Ukrainian refugees in Ireland - Megathread

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119449018#Comment_119449018

But it’s simply not true that any benefits Irish children are getting is because we as parents worked hard and paid taxes, so our society would be better for it. The reason Irish children get any benefits at all is because the State is obligated to provide for them.

I don’t think we can invite Ukrainians in and take all those benefits, so I’m not one of the Irish people you’re referring to who also happens to be a parent who has also benefited from not having to fund my own primary and secondary education. Funded my own third level education alright, when many other students didn’t and were dependent upon their application for grant funding being approved.

While I appreciate your suggestions as to how I can help, I’m perfectly capable of determining for myself how I can help anyone, regardless of their nationality, social or citizenship status. I’m also capable of lobbying Government to provide more help to support people whom I determine are in need of support. That right is not limited by any sort of constraints whatsoever.

I don’t have to go selling my house or giving away all my savings or anything else. I don’t even have to sell my first born child, tempting and all as it might be at times, in order to fund his, or the education of any other parents children either. Again, presenting things as a false dilemma is simply misleading - it’s not as though anyone is limited to only two choices and if we support one group of people, we can’t support another. As a nation we can do both, easily, have been doing so since the foundation of the State, and that’s a good thing too that we don’t pour all our resources into one single issue at the expense of anything or anyone else.

I’m not including you or anyone else in any virtue signalling, any more than I’m sure you aren’t going to exclude me as an Irish citizen, taxpayer and parent, from your own virtue signalling and far more myopic than my own world view. Just because I only have the one eye doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with my nose, and I know bullshìt when I smell it.

Icsics

As soon as the Govt decided to allow refugees in without papers it opened the floodgates. Of course there are genuine war refugees, but many more are opportunistic. It is well known now how good the system is here. There should be some sort of processing centre set up in Europe, it is too late when they arrive here. Housing, education, healthcare will all be under severe pressure in Sept, if not already.

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119449109#Comment_119449109

The ‘state’ is us, where do you think that money comes from ?

Subzero3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119449131#Comment_119449131

Who cares about housing & health pressures when we can all hold blue and yellow flags and float on unicorns. The crisis we Irish people face just means we are all racist. We need to sacrifice everything we ever build up in this state because some virtual signallers, who believe in forever wars are running the shxt show.

Backstreet Moyes

If the majority of Ukraine is not at war why are we not giving them that 3 billion to build houses in Ukraine where the war is not happening?

Surely it's better for them to stay in their own country in a house, instead of in ireland an unknown country to them in a tent not knowing if they will be moved somewhere else the next day.

Ireland eases the housing, school and health service crisis along with others.

Ukrainians stay in their own country with a house and their kids getting educated properly.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119449161#Comment_119449161

You want Ukraine to start building new cities whilst trying to fight off Soviet expansion?

Do people actually engage in anything reassembling critical thought before they hit post comment?

Barbosa92

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119449047#Comment_119449047

Exactly, this whole narrative of we had €3bn tucked away for Covid which we can use so it’s costing us nothing really is BS. The people who are here will settle down. Then family members will join them. How many of them will be self sufficient and net contributors to Revenue. This isn’t a one off expense in times of a war. This is going to be a massive expense for a whole generation that will run in to billions and billions.

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119449238#Comment_119449238

yep, and we’ll have the cheesy photo ops, the hugs at the airport, news programs to the hilt with ‘awhhhhhh’ type advocacy…

and all the machinations of the state, politicians, public service fixated on this new narrative… dedicated to not helping tax payers.

a dump, and about to get worse… seriously worse.

Backstreet Moyes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119449178#Comment_119449178

What soviet expansion the war is on in a small part of Ukraine not all of Ukraine.

We are being asked to build homes, asking people to take in families into their home and are providing them hotel rooms, student accommodation and military grade tents.

It would be cheaper to do all these things in Ukraine.

It would also be more beneficial to irish and Ukrainians.

Suckit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119447950#Comment_119447950

This seems to be what your point basically boils down to. I’m not twisting your words and I have read them properly. One of the most simple explanations why it appears people aren’t engaging with your whataboutery is because that’s exactly what it is - whataboutery.

It is not what my point boils down to, but is the point you have focused on. You also most definitely did twist my words. You made it appear like I said something that I didn't.

