. He has made 27 turnovers vs Lowry and Keenan's 25 and 17 respectively, but he's also played a lot more minutes. A mins-per-turnover stat shows that. (But then equally, I suppose your turnover stat is going to be a function of your number of carries too, to be fair).

Kicking stats are more difficult to come by, but he doesn't strike me as a poor kicker by any means and I can't really remember him kicking it out on the full all that frequently; certainly not as frequently as Zebo did in the early days, say.

Full stats below anyways, with the one's I've mentioned highlighted. (It'd be interesting to get the Euro games in there too but pulling stats from disparate sources makes it a more difficult job).

tvpc · 08-04-2022 11:12pm

Shame coombes will miss the NZ tour because of foul play which leinster got away with. They got away with a red against Connacht in what looks like a broken nose.