New referendum on dispora voting due

Rket4000

I remember the time the referendum on divorce was passed in Ireland by a very small majority. I remember a discussion on the subject the following week. One of my neighbours was saying that her daughter, who was married and living in England for a good few years, was very upset with the result because not permitting divorce was something that made Ireland different. I was thinking so if she had her way and her marriage went south she'd be able to get a divorce in England, but her sisters in Ireland would be denied that right in the same circumstances because she wanted Ireland to stay the way she remembered it.

That was when I decided that people who don't have to live with the consequences shouldn't have a vote. I realise this discussion is about presidential elections, but if that got through it would only be the start of it.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118886759#Comment_118886759

The ECJ would have to make an actually ruling before it would have an impact. Now contrary to what people think the EU has limited sovereignty powers and they are powers we have granted it. So I would be very interested for a pointer to the treaty article that he ECJ could potentially rule on.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118890202#Comment_118890202

I have the distinct feeling that UK citizens are still voting in Presedential elections, are sent polling cards and it's just widely ignored.

Unless they maintain a separate electoral register parsed for Brits (which I doubt). Perhaps a poster who has worked on these matters could enlighten us.

Dodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118890252#Comment_118890252

They do keep a separate electoral register and your nationality is noted.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118890208#Comment_118890208

Divorce would have won by a much higher majority I reckon. It excludes primarily young people from a vote on the future which is one of the reasons the holy Joe's held out as long as they did with their marriage/abortion/contraception BS

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118889971#Comment_118889971

Yes - I'd be fine with that once they have established roots here - The 5 year rule should apply both ways.

You can continue to vote for 5 years after you leave and you can start to vote once you've lived here for 5 years.

if you are living here and using the services provided by the State you should have a voice in how those Services are delivered.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118890367#Comment_118890367

Being young doesn't automatically make you radical! Actually divorce went down the first time on concerns about inheritance. You're also likely to find a good spread of support of this so-called BS across all age groups.

It doesn't matter how close it is, it's not a competition, merely an attempt by a government to persuade people to agree to a Constitutional change, even one passed by a handful of votes. Quite a few have failed down the years, including two attempts by FF to change our electoral system to FPTP.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118890444#Comment_118890444

No you don't find a good spread of support across age groups. Polling breakdown consistently shows young people are more liberal (believing in divorce, gay marriage etc. is not radical)

This is only my experience so not factual stats but most Irish immigrants I met in the UK talked about how delighted they were to get out of strict catholic Ireland in the 60/70/80s.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118890495#Comment_118890495

My point is more to do with just finger pointing at so-called older people and assuming they only vote one way. For all their claimed beliefs, that younger cohort, especially the 18-30s, have a habit of just not voting. Results are based on those who show up. Personally not all that impressed by those who won't allow themselves to get over events from over half a life back and some of them carry it like a badge.

Rket4000

That's not the point. My point is that if she'd had a vote she could have voted in a way that she wouldn't have had to live with the consequences of. And as it happens I reckon she would have been in her late 20s at the time.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118890543#Comment_118890543

Oh no would not assume that older people all vote one way but the stats are there that they are more likely to be conservative voters and young people more likely to be liberal ones. It's especially problematic when you had people leaving the country specifically because of things like sexual orientation which helps take that issue off the board.

My proposal rules out the "half a life back" people as I'm only advocating for a 5 year voting amnesty.

ZeroThreat

tbh I'd be happy with current voting laws remaining provided the 3 year 'ordinarily resident' tax rules are discarded. Whoever thought up that law had some brass neck.

Been away from Ireland for a long time and don't think I should have a vote. Things like Springboard require you to have spent three of the last five years resident in Ireland and I think the same would be fair for voting.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118894790#Comment_118894790

I was sad to miss out on a few votes when I was away but at the end of the day I understood why. What absolutely disgusted me though was the way I was treated by the likes of the dole when I came home. Wanting to know where my parents came from and where we planned to live as if me and my family were first time immigrants despite most having never left.

amacca

There's no way the diaspora should get a vote

Afaic they can have one if/when they come back and live here....at least then there's a chance (however small) they might think about the consequences of their decision.......

People shouldn't have a say in the running of a country they aint living in, recipe for disaster imo

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118895116#Comment_118895116

There is a massive difference between an emigrant and the diaspora. Many of the diaspora never lived here but then there is a kid who spends a year in Australia but is unlucky because they miss a vote that can have a massive effect on Ireland for years and years to come.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118895148#Comment_118895148

This proposal would have no effect on that scenario as it's only about a vote in the presidential election.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118895170#Comment_118895170

Ya true but the conversation had long since moved on to other votes too.