It also seems your accusations of whataboutery are based on the assumption that I don't have any way of to back up what I am saying. That is incorrect. So it is not whataboutery.

Of course it’s going to appear to you as though people don’t care about people who are homeless and living on the streets if they’re not interested in talking about that, in a thread about Ukrainian refugees! You’re acting like that’s an unreasonable expectation.

That's not it at all. It has nothing to do with them choosing not to speak about other topics in the Ukrainian thread, unless of course it becomes relevant for the topic at hand, for example when the Ukrainian buses arrived at the DP centre and the people that had been living there were displaced to tents in Clare as a result. Nothing was mentioned then, however when a Ukrainian might be going to a tent, we hear about them being mouldy and without toilets etc.. Poor conditions.. Double standards much?

Also, as mentioned, that is not where my opinion came from, not from them not speaking about it in the Ukrainian thread.

Sure here’s an article from around this same time last year highlighting how student accommodation was being used to accommodate people who are homeless -

https://universitytimes.ie/2021/08/student-accommodation-could-be-used-as-homeless-housing/

People who are homeless and student accommodation have been ongoing issues for years, with many posters starting threads on the issues. Just because they didn’t pass your standards or you’re not aware of them doesn’t mean they don’t exist. That’s what the search function is for, but I gather you’re not interested in doing that. Your intent appears to be just pointing fingers as though you don’t care and other people don’t care either.

Where you are coming from is becoming more clear, but it is also more apparent how wrong you are. You seem fixed on the point that my opinion is coming from their silence about the issues with the homeless and other refugees on the Ukrainian thread. It isn't. It is from their points made in those other threads and others that have made me aware of their 'compassion' for Ukrainians, while dismissing the others. I chose not to link, but the fact that I can and indeed do use the search function makes it very easy for me to if I wish, or just to show you how to. Many of the same posters here for example, dismissing homelessness and blaming them for their own plight, Many of those threads are started by posters here going on about taking in the poor Ukrainians and telling us to have empathy or compassion for their plight, while over on the homeless threads (there are quite a few of them) they are getting digs in. It's almost as though they can't see their are both Ukrainians and Irish that are chancers, scammers, criminals, but plenty of both that also need help. Yet for most of their posts they paint both groups with one brush. Either they are all one or the other.

I don’t expect people to have cared about a war before it ever began.

That’d take powers of premonition and predictions of doom and gloom that’d make Nostradamus blush 😒

No, not about a war before it began, but this new found compassion for our fellow humans is being used as a weapon to make out that the people who are pointing out that it we don't have the resources for what is being pushed on us, as though they are less compassionate than them. A lot of the time, that is simply not true.

Pretty much TL:DR

I won't be continuing this discussion, as it focuses on one small mostly irrelevant point. Feel free to think what you like, as will I. The broader discussion is far more interesting to me. This is just a waste of my time.

My Opinion is that plenty of the posters on this thread have double standards. My opinion is not based on their posts on this thread alone. I will continue to have that opinion, in fact I am pretty sure it will get stronger based on their posts.

You can continue to incorrectly choose to believe how I come to that opinion. It won't bother me.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119449142#Comment_119449142

The State is more than just ‘us’ as taxpayers though, the State is it’s people, all of them, taxpayers and non-taxpayers alike, students and non-students alike, employed and unemployed alike, people who own property and people who are homeless alike… you get the idea - regardless of anyones socioeconomic status they are entitled to support provided for by the State.

As for where public funds come from, well I don’t just think where they come from, I know exactly where they come from, and I know exactly how the Government is tasked with distributing public funds too in pursuit of the common good of all people in Irish society -

https://www.revenue.ie/en/corporate/documents/statistics/receipts/net-receipts.pdf

https://whereyourmoneygoes.gov.ie/en/2021/

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/a7fcd-government-sets-out-parameters-for-budget-2023/

Personally speaking I’d be far more concerned about the few Irish people who default on paying their taxes every year than the thousands of Ukrainians refugees who are being supported by the State. It’s considerably more difficult, for Revenue to recoup the Billions it’s owed in taxes from Irish people who have the means, but just don’t want to pay -

https://www.revenue.ie/en/corporate/press-office/list-of-defaulters/index.aspx

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119449279#Comment_119449279

I won't be continuing this discussion, as it focuses on one small mostly irrelevant point.

