Ukrainian refugees in Ireland - Megathread

TomTomTim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118970016#Comment_118970016

Yet at the same time I know very few people who grew up in that period who are renting or living with family. Many of them had that security by their 30's, which is something our youth will never have.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118970008#Comment_118970008

We don't.

But that's not really what he said, he said you can't have legal immigration.

He thought for his own reasons mass amounts of illegal immigration was good for an economy.

What his quite unique musings have to do with families fleeing a war, I have no idea. 😕

gladvimpaker

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118970022#Comment_118970022

So true, all the full time job contract's are nearly gone, unless you have a stroke of luck. My son's in his early 20's dropped out of his degree course a few years ago and started a job in Tesco's on the floor. He's been promoted a few times and he's content.His grandfather a farmer on his mums side has load's of frontage and there's a site and money there for him to build a house at a fraction of the price of having to buy one. I'm glad he's happy content and has his head screwed on. He'll still have more money than people on double his salary, and if he's happy that's all that matters. Some people look down on people who work in retail or something similar and not earning a lot but they probably have more money in their pockets at the end of the month. Similar story myself, had property left to me and no huge salary but I'm never struggling.

Sleeper12

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118970022#Comment_118970022

You want to measure everything against owning a home. Not everyone who grew up in 70s and 80s own their own homes today. Plenty of people I grew up with or went to school with never owned their own home.

With or without a mortgage, you have a higher standard of living now.

Edit: we all left school earlier. Very few got to go on to college. I left at 14 years of age. That's 10 years earlier than most today entering the workplace.

pluckyplucky

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118970078#Comment_118970078

You'd wonder what those people are doing now without a home, getting toward retirement age and paying the current rate of rent for as long as they can? Oof.

Higher standard of living, hmm.

Interesting. I think a lot of people see luxury, disposable crap as better living.

It would be interesting to see how many people would take this trade. One person gives up the mobile phone for life, settles with a landline, swaps the flashy television for a boxy old television, only takes a holiday very rarely, eats less "interesting" food, no internet, etc.....all in exchange for some blokes house.

How many would trade modern day crap for a house? Oh, plenty I would say, plenty.

How many would swap their home, theoretically, to have had such disposable luxuries during the 80's? No need to guess they wouldn't be tripping over themselves.

Easy to predict where actual life value lies, regardless of when you were born.

Sleeper12

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118970133#Comment_118970133

What you say doesn't ring true. I don't see many people getting rid of today's modern standard of living to save for a home. I survived till the mid 90s without a phone, Internet, Netflix etc. It didn't kill me. Everyone should be able to get rid of their mobile phone. If its needed for work then the employer will supply it.

It's easy to say I'd give it all up for a home. Give it all up now and be able to save 1000s extra towards a mortgage

Most of the ones that didn't get to buy their own home have been on rent allowance, HAP or are in social housing.

Mike Murdock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118969748#Comment_118969748

60k after tax is what, 3.5k per month? Roughly anyway.

Breaking down outgoings on that would be interesting.

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118970016#Comment_118970016

I lived through it and remember the 80's, left secondary school in the middle of it. The unemployment, the last twitching vestiges of the church and all that. Even among my solidly suburban middle class peers unemployment and uncertainty was high enough. Housing was far less an issue though. A mate of mine took a job, entry level in a supermarket. If there had been a minimum wage, he'd have been on it, but he was still able to rent a flat in Rathmines Dublin and put a little away. Try doing that now. And though uncertainty was high, among the young there was more confidence, as the young tend to have, than I see today. We still saw a future somewhere and sometime when we'd have what our parents had and better. And for the vast majority of them that's what happened. Those same men and women are a lot more concerned about their own kids and what futures they may have.

Mobius2021

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118970171#Comment_118970171

To be fair regarding your comment about the mid 90s. The World Wide Web only came to being in the early 90s, some but not many in Ireland had a PC with a modem and an ISP by the mid 90s.

Mobile phones certainly existed but again unless you were a high flying business man many didn't have one. Plus they were massive in size too. I got my first mobile phone in 2001.

Netflix did sort of exist, it was founded in 1997 as a postal DVD library service but not sure it was available in Ireland in the early years.

So if you did have the above by the mid 90s you certainly were not the norm and probably a very wealthy individual indeed. So no fear of you at all.

Those examples are a bit like saying today that I can survive without a 8k or 16k TV and it never did me any harm. They exist but a 8k could set you back the price of a second hand car and a 16k display is a mortgage.

Also with regards mobile phones. Many now use mobile phones instead of landline. Wife and I are on €9.99 Gomo plans using cheap Android phones from Amazon, no landline here.

Just to put the misery dick measuring into perspective.

