Baptising children

looksee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118924664#Comment_118924664

You get to have a 'welcome baby' party. Thing is though, you could have that without the baptism, just have a party.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118924642#Comment_118924642

Nobody was talking about secondary schools though, as you were no doubt well aware.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118923255#Comment_118923255

Sure you may aswell do the equivalent ceremonies for Judaism, Islam, Church of Ireland, and whatever it is the Mormons and the Amish do, then keep your distance from all of those organisations also.

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118924664#Comment_118924664

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118924664#Comment_118924664

My children are baptised. And I don’t attend church at all. Only for certain occasions. I don’t see it as at all a waste of time. I just did it to go along with the general and normal sense in thus country. Children in Ireland are generally baptised. People need to stop overreacting, over-thinking and trying too hard to find problems, and problems that stemmed from the past mostly.

Church bashing is just another recent fad that folks have jumped on. People pretending to be bothered by the church.

all the more pathetic that in a marriage and two people conflicted and arguing over whether their children should be baptised. Get over it, and baptise them and live.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118925119#Comment_118925119

The original comment you replied to stated that the OP was dead set against it. It is fine to either baptise or not, it is really up to the parents. Some will go along with it out of a kind of apathy, similar to yourself it seems. Some have real issues with the church and would absolutely not want to.

You mentioned that the church is not what it once was. What do you mean? It is not systematically covering up and facilitating the sexual and physical abuse of children anymore? Well that might be true, but I don't think you can ever come back and be forgiven for that.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118925119#Comment_118925119

The children in my family are not baptised, because no one goes to church and we don't believe in God. Plenty of their friends are not baptised either.

There is no church bashing going on. It's a complete waste of time to baptize kids if they are not going to be part of the church.

would you give them a bar mitzvah?

shesty

@Bobtheman I have deleted your post -I don't think I need to explain why.Kindly avoid trolling.

I have left this thread open to try and promote a reasonable discussion, but some of the posts are heading down a rabbit hole that belongs in the Atheism or Christianity forums.I do not know if the OP is still here (@pi_anon_argh ); I'll leave the thread run a little longer, but please try to keep to the topic of the OPs original query/comment, and avoid the heavy theological discussions.

I understand it can be a difficult line to walk, but I will close the thread if it keeps going round in circles.

S

Bobtheman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118924729#Comment_118924729

Im not absolutely certain funding for all primary schools is the same. I know fee paying private primary schools don't receive state funding.

It might vary further. I don't any of you sit on a BOM

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118921146#Comment_118921146

Do you know how patronage works, with the church appointing the chairperson and one other BOM member?

What legislation are you referring to here? Kids who opt out of religion still have to sit through indoctrination classes, prayers, school masses and more.

Bobtheman

Look I give up. Kids get all the sacraments and come out atheists. Thus calling it indoctrination is silly.

It serves as a counter point in terms of value to the gross materialism and narcissistic culture we are in. Kids might not believe in God after it but they might absorb some non head up me hole values.

There are opt outs for religion. It's up to you to look them up.

magicbastarder

funny. i was taught religion in primary school (and in secondary school, a catholic boys school); they were more interested in teaching us about religion than about morals.

telling a bunch of 16 year old boys that masturbation is a sin is not going to counter any effects of gross materialism and narcissism. however, the weird thing was that the sex ed session we got in primary school (fifth class, i think) was more liberal than anything i heard in religion class in secondary.

looksee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118929948#Comment_118929948

Look I give up. Kids get all the sacraments and come out atheists. Thus calling it indoctrination is silly.

You really are missing the point, aren't you!

It serves as a counter point in terms of value to the gross materialism and narcissistic culture we are in. Kids might not believe in God after it but they might absorb some non head up me hole values.

As already pointed out, getting the sacraments and getting paid for them is not gross materialism? Baptism, First Communion, Confirmation, Weddings, Christmas, Easter...are there any of these that do not involve significant materialism far outweighing the spiritual aspects? Even holding a 'house mass' involved ridiculous levels of redecorating and even building at huge expense, no sense of modesty or humility there, thankfully those are now a thing of the past afaik.

There are opt outs for religion. It's up to you to look them up.

Again, as already argued, religion should be an 'opt-in' in a state funded school, not an opt-out.

By your own arguments the whole business of teaching religion to children in primary school is a waste of time so why not have them engaging in more useful subjects. Including the 'non head up me hole values' in the form of social and cultural classes.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118929948#Comment_118929948

They come out as atheists who tick the Catholic box on the Census and put their own kids through the sacraments again, just because. They'll pepper their conversations with 'thank gods' because apparently their god helps their football team or gives them nice weather for the weekend. They'll do the weddings and funerals in the Church, just because. It is deeply, deeply engrained. As the Jesuits say, "Give me the child for the first seven years and I'll give you the man".

Bobtheman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118930280#Comment_118930280

I think you should see a therapist about this or speak to a politician. This time Im breaking free.

