Baptising children

jaykay2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118899765#Comment_118899765

Ha. Thankfully the Christian ethos is on it's way out. Not too soon either. Hopefully by the time my child is having kids of her own, religion will have been long removed from schools and all public life. If you want to be religious, do it on your own time. Religion should only be thought in schools in a general sense and covering all religions equally.

Communion, confirmation etc should be done after school or at the weekends if parents want their kids to do these things.

Thankfully, that is the way we are heading even if it will take another while to get there.

Bringing my child away on a holiday is not running away. When the other children are discussing how much money they got or what they bought with their money (which if you are honest, is the only reason kids are excited about these things), my daughter will have something of her own to be excited about/talk about with her friends. She will have more and better memories created on that trip, than with any communion or confirmation.

When she is an adult, if she wanted to get baptised or join another religion of some kind, then she can of course but it will be her own decision and made as an adult. She won't be getting indoctrinated into any religion as a child which is what goes on in the world today, which is also the only reason so many people still call themselves religious in this day and age.

wildwillow

I think you make your wife happy. Life is too short to make something like Baptism cause friction. We all continue the fiction that we are Catholic, as that is what we are programmed to do. Perhaps the next generation will be more honest.

Of course Communion and Confirmation preparation should be done outside of school. Parents who want their children to participate could have after school classes or Sunday school for the children while they attend ceremonies.

Most children go with the flow and the parents go along with the whole circus as it's seen as part of growing up.

I can never remember a time when I actually believed in a God but was an obedient little Catholic until I became an adult and could make my own decisions. I was married in Church as it was what was expected. I accompanied my elderly mother to Mass for a few years as it would upset her if she thought I was an atheist. Her feelings were more important to me than the hypocracy of my attendance. I ticked the no religion box in the last few census forms.

My grandchild is about to make his Communion, he has been to Mass about 10 times in his life. If the teaching took place outside of school, I reckon he wouldn't be participating. Happily he seems to have spent less time than I expected being taught for the day., and losing time on other subjects.

SuperBowserWorld

Where do morals and sustainability come from in an atheist, consumerism, greed driven society ?

Honest question. Cause on average I can't see parents providing this especially if they need to compete to get on or stay on the great Irish property ladder for example.

And before you attack me, their are other religions that allow open interpretation of the meaning of God. But, they do generally provide moral and right instructions for a decent society. Example, the Quakers.

Asking for a friend. 😊

looksee

You seem to be suggesting that religion is needed in order to sustain morality? This would be the moral standard that religion has taught down the ages that cruelly exiled girls and women who became pregnant out of marriage, and with no repercussions for the men involved? That allowed wealthy people to buy their way out of sin? That dictated that poor people should know their place (ie, poverty) 'He ordered their estate, the rich man in his castle, the poor man at his gate'? That supported violence against children in the name of discipline and education? That encouraged sanctimonious judgements against anyone with a different outlook to 'the religious' in society? That withheld food from the starving until they agreed to accept someone else's religious views?

Yes, religion was a way of keeping a population in some sort of order and control in the days before social structures took on the role, and it does give some people a sense of security, irrational and all as it is to put faith in 'someone' to deal with disease and strife, even though that same 'someone' sent it in the first place. However any moral framework for living that it might provide comes at a huge cost to liberty, personal freedom and rationality.

Bobtheman

You are obviously a person who feels deeply. I can understand your disillusionment with the church

I would see baptism as a connection to a belief in God. A possible belief.

It's not all or nothing. Get it done and see what happens.

I would think your local priest had nothing to do with scandals etc or cover ups.

As to badly treating women id say that would have happened without a church. The church did not impose misogyny.

I think you are going over board. You ain't some human rights activist taking a brave stand.

Get the baptism. Make your wife happy and just take it from there.

Bobtheman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118879699#Comment_118879699

You are fully entitled to not baptise your kids. You are not entitled to speak on behalf of those who don't go to church. Just because you don't go to church doesnt mean you don't believe in God.

As to Catholic schools etc. Ultimately religion should go out of primary schools in terms of communion and confirmation. I do think learning about Christianity can do no harm or any religion. It can do no harm.

However secularist zealots are constantly fighting a battle they already won.

The church is not a major force. Which to some extent is sad because we now have a porn drenched culture and a rampant materialistic society where your value is dependent on your income.

Perhaps money over belief was always a struggle but the church was a brake of sorts.

magicbastarder

Where do morals and sustainability come from in an atheist, consumerism, greed driven society ?

the way you've phrased that, intentional or not, you've linked atheism with consumerism and greed, and there's no reason to do so. 'atheism' says nothing on its own about morals, it's a simple statement of lack of belief. ireland was recorded as being 87% catholic in the census in 2006, near the height of the celtic tiger; i don't think it's constructive to link belief with greed and consumerism.

in fact, sustainability is an interesting one; i've read several times about the theory that the biblical tale of god granting man dominion over nature can be argued to have been very problematic in creating our current relationship with the natural world. i suspect it probably would have worked out that way anyway, but as mentioned, i think it's a mistake to draw too strong a link,

gladvimpaker

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118906931#Comment_118906931

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118906598#Comment_118906598

Do people still call themselves Atheist's nowadays ?

