So "X" - nothing to see here. Elon's in control - Part XXX

AndrewJRenko

This is like something from Lionel Hutz

https://twitter.com/themaxburns/status/1592907779316252672?s=46&t=K4fLN20NKW14tMHM86ZEUQ

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882324#Comment_119882324

Corporate rule number 2 is "do as I say, not as I do."

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882318#Comment_119882318

Loyalty has to be earned too.

If your loyalty can be bought, well that's on you.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882347#Comment_119882347

Ever changed jobs for a better salary?

kowloon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882372#Comment_119882372

I think people are on different pages about the meaning of "loyalty". I'd consider loyalty to be someone staying with their company despite better salaries available elsewhere. Jumping ship every time a better pay cheque is on offer is self-interest. The difference between someone loyal to their flag and a mercenary.

Another example would be brand loyalty. Some people will queue overnight for the launch of a phone and will buy it regardless of tech specs and price.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882372#Comment_119882372

That's got nothing to do with loyalty.

Is English your first language?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119881946#Comment_119881946

Maybe this was posted already, but I didn’t see it

https://twitter.com/donie/status/1592859900941852674?s=46&t=3FpmOcjZ-v6dc4uXyAECbQ

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882336#Comment_119882336

I work for a tech company and it really isnt.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882416#Comment_119882416

It has everything to do with loyalty. A truly loyal worker that doesn't consider this an exchange would never quit for a higher salary. Anyone that has done so has sold their loyalty. In the world of work, loyalty has a price.

What a manager expects in return for the salary they pay you is the work done to the standard required and support from that staff member. Undermining the manager by badmouthing them is a breach of this understanding and has always been grounds for being disciplined.

This is all a result of the frankly bizarre culture of entitlement that has been allowed to develop in companies like Twitter. Seemingly the normal way companies work is news to Twitter staff though.

It is what it is though and Musk may find that sweeping overnight changes to a more normal culture may end up with him having an unworkable company. That's his decision though.

Psychedelic Hedgehog

Anyone competent left in Twitter will most likely take the severance and run, leaving the ones who are not as well skilled/qualified to pick up the slack of maintaining a codebase and infrastructure stack that is by all accounts highly complex.

Yeah, I can see this ending well...

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882452#Comment_119882452

I wonder if they have considered what will happen if everyone in a particular function decides to leave?

Greyfox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882452#Comment_119882452

Confirmation if anybody needed it that Musk is a sh*thead.

kerplun k

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882480#Comment_119882480

Probably isn’t as simple as that. What Musk is saying and what is happening are two very different things. I’d say there’s tons of employees that are actively looking for the severance right now which Twitter will inevitably turn down after their review has been conducted. Most will probably walk for nothing. That’s normally how these things go.

bokale

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882452#Comment_119882452

That's an interesting perspective that at it's heart Twitter is a software and servers company. I don't think that's true really is it?

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882618#Comment_119882618

I wouldn't have said so..it's an advertising company, like most big tech imo.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882479#Comment_119882479

Changing Jobs has nothing to do with your loyalty being bought, once you change jobs your loyalty still needs to be earned as well as respect by the new company and its leadership. You have a very mercenary view of the world if you believe loyalty can be bought and sold at the drop of a hat like that.

kerplun k

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882452#Comment_119882452

For a person that doesn’t want parody accounts, Musk is doing a great job of parodying Ryan from the US Office.

bokale

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882647#Comment_119882647

Yeah strange he wants to stack it with engineers.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882647#Comment_119882647

Most big tech are advertising companies? Really? Amazon, Microsoft, Salesforce, Stripe, Shopify, Wix, Oracle, Atlassian, Slack, Zoom to name but a very few those of which arent and i haven't even named a single phone, tablet or component manufacturer.

I think your getting confused and conflating social media companies with all tech companies tbh.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882318#Comment_119882318

some of us would have been jailed for some of the stuff we ve emailed each other in a job, from hard core porn, to filth you wouldnt believe, some work places sound like hell, we had it easy, and fun to!