Posting here won't change a thing

cnocbui

My wife wanted our kids baptised, I'm an atheiest, I refused, so they weren't.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118928968#Comment_118928968

Article 44 of the Constitution:

4° Legislation providing state aid for schools shall not discriminate between schools under the management of different religious denominations, nor be such as to affect prejudicially the right of any child to attend a school receiving public money without attending religious instruction at that school.

There's only a handful of primary schools in the country which are not receiving state funding.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118929922#Comment_118929922

Even 40+ years ago with I was in school and we had both Jewish and LDS kids in the class they were not required to attend any type or religious class, mass nor prayers and it was a school run by the Presentation Sisters. So I take this comment with a very large pinch of salt.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118931550#Comment_118931550

I know of cases in the last 10 years where non-Catholics were expected to 'do colouring' during religious classes, to stand for Catholic prayers at multiple occasions during the school day. For school masses, they were told to sit at the back of the church, because there was no teacher in the school to supervise them. At Christmas, their choice was to take part in the nativity play, or to 'do colouring' for all the preparation and rehearsals, and miss the big night out for the school community each Christmas.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118921190#Comment_118921190

And just as simply to explain it to you: You live in a part of the world with a Christian ethos and expecting the population to change its was to accommodate you are unrealistic not matter how you want to dress it up. Now you could try to move to another part of the world, but all you will find is emphasis on another religion. So one way or another your kids will have to figure out how to live in this world and shielding them from it at a time that is all about figuring out how to deal with the world is not helping them.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118931625#Comment_118931625

Funny how the interest in the Christian ethos seems to be absent when it comes to getting out of bed on Sunday morning to go to mass or other service.

Bobtheman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118931569#Comment_118931569

MY God the tyranny of it all. Get real mate. Kids are being exposed to porn before 10. Parents installing TV in bedrooms. Kids watch a ton of bullshit on YouTube. Arrive in with no attention spans

We don't have homes for kids who are being sexualy abused. So why don't you volunteer instead of this virtue signaling??

Or give to a third world charity where kids can't get to a school.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118932409#Comment_118932409

What’s all this got to do with indoctrination in schools?

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118931625#Comment_118931625

Actually I live in a republic which is supposed to respect the human rights of all citizens, the education system does not do this.

It is not normal in a developed country that 95% of taxpayer funded primary schools are controlled by churches.

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118931625#Comment_118931625

Not wanting your children indoctrinated is not 'shielding' them from the world, it's not wanting them indoctrinated.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118932409#Comment_118932409

Seriously. At this stage you've had so many announcements that you're leaving it's beyond funny. You know breaking your word is a sin?

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118932409#Comment_118932409

You have whataboutery down to an art form in that post.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118931625#Comment_118931625

i've had a few drinks so i might struggle a bit to adequately explain my issue with this post. the 'our side won, so get used to it' attitude, for a start, rankles; it's an argument from strength (albeit massively reduced strength, thankfully), and arguments from strength rarely count except to people for whom strength is key, and we've another word for them. the reference to 'well, other parts of the world would impose the same on you' is an *exceptionally* weak defence, it's basically a argument to the lowest common denominator, a 'we're no worse than the rest' approach.

you've offered nothing about why christianity should be taught as the dominant worldview bar from a 'well, we're already here' position; and this is the issue you very often come across when arguing with people who declare as christians. they assume that declaring their argument as being a 'christian' one is itself self-evidently good, because to them being christian is the default 'good' position. whereas for the rest of us, 'christian' just means 'followers of christ'. the word 'judaism', for example, isn't nearly as loaded with meaning as the word 'christianity' is, in the sense that judaism is used to describe a religion, but christianity is often used to describe virtue. but the meanings are often confused.

anyway, long story short; if jesus was the son of god, why wasn't he able to offer some practical, useful advice for humanity? such as 'hey lads, after you have a ****, wash your hands, trust me, it's good advice'? christianity was basically reheated morals which were already knocking about, but crucially, wrapped up in a good story.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118933633#Comment_118933633

To make is simple for you...

I'm not religious. I'm just pointing out that expecting the country to change is entire perspective to accommodate you and then getting all upset when it doesn't is foolish.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118933495#Comment_118933495

Shielding your children for the real world at a time when they should be learning about how to deal with it in a more forgiving environment is not helping you children. One way or other kids have to learn to living in their environment and doing so as kids and young adults is the time to do it.

looksee

I am struggling to understand the argument about 'shielding'. Are posters saying that religion is something that is problematic but children should not be shielded from it as they need to learn to cope with issues? Does this same argument extend to exposing children to other problematic situations, such as cruelty, violence, trauma etc in order to help them learn to deal with them?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118933960#Comment_118933960

It is absolutely possible to teach children ABOUT the world, about religion, without indoctrinating them IN religion. Indoctrination is a choice, not an inevitability.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118931484#Comment_118931484

Schools that do not receive State funding do so by choice. (Or they might alternatively not receive it if they do not qualify in relation to standards etc).