Sleeper12

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118970301#Comment_118970301

The point I was trying to make was that if I was saving for a mortgage then I wouldn't have any of those luxuries. I did without the luxuries till I got my mortgage. My mortgage is now long paid and I have more luxuries than most people.

I have a daughter 29 and son 27. I know its difficult. It's been made more difficult by the failures of the last few governments.

Funny thing is that the Ukrainian refugees are pushing the government to do things they should have done 10 years ago. In the long term I believe the refugees will improve the housing crisis. They are getting the government to bring on ideas that were put forward 10 years ago. When the majority of Ukrainians leaves Ireland is 2 or 3 years we will have all this extra housing for Irish people

pluckyplucky

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118970171#Comment_118970171

No, I didn't say to "save for a home".

A straight trade, how someone got their home in the 80's, work, effort, living standards and all, in exchange for the requisite effort required today.

People aren't thick. It's an easy choice, whether you feel that diminishes the efforts of your life or not, one time was measurably easier, affordable, doable.

That's that. Nobody wants to hear they had an easier time of it (especially when it didn't feel easy), but it is what it is.

growleaves

Most consumer costs have been deflated in recent decades. Food, clothes, electronics etc. The production costs have been deflated through offshoring of manufacturing and global labour arbitrage.

The jumper you buy from H&M that was manufactured in Bangladesh is cheaper than one made in Derry in 1986, in relative terms.

Everything is cheaper except fixed assets like housing. (Look at price-to-income ratio 30 year chart for objective data on house affordability past vs present.)

Since shelter is a non-negotiable that means you can be struggling even while awash in cheap consumer goods. Giving up those goods won't close the gap unless you are wasting a LOT of disposable income on cheap crap.

Sleeper12

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118970372#Comment_118970372

A straight swap is fairly tails. It's impossible. A dream.

Cutting out modern luxury will allow a person to save more. This is fact. Not a dream

Mike Murdock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118970381#Comment_118970381

Or eating out a few days a week for lunch at work. Or takeouts/meals out a few nights per week. City breaks, weekends away, weddings. Major holidays every year. Nights out in Dublin ain’t cheap either.

Even excluding rent and bills, there are other ways to blow money that will strip 60k net down to the bone.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118970381#Comment_118970381

Bill Cosby selling computers, they were crazy times.

pluckyplucky

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118970394#Comment_118970394

Of course it's hypothetical.

But this bullshyte about "just don't do that thing, and youll be able to afford a home like me in 6 years" is a joke at this point.

Like the mobile phone and internet, just to pick one example. Okay, a person throws it out the window and they can save a WHOPPING 300 odd quid a year...wow! Now they just saved the equivalent of 1 weeks rent. That'll make a severe dent in affording a 500k home!

There are cutbacks, and then there is reality. Taking everything into account, like a primetime episode spelled out in detail a while back, the affordability of a home in the 80's versus now is a joke.

"I had to wash potatoes for a whole 5 years to get an empty house on one wage in 1983, didn't even have a mobile phone. Now it's worth 50 million Euros per square inch, why dont you choose to buy it, you have it so easy?" :p

Bit cynical

I said this on another thread but there is problem with housing throughout most of the developed world. The cause of the problem is virtually free money for the right people but restricted access to it for the majority. Since the financial crisis, money has been been printed and made available at very low interest rates to corporate interests. At the same time banks, being very conservative institutions are unwilling to lend to developers having been burned during the same financial crises. Additionally, strict mortgage lending rules remain in place and enforced - another consequence of the financial crisis.

The upshot of this is lots of corporate money chasing limited supply causing price rises.

In normal circumstances a bubble would quickly form. There would be a building boom, the bubble would then burst and prices would become affordable again. However governments tend to work against markets to make things worse. Thus measures are put in place to limit REITs and the like investing into the market causing rents to go up and further limiting supply.

Sleeper12

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118970453#Comment_118970453

You need to add up the cost of the phone, phone contact, Internet, Netflix, Xbox games, take out coffee etc. Add up the cost of the things that are luxury. It is 1000s per year that could go towards a mortgage.

My dad died 30 years ago. I'd give my home away to spend just a few minutes with him but I'll never get that chance. In the same way no one is going to be able to give up luxury and have a house the next day. However if the same person gave up on the luxury then they would get a home sooner. I don't understand the mentally of wanting the luxuries & still think that you can get a home.

Mike Murdock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118970453#Comment_118970453

It’s not just one thing though. It’s probably a combination of things that need to be reined in for a period of time.

It means taking your net salary, and line by line going through outgoings to see what you can cut out, what is unnecessary and what can be cut back on.

Sleeper12

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118970484#Comment_118970484

I agree.