At this point I expect the next announcement to be that Musk and the remaining development staff are decamping to a bunch of properties in Palo Alto and that Sean Parker has agreed to come onboard as a consultant to help out. In a surprise move, Parker suggests to rename the company to "The Twitter".

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882786#Comment_119882786

Sounds like Aaron Sorkins wet dream for a sequel

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882735#Comment_119882735

Yeah, it the dissemination of this kind of material over corporate networks was rife in the early days. Those days ended after a few public embarrassments for a handful of companies.

xxxxxxl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882852#Comment_119882852

I almost had an accident in work thought I sent it to the same name but in the USA.. Luckily the correct person got it. I did receive a shopping list from some woman in the USA one for Her husband to buy we had a chuckle about it over email.

Glaceon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882618#Comment_119882618

I wonder if he meant "software and services"?

FunLover18

If I hired someone knowing at they would leave at the whiff of a better offer, "loyal" is not the word I would use to describe them. But in the same way people are saying that there's no such thing as "work families" I don't think employment is the place for loyalty as it's seldom rewarded in my experience.

pixelburp

I'm not "loyal" to my employer because it's not a vocation, or a calling, or something beyond what it is. A job, a means to an end to make myself and my family's life a good one. in fact I see myself, a front-end developer, as a tradesman TBH - and say this when asked in interviews (I despise the cutesy obnoxious talk of "rock stars" and "code ninjas", like it's a fúcking wheeze). I have a set of technical skills people need to Get Stuff Done, and I get paid to supply those skills. I don't design the bathroom but I do put it together and install the plumbing. A tradesman.

All I ask is I'm paid what I think my time and money is worth, and I'm treated to a modicum of dignity and respect by those above. But that's it. It's a mercenary relationship and this segue about "loyalty" feels reductionist, naive and trying to put the onus or fault on employees - not least because in an era of the Gig Economy, the concept of a "career" feels increasingly redundant. What value has loyalty when employment conditions favour the employer, who'll sack you arbitrarily for lols? Again, it becomes talk of serfdom, not professionalism. If the boss is full of shít, they should be called on it by those with most to lose from the CEOs hubris.

But people work where they work for more than monetary reasons. Sometimes of course, it's purely the amount paid ... and plenty (too many) people work shítty jobs for pittance ... but if we're talking skilled labour like IT and developers? A collaborative, welcoming, respectful work environment will do as much work as a fat paycheque or health benefits. People might work for a large salary - but they'll stay because they're respected and made feel like they count. A group of good people coming together to make something, their work rewarded and appreciated.

Twitter and Musk is burning through that built sense of trust like there's no tomorrow, out some dated sense that one must suffer and sweat for one's bread. Bullshít. It's neanderthal nonsense, regressive towards a sweatshop mentality and at the risk of indulging in business lingo... it's better to work smarter, not harder. Or to fail better. 80 hour work weeks creates shít code., Bugs, instability, toxic work environments - and certainly doesn't engender "loyalty".

Loyalty is also a two way street. He’s treating people, who’ve mostly got plenty of better options and are likely the only people who know how everything works, as if they’re completely disposable.

The company will very likely just collapse before long.

Why would anyone who could leave, and find much nicer employment or go self employed and spin up something interesting, be bothered dealing with this chaos for more than 3 minutes.

He’s throwing his weight around with people he really has no power over at all.

Royale with Cheese

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119883593#Comment_119883593

Pretty much exactly what I thought when I read his little ultimatum. I've no idea why anyone would want to stay in Twitter and be "hardcore" for that cúnt. There's nothing admirable about working stupid hours for some software company. Once you have the skills and experience to go somewhere else where you can get paid a fair wage for a fair day's work then do so, there will be a serious clear out at Twitter.