I would have a 10 year limit on Presidential elections as I said earlier.

HalloweenJack

It's coming up to 11 years since I left Ireland and I still don't have any plans to go back. I'm married now (to a foreigner) and working on my career (one that doesn't have as many opportunities back home) so things would have to change quite dramatically for me to end up back in Ireland.

I can see both sides of the argument. I don't think it's particularly fair to vote for decisions that are never going to affect me on a day-to-day basis and when I don't 'contribute' (pay tax). However, there are decisions that do affect me, like a referendum on this issue which I'd want to vote on. I'd be more interested in just having a vote for referenda as it could go some way to having a say about the core principles which define my country.

For example, if there was an Irexit vote, I'd want to have a say as it'd have a big impact on my life. I wasn't one of the 'home to vote' crowd but the marriage and abortion refs were ones I'd have liked to have a say in.

I wouldn't be too upset if I didn't get to vote in the Dail electiond as the result isn't going to have as much of an impact. There are rarely politicians who target their country's diaspora; more often than not, they actively play up to them.

I still have an Irish passport which provides me with the benefits of Irish citizenship; however, I don't get any say in what those benefits may be. It's not like you can choose where you're born or your family's situation at the time of your birth, either. It's not like I had any say in being Irish so I don't think it's fair that I should be denied rights just because I wanted to live sonewhere else.

I live in Spain where only Spanish nationals can vote in general elections, despite me paying tax here. If I were to become a Spanish citizen, I'd have to give up my Irish citizenship, which I have no interest in doing, unless it was a necessity in order to preserve the life I've made for myself here.

So I'm in a political no man's land which is quite frustrating, though it lets me point the finger at everyone and smugly say 'Well, I didn't vote for them'.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118889942#Comment_118889942

Again, there is no Constitutional requirements here, so talk of "WE MUST CONSULT THE PEOPLE!" calls from those who would be against any proposal in the hope it would be voted down.

The Dail itself is the people's house, where laws are passed for us and by us. No reason why we should have a referendum on this if we legally do not have to. The dinosaurs may disagree of course.

Dodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118897177#Comment_118897177

Shouldn’t the fact it hasn’t happened yet suggest it isn’t really an issue for any political party here? The only way it might change is if a referendum result shows it’s the will of the people.

The elephant in the room is how Irish citizens in Northern Ireland are treated of course. Perhaps if Sinn Fein get into power here, they may be more willing to bet that constituency would be more likely to vote along their lines.

a_squirrelman

Screw the voting from abroad thing.

I'd be more interested in the EU 27 agreeing that if you are an EU citizen you can vote in the country you're registered in.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118897410#Comment_118897410

Ireland really need to bring in mandatory registration of domiciled people

a_squirrelman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118897451#Comment_118897451

Yeah but people are mad weird, I can't understand why id cards are such an issue.

Dyr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118895116#Comment_118895116

Unless those people are in Brussels, of course 😂

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118897410#Comment_118897410

The circumstance a poster who is living in Spain mentioned earlier is exactly the political no man's land that both the Irish overseas voting barrier and the rules that certain EU countries have on voting is the one worth paying attention to.

That individual, in the excercising of his rights of freedom of movement and labour in the EU is cut out of the democratic process in both his homeland and the state he lives in now (save if he elected to become a Spanish citizen, which there is no guarantee he'd be granted, and he has no particular constitutionally enumerated right to unlike voting).

This is the exact circumstance in which an Irish citizen will establish locus standi for a case to go all the way to the highest European courts. And the circumstance on the legality of the administrative voting bar for overseas Irish will come into focus, and likely fall.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118898012#Comment_118898012

I would totally agree that if you move to a different part of the EU and establish residence there - Paying taxes , in receipt of Government Social services or whatever , you should absolutely be able to vote in the appropriate level of elections.

Today I think in Ireland an EU citizen can vote in EU election (of course) and local county council elections , but not for the Dail , which makes no sense.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118886539#Comment_118886539

I agree - as long as there's an opt-out option. No way I'm I paying tax to Ireland simply because I was born there, but similarly, I have no interest in the whimsical popularity contests.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118897177#Comment_118897177

Actually there is a need for one as Article 12 asserts that only the right to vote in the general allows one to vote in the presidential. They would need to be decoupled.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118899104#Comment_118899104

More generally, a minor legislative change re: electoral roll and a statutory instrument allowing for the administration of postal votes for overseas Irish in a general election is all that's required.

Why waste our time with a referendum? When a sensible amendment to an act is all that's required allowing a modest 5 years (or whatever) where overseas Irish can maintain their suffrage rights.

(In reality they still maintain them as I've demonstrated in this thread, they are just frustrated administratively)