Having a meeting with the local MABS office would be a good start. They will show people where they are wasting money, what they should cut out and how to save money.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118970405#Comment_118970405

I agree that people throwing their money around like it's water can be a factor, to an extent. It's better to spend next to nothing if you're any way serious about saving.

But make your lunch every day, take no holidays, breaks etc. them compare those savings as a percentage of your income vs fixed costs. Say you're saving an extra 25% of your income through frugality, and your fixed non-negotiable costs (energy, rent) rise by a total of 40% and are still rising.

What's happening is that you can't close the gap through personal austerity.

Also if everyone gave up most consumer spending our economy would shrink.

Food prices are meant to jump in October apparently. We should be planting "victory gardens" like those promoted by the US gov during WWII imo.

We're walking into an inflationary buzz-saw with the supply curve moving up and to the left.

pluckyplucky

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118970483#Comment_118970483

Oh, it's thousands per year, is it. Great. Forgoing basic communication, even.

Rent is thousands per month in some cases.

The mathematics, no matter what millivanilli job you're skirting over, just don't add up.

Or if you're so inclined (you won't be), let's see how you, as lets say a clerical officer on less than 500 euro take-home a week, living in Dublin in a small one bed apartment for a thousand euro a month...can get their hands on a 400k home, average, run of the mill home in an average area etc. No bank of mommy and doddy, no free rooms of relatives.

Let's see your plan for year one.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118960649#Comment_118960649

Yeah, I don’t think they’re going to kick Joe Soap out of his gaff to house Ukrainian refugees. But it’s naive to say it’s impossible that they could demonise some unpopular group (say “greedy multiple house owning landlords” or whatever) and make them allocate a property to the refugees “for the greater good”. It all depends on how serious the problem gets.

Mike Murdock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118970577#Comment_118970577

A clerical officer on less than 500 euro take-home a week? They should not be renting an apartment/studio on their own anyway. They should be renting a room in a house/flatshare and paying 400-600 euro max.

Already they are saving money.

pluckyplucky

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118970590#Comment_118970590

Perhaps, slim pickings considering I saw a single bed for rent, with a double bed beside it, for 870 a month recently.

So do the rest of the maths then, tell this hypothetical person where they can cut back to be able to buy an average home in Dublin.

Sleeper12

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118970577#Comment_118970577

"Forgoing basic communication"

This exactly the point I'm making. If people continue to believe that luxury items are necessity items then I don't hold out much hope of them to be able to save properly.

Cutting out phones, Netflix, sky sports, Internet, holidays, take out food, dining out, drinking out take out coffee etc will save thousands of euro per year. If a person doesn't see these as luxury items then I can't help them.

In the 80s we didn't expect to have luxury goods or live a privileged lifestyle and still expect to be able to buy a home.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118963808#Comment_118963808

The Ukrainians are in the middle of a war. The coronavirus has turned out to be little worse than the flu in most cases. Do you want us to leave them in Ukraine just because most of the aren’t double-jabbed ?

livingdgx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118970656#Comment_118970656

It was a global pandemic where we were locked in our houses and stopped by the police every time we left our houses to check if our journey was necessary? Still you need the vaccine to escape Ireland so yeah, it entirely invalidates the pro vaccine argument if you’re going to let 200,000 unvaccinated people into the country. Can you not see that?

livingdgx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118970656#Comment_118970656

If they’re going to do that, the vaccine travel mandate should be axed worldwide.

pluckyplucky

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118970655#Comment_118970655

But a phone IS basic communication. All this Netflix shyte and the like, who cares about that. Congratulations, you've managed to save a person a months rent by cutting back on superfluous crap. Whoop de dooo. Where's the rest coming from, then?

Here's the bottom line. You and your like are in no way, shape or form representative of this country anymore. You're old hat, you're the by-gone days. But the media persistently panders to you, so it gives you a fake version of reality.

Always the same, without fail, the amount of scrutiny you dare afford lest you come up against reality, is the likes of "don't buy coffee". Brilliant. I invited you to outline a scenario of savings above and you quite simply didn't want to do it, as predicted.

There's a reason that world economists refer to that general time period/generation as "the boom" years, "boomers". It's because, all things being relative, it was great time for prosperity.

The reason, in case it escaped your brain, that the media caters almost exclusively to you in this country is because, surprise, surprise, you own nearly everything.

A bunch of delusional people, rapping about "the hard times" that has made so many of you accidental millionaires. Well, your precious "hard times" that you think imbues some kind of character aren't shyt in comparison.

Well, as I said before, you people are going out to pasture soon, and the other Irish people, the ones you never hear about, will be taking up the mantle. I'll tell you this, I wouldn't be expecting an easy time of it after the treatment they've received. What goes around...