I'm not sure why your quoting of the Constitution is trying to say here. You may be misunderstanding it. That Article just says that the legislation which provides public funding cannot discriminate between different religions, or none. So you can set up an "atheist school" tomorrow and be subject to the exact same legislation and rules governing funding as the local Catholic or Protestant School.

The Supreme Court has found that provision of funding to denominational schools does not amount to endowment of religion (Most people who try to "argue" some point about the Constitution for schools try to rely on 42.2.2). And the Article that you quote was used as a basis for that decision.

Bobtheman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118933564#Comment_118933564

That is being simplistic. It's just if people really think this is important they have their heads up there backsides in terms of what Irish children really need. If you think children having to colour during religion class is terrible you need to get your head from your arse.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118941998#Comment_118941998

Except it’s not just during religion class.

Bobtheman

There are much more important issues for children today. Chronically bad parenting and the expectation that schools can fill in the gap being one.

I doubt any of the above posters have ever done anything for kids. Anything beyond things that benefit their own kids.

I doubt they ever got off their pub arses and even tackled a BOM on their small minded issues

HazeDoll

Fascinated by Bobtheman's contributions.

I agree that bad parenting has resulted in schools being expected to fill all the gaps in children's non-academic education, and this is the biggest issue at both primary and secondary.

However, I don't see why this means we should allow one faith (which has, like so many belief systems, a very VERY sketchy record with vulnerable groups) to pervade our education system.

Are you saying we should deal with religion once everything else has been solved? Why not try to tackle more than one thing at once?

Or are you saying that it's such a lost cause we should just leave it?

You clearly feel very strongly about it, judging by the number of times you have stormed off only to come darting back again. I just don't get any of your logic.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118942202#Comment_118942202

This is pure whataboutery. You have no idea what any of the posters do. You have an awful attitude problem. It is fairly typical of teachers online as well I might add. It is almost as if you are talking to children rather than other adults. I think in your case it is coming from feeling threatened by people moving away from religion, especially seeing as you are a religion teacher in secondary school.

guyfo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058240122/baptising-children

You clearly have done your research and are looking at the whole baptism thing objectively, what you are doing by baptising the child is promising to brainwash them towards a certain ideology. It's literally what a baptism is.

You are promising to not let your child make their own decisions, and you can guarantee that you will have to confirm your child to that religion before they are able to make the conscious decision themselves.

What the hell is so wrong with letting a person grow up and make their own decisions... I don't understand why so many younger people in this day and age are so bloody backwards when it comes to religion.

magicbastarder

You are promising to not let your child make their own decisions, and you can guarantee that you will have to confirm your child to that religion before they are able to make the conscious decision themselves.

the thing is, most people don't do this; but that just exposes the futility of baptism, it's an empty gesture people are making for the sake of tradition, or family peace/politics.

if i was catholic, i'd be a bit cheesed that people were using what should be the most significant religious event of their kids lives for not much more than a photo op, in many cases.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118942202#Comment_118942202

Interesting to see the weakness of your position exposed, as you play the man, not the ball, making personal attacks based on your assumptions, which miss the target widely, in my case at least.

Bobtheman

To be fair you i don't know you personally but in the majority of cases you are talking keyboard warriors.

This is such a first world issue and even here it's so miniscule compared to the wider issues out there.

Bobtheman

looksee

Well this keyboard warrior served on the BoM for several years and of two different schools, as Parents' Representative, despite my non-Catholicism being common knowledge.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118942622#Comment_118942622

It’s an online discussion board. We’re all keyboard warriors, including yourself.

You seem to have run out of arguments, if all you have left is that it’s not the biggest issue in the world today.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118936042#Comment_118936042

It was to show that Bobtheman's claims about the funding of different ethos primary schools were nonsense.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118942622#Comment_118942622

So if religion is so unimportant, why on earth are we spending 10% of the primary school day on it?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118942863#Comment_118942863

I still don't follow what you are trying to say.

Bobtheman said not all primary schools receive funding - ar at least that not all have to receive funding. That is correct. The Article you quote from the Constitution just lays down conditions for ones that do. It doesn't state that all and any must receive funding. If you set up your own "home school" for a few of your own kids, you won't receive funding for example. Even though you might ostensibly claim to have set up a private school

In fact, that Article can be taken as evidence of his point. It is possible to discriminate based on religion, but only if you do not receive State funding. Ergo, not all schools necessarily have to receive the same funding.

Hotblack Desiato

So what? Only a tiny number of primary schools don't receive state funding. If they do then they have to meet requirements in relation to curriculum, etc. which is only fair. Bob made a false claim that different "ethos" primary schools within the state system get different levels of funding, they don't.

Bobtheman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118942479#Comment_118942479

I don't regard it as a weakness. It's ludicrous that people like you-who genuinely know **** all about whats going on in child welfare issues think this is important. Very sad and tragic

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118947367#Comment_118947367

For the second time in two days, you have absolutely no idea what I know or don’t know about child welfare issues.

But you’re making it more and more obvious that you’ve long exhausted any rational discussion here.