The guy's ego is just completely out of control. I like using Twitter and would miss it if it goes but I'm still enjoying watching its demise.

xxxxxxl

People can leave no one has handcuffed them to the desk in the office. I think their more P*ssed about all the perks being shut off and will never get in another company. I have no idea why people are upset at management reading your internal communication. That's standard practice. If you pick up a phone in the office someone is listening or could be standard again. All your emails can be read from your work account. They can actually see what you type on the work laptop or computer your using so even see what your sending via your own email accounts via key logging. You would swear this is something new.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119883813#Comment_119883813

Did Twitter have more perks than any other tech company? I’d have thought the likes of Google were much better

xxxxxxl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119883884#Comment_119883884

Googles are for show most of the stuff in the office is for looks for example You wont find anyone using the air hockey tables that are supposed to be working. You don't tend to see many videos coming from google like twitter with people doing absolutely nothing with others doing that. It's pretty much a Twitter trope at this stage.

bokale

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119883895#Comment_119883895

I've heard of these twitter people at work videos, any links ? Cheers

xxxxxxl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119883930#Comment_119883930

I'm pretty sure some were linked in the thread could be wrong try google otherwise.

bokale

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119883959#Comment_119883959

What site did you see them on?

Maybe that's the culture he built at Tesla but coming into an established company that "hardcore" rhetoric is not going to work at all.

He is making serious misjudgements here.

Also people who make "a day in the life of [insert job title] " videos and show a cushy number are absolutely braindead. The kind boggles. All for likes I guess.

xxxxxxl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119883969#Comment_119883969

Can't remember probably YT your free not to believe it.

bokale

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119883979#Comment_119883979

Haha OK.. strange response.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119883813#Comment_119883813

Management are legally obliged to comply with GDPR , just like anyone else. They need a legal basis for any such access to data, or they will expose themselves to huge fines. General policies signed under duress are not “informed consent” .

xxxxxxl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119884029#Comment_119884029

Gdpr is for individuals not companies. Show us under the Gdpr guidelines where this is disallowed. They are allowed to monitor your activities. How do you think they got away with working from home monitoring ? They could see though your camara and keylog on the work system to see if you were working. 🤔

Edit also how do you square this call maybe recorded for training exercises. Gdpr is more for data selling and access by a 3rd party.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119883978#Comment_119883978

I think there's a difference in working for a Tesla or a SpaceX competed to Twitter.

People working in a place like SpaceX might view it as something "bigger than a job" to some extent.

It's space exploration after all.

A potentially similar argument could be made for Tesla where you are changing how people drive and are saving the environment etc.

But Twitter???

No one works for Twitter and thinks they are changing the world.

The Spider

Big problem here for the remaining staff who want to run is that their salaries are way above and beyond what they could get elsewhere, especially now, a year ago having Twitter on your cv would have almost guaranteed you the pick of jobs, not so much now I’d imagine, in IT timing is everything, down to when you leave, how long you stay etc.

The other point which was touched on was that a lot of people weren’t working very hard and will go kicking and screaming into an environment where they have to work, although by the sounds of it staying is automatically going to push you into that environment.

3 months salary as severance is Shite by Irish standards and I don’t think too many people would sign a release of claims for that kind of money, couple of things need to happen if Musk wants people out he needs to announce voluntary redundancy to get sign ups and decent severance, ie 6 weeks for every year along those lines, the current 3 months if you’ve been with the company a year or 10 years is unfair to the people there the longest they’ll stick their heels in.

failing the voluntary route they’ll hope for unfair dismissals and bring a case, 2 years Twitter salary tax free will answer a lot of problems and allow them to take a lower paying job, that’s the way it’s going to play out, my money is on unfair dismissals because Musk won’t like the idea of being ‘blackmailed’ by voluntary.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119884092#Comment_119884092

There also relatively few big breaks in space tech - it’s a pretty small field with very few players. The only ones doing space exploration until very recently were government bodies like NASA or the European Space Agency and the jobs were as rare as hens teeth and competed for, much like getting a gig in high academia.

Twitter is one of lots of Silicon Valley / Northern California and global tech sector companies. It’s a huge, buzzing sector and people are highly mobile between companies, which tend to cluster to try and keep and poach talent.