SuperBowserWorld

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118906931#Comment_118906931

Yes, I stand corrected. Atheism has nothing to do with consumerism, greed, ... sorry. Sorry for linking it above

Ok, need to rephrase my question ...what can sustain morality in society in 2022 ? I'm talking the big picture, long term, ...

And I'm not fighting any side here. I'm a lapsed Catholic who made incredibly bad choices in life due to my indoctrination, which I can never forgive.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118906969#Comment_118906969

Ireland once had its own legal system, brehon law. Brehon law existed long before Christianity came to Ireland and was clearly not influenced by religion. So, I guess people decide their own morals, not religion.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118906963#Comment_118906963

i call myself an atheist; as it's a simple statement of fact. whether people use it as an identity may be another matter.

looksee

The church is not a major force. Which to some extent is sad because we now have a porn drenched culture and a rampant materialistic society where your value is dependent on your income.

Oh come on! And in the good old days when people went to church and preached virtue there were not at the same time numerous individuals, and groups, practising vice, using under age children in prostitution, using and at the same time blaming prostitutes; creating wealth for themselves by using child labour and underpaid serfs? And endless other examples of using people to create wealth with no consideration for the lesser beings they were using. With all its faults, the world is a much better place today than it was ever before.

magicbastarder

we now have a society where your value is dependent on your income? that's not new.

SuperBowserWorld

I think some societies are fairer than others, but they are fighting an impossible battle against unrestrained capitalism and the rewards and veneration society places in wealth.

Hard questions Christian society need to ask themselves include "is it ok to own 2 houses when many people have none or will never afford one". "Should I be paid a lot of money in a career that directly or indirectly destroys the environment for future generations".

Jesus would have said no to both of these questions.

Baptism is just window dressing if a child is being baptised into a greedy selfish society.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118906598#Comment_118906598

Well I hope you're not expecting any sort of useful morality to come from a child-raping church.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118906881#Comment_118906881

The church is not a major force.

No, they're down to only controlling 89% of taxpayer-funded primary schools these days, while using them free of charge as indoctrination factories. If they were still a major force, that figure might be as high as 90%.

SuperBowserWorld

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118909272#Comment_118909272

No. Hope I cleared that up in the follow on post. I can't see morality leadership coming from anywhere at the moment.

Bobtheman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118909275#Comment_118909275

You are so out of touch its beyond belief. I have taught in secondary schools for decades. Kids coming from these schools by and large have **** all interest or belief

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118910132#Comment_118910132

Is there anything factually incorrect about what he is saying though? The church still has control of tax payer funded primary schools.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118910132#Comment_118910132

Then why waste their time in primary school? Could learn something useful instead, like a language

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118910132#Comment_118910132

i think you're contradicting a point he wasn't making though?

Bobtheman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118910446#Comment_118910446

He said the church controls schools and is an indoctrination factory. I clearly contradicted that point

wench

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118914053#Comment_118914053

Nah, you just proved they're bad at it

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118910132#Comment_118910132

(a) my post was about primary schools, 89% of which still enforce a Catholic "ethos"

(b) "faith formation" as they now call it is a waste of time because in almost all families it is not backed up in the home. Yet teachers are still forced to persist with it, in many cases these teachers don't believe themselves, but they have to inflict this on kids or lose their job. It's nuts. Approx. 10% of primary school contact hours are wasted trying to ram Catholicism down the throats of children, isn't there anything more useful we could be doing with these taxpayer funded education hours? Is there any argument for it other than "it's always been like this" ?

Bobtheman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118910317#Comment_118910317

You said indoctrination. Now after my views you claim this is not working? The indoctrination??

I don't think it works in the sense that most kids don't attend church after 12.

However that might be simplistic. A belief in the golden rule might persist or a general belief in a transcendence.

Certainly any faith is a counter point to the model of gross materialistism that society propagates.

Christianity made Europe and to be fair Europe has more human rights than elsewhere.

Of course hard on secularists will never acknowledge the positive aspects of Christianity.

I spend enough time teaching intellectual morons without seeking more on this site.

Adieu

Hotblack Desiato

LOL the concept of human rights had to be invented to stop Europe trying to destroy the world for the third time within a single century. But "Christian Heritage" eh. I have to concede however that the use of the word "morons" is an instant discussion winner, so congratulations.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118914141#Comment_118914141

What about Ancient Greek philosophy? Plato and the stoic philosophers. I think most humans are naturally empathetic, that is why we have the golden rule in multiple cultures and predating Christianity. Christianity suffocated progress in Europe. We call the time where Christianity was losing it's hold the "Age of Enlightenment".

lawrencesummers

OP if you dont want your children to be catholics then the best course of action is to make then go to mass every sunday.

Forced attendance amongst other things has driven an entire generation of this country away from the church.

looksee

I spend enough time teaching intellectual morons without seeking more on this site.

Yes indeed, that says it all.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118914141#Comment_118914141

Don't know why you are replying to me? I didn't say anything about indoctrination?

As an aside, Human Rights first came about in Ancient Greece, and I'm sure you, not being an intellectual moron like your students, would know that was long before Christianity, so no reason to suggest they are linked.

Pretty sure Christianity didn't 'make Europe ' I think we can also look to ancient Greece and the Roman empire for that.