At least that’s one thing we can agree on 😂

Subzero3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119449178#Comment_119449178

Looks like you don't. How about building in Poland, Lithuania or Romania. (Far cheaper).

Instead trying to call people out atleast offer suggestions to back up your idea of critical thought.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119449274#Comment_119449274

What soviet expansion the war is on in a small part of Ukraine not all of Ukraine

Oh so the soviets were there all the time? 🙄

But lets get this straight you want a country that is actively fighting off Soviet Expansion, to embark on the most ambition building project the world has ever seen?

And you living in one of the richest post peaceful countries on earth who can't cure the annual reoccurring problem of housing students. 😂

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119449358#Comment_119449358

I don't think anyone can accuse those countries of not pulling their weight.

The idea is to lesson the burden.

Subzero3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119449300#Comment_119449300

There's a good chance those defaulters paid some tax. There's a good chance those defaulters parent's paid tax, and so on.

Ukrianinans coming here have not, and will only drain our resources.

Subzero3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119449378#Comment_119449378

No thanks. Ireland is burdened enough. So good luck Ukrianinans, we have done our bit. Enough is enough.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119449412#Comment_119449412

Well if you say so, I'll inform everyone. 😕

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119449421#Comment_119449421

You won’t need to, those who are not feeling it, very soon will.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119449384#Comment_119449384

Are you hearing yourself at all? There’s an absolute certainty that they have evaded paying tax that they owe, and you’re trying to suggest that you’ll overlook that because there’s a chance they paid SOME tax…

But people who aren’t in the country a wet day and weren’t obligated to pay tax, you’re saying they’ll only drain our resources…

Are you taking the piss or what? Can you imagine how much of our resources are drained every year chasing after Irish people who have evaded paying tax for years?

I mean, honestly, that “argument” is just all sorts of ridiculous. I could argue similarly and point out that given the necessary supports, Ukrainian refugees and their children will pay tax at some point in the future, and there’s a chance they might become as averse to paying taxes which they owe as some of our Irish citizens are!

Your counter-argument just makes no sense, it makes no difference whatsoever to the fact that I’d be more concerned about the Irish people who don’t pay their taxes, than the thousands of refugees who didn’t have to pay tax here in the first place, who will pay taxes the same as anyone else under the same conditions and circumstances as anyone else!

They’re not in that position right now, which is why they receive support from the State in order to get them into that position, THEN they’ll be expected to pay taxes the same as anyone else.

maninasia

Lots of these 'refugees' are coming and going from Ukraine, or at least taking holidays there. They share details about to still claim jobseekers and how many days they can go for, how to book flights, how to talk to immigration etc in their Telegram group in Ireland. They even joke about taking holidays to Spain.

Seem more like economic migrants to me in many cases.

We shouldnt be dedicating so many resources to them in that case.

"''Going abroad without losing social benefits.

Usually, social benefits are not paid outside of Ireland, but depending on the type of benefits and the time of absence in the country, you can take "holidays". These are general rules for all residents of Ireland who receive social assistance, and not separately for Ukrainians under temporary protection.

If you receive social benefits, you must notify Intro about going abroad. The immigration officer, of course, does not ask about such things, but the fraud unit of the department of social protection makes checks at the airport from time to time. You may never run into these people, but you may chat upon returning from a day trip - as luck would have it.""

maninasia

Finally the govt getting more serious about taking up offers of accommodation. They must accept the second offer or find their own accommodation.

Again..Im pro taking in a certain amount of refugees. And pro Ukraine vs Russia.

But do it the right way for the real refugees.

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119448564#Comment_119448564

There is an absolute massive area of Ukraine which is safe. They should be accommodated there. 

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119449274#Comment_119449274

What soviet expansion the war is on in a small part of Ukraine not all of Ukraine.

What incredible ignorance. First, many millions are internally displaced and are being accommodated in western Ukraine.

But secondly, there have been many missile attacks on civilian targets, including those in "safe" "non-combat" areas. If your country was being illegally invaded, would you be happy moving your family from Dublin to Limerick, because Limerick is probably going to be safe?

How short people's memories are. It's literally only a couple of months since the 64km-long RuAF convoy was approaching Kyiv. They got as close as 30km from the centre of Kyiv and only aren't there now because of the fierce resistance they encountered combined with luck with the weather bogging down their main convoy.

• Odesa is on the Black Sea but nowhere near Donbas - repeatedly attacked with cruise missiles.
• Vinnytsia is in central Ukraine - attacked with rockets last month.
• Kremenchuk is also in central Ukraine, nowhere near a combat zone. A shopping mall attacked with missiles, during the day.

There are many more examples.

Finland and Sweden are now clamoring to join NATO. Why? Because they don't trust Russia to confine their expansion to the Donbas region (after they'd already annexed Crimea!). I think ordinary Ukrainian citizens, then, are perfectly justified in not hanging around in what boardsies deem to be "safe" areas.

Backstreet Moyes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119449370#Comment_119449370

I have seen pictures of people on beaches and hotels open for business in Ukraine.

Ukraine is huge the amount of Ukraine that is not in any war zone is far bigger than Ireland.

Stop with the hyperbole about soviet expansion, Russia have made very little ground in months, the majority of Ukraine is safe.

It would be cheaper to house these people in Ukraine then it would be here.

I don't see any reason why them coming to Ireland benefits irish or Ukrainian except the social welfare payments they get here.

In regards your last paragraph I am not sure what you mean, the fact we can't secure students accommodation is one of the reasons we should be giving them money to go home.

US3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119449109#Comment_119449109

You make it sound like "The State" pays for things with their own money. We the Irish citizens and anyone living or working here are "the state".

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119449854#Comment_119449854

Seem more like economic migrants to me in many cases. 

We shouldnt be dedicating so many resources to them in that case.

Is there some reason they can’t be both refugees and economic migrants?

For the purposes of the International Protection Act, they’re classed as displaced persons, who are entitled to the same rights of travel, medical care and social welfare benefits as Irish citizens -

(10) Without prejudice to subsection (8), a displaced person to whom subsection (2)applies shall be entitled—

(a) to seek and enter employment, to engage in any business, trade or profession and to have access to education and training in the State in the like manner and to the like extent in all respects as an Irish citizen,

(b) to receive, upon and subject to the same conditions applicable to Irish citizens, the same medical care and the same social welfare benefits as those to which Irish citizens are entitled, and

(c) to the same rights of travel in the State as those to which Irish citizens are entitled.

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2015/act/66/section/60/enacted/en/html#sec60

It’s not as though Ireland doesn’t have structures in place already so that individual citizens don’t have to fret about any refugees who they class as economic migrants who are also displaced persons - we have all sorts of immigration controls in place already, and AGS are none too shabby at investigating and determining whether or not people are involved in any criminal activity.

Holidaying in Spain isn’t criminal, hiding drugs in cabbages bound for Dublin, is -

https://m.sundayworld.com/crime/world-crime/irish-men-arrested-after-spanish-police-find-drugs-hidden-in-cabbage-bound-for-dublin/41061868.html

Cabbages.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119449941#Comment_119449941

Russia have made very little ground in months

So now their is Soviet expansion?

Glad we cleared that up.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119449957#Comment_119449957

I don’t make it sound like that at all, because I’ve been quite explicit in explaining that the Government uses public funds to provide for services for the common good of the State.

It’s the posters who imagine that they pay for things with their own money is who you should be taking issue with, because it is they who imagine they represent the State on the basis that they are obligated to pay tax. It’s as if they imagine they have any choice in the matter.

Nermal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119449752#Comment_119449752

For someone who witters on about false dilemmas, you're quick to construct them yourself. We can be concerned about both the State expending resources and not collecting taxes due at the same time.

Potatoeman

The state is hovering up all the available accommodation, this will result in higher rental prices and more inflation. Where I work we lost three international employees in the last month due to having to move one time too many. It’s not just the price of accommodation that’s the issue but also the lack of stability.

This whole situation was avoidable, first social housing should be the last priority in high demand areas. Second refugees should be in camps as it’s emergency accommodation and not a free for all for any crisis on the planet. Also social welfare and child benefit should not be paid, a subsistence allowance at best is all that should be offered.

The current system is designed to be abused by any spoofer that can climb on a plane. It will eventually reach an unsustainable limit and start crumbling and then you’ll find genuine refugees are being turned away while spoofers that got in first are being looked after. This is the end result of wanting to look good instead of dealing with a solution practically, you are doing more harm than good. Then the end result is a resentment to all refugees and not just the imposters and economic migrants.