The perks, locations, work from home options and atmosphere are about marketing the companies to potential talent.

Comparing Twitter with Space X or with Tesla, which is primarily a manufacturing company at this stage, is just a bit ridiculous. There are in very different niches.

It’s capitalism. The coders, engineers, product developers and everyone else in that sector at high level are in high demand. If you don’t offer them something that’s attractive, they’ll walk. Nobody is going to bust their gut working for some entirely private entity, in which they’ve no interests and which is treating them badly. What’s in it for them?! A blue tick? 😂

Twitter has to compete in the knowledge economy and that includes competing for and retaining knowledge and talent.

xxxxxxl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119884279#Comment_119884279

Aye I have never got the Idea of loyalty to a tech company. I know they like to present this family angle leaflets corporate magazines. It's all fake. MNC I worked for used to send us that junk in the post not even on Email. Addressed to me and the partner. USMNC just want you to flog your guts out for as little as they can pay. It's a cutthroat sector. Unless your in on the ground say a dev or software engineer your expendable. I always found USMNC have far to many managers vs people doing the work. I for example had a team leader and they had a manager both would come over to you. Hr was a huge issue to if you were not playing ball you would be brought in for "Performance meetings" On a team I ran as my managers go to person I knew the metrics and it was basically a way of warning you without warning you. The whole sector can be very toxic.

Twitter is suffering from great jobs and perks coming to an end. It's basically a .com.

There can be huge attrition rates in roles too. Person in 5 years their then looking to get rid after they train in someone else new out of collage.

joseywhales

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119884080#Comment_119884080

Is it standard to have to work on a company laptop?

I've been using my own personal machine for the last 5 years remote, I'm pretty sure Citrix does not have the ability to report on other activities on my computer.

FunLover18

https://twitter.com/LisaBloom/status/1592914986183331840?t=AYo5LVs3yrfxF-rMZ7qayQ&s=19

Good thread on the issues that could arise from Musk's 24 hour ultimatum email.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119884080#Comment_119884080

You should tell Instagram that GDPR isn’t a thing for them and they don’t have to pay the €400 million fine.

https://twitter.com/nataliabielova/status/1574125229097426944?s=46&t=G-k5V21rE5Cmcce0tSR06g

Honestly, if you don’t know what you’re talking about, don’t post and make a fool of yourself.

I’ve no idea what kind of employee monitoring you’re referring to, but I suspect it’s something that happened in the States, not in Europe (where GDPR applies).

Here’s some professional advice on the matter.

https://howarths-uk.com/2018/03/27/gdpr-and-employee-monitoring/

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882479#Comment_119882479

None of that has to do with the fact that both loyalty and respect have to be earned by one's deeds, not by the amount of money that goes into one's pocket, because a better rate of pay can often be found elsewhere if one looks hard enough.

I'm not at all sure that you understand what loyalty actually is or how it comes about. But here's a tip, it has nothing to do with money.

pjohnson

Musk cheerleaders choosing to ignore GDPR AND confuse loyalty with mercenary does show brilliantly the mindset of Musks fans.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119884497#Comment_119884497

It'd be a useful straw poll to know what everybody's respective jobs were, less out of judgement but more to know how their mentality stacks up against the sector they work in. Maybe there are some industries where culturally there remains some deference towards "loyalty" as it pertains to a Voice of God worship? Thinking maybe really traditional roles like law or accountancy firms?

Cos as an IT flunkey, the idea I must be "loyal" to the CEO that borders on worship, like my paycheque is some kind of King's Shilling that buys unquestioning slavery, is laughable and unrealistic against the modern WebDev office. And as I said, going double for the modern idea of "gigs" replacing careers. Maybe when I was in my mid-20s, and too raw to stand up for myself, I'd have bought into this myht - but as a calloused 40-something? Fúck off Elon Musk and your ilk. Stick to rockets.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119884583#Comment_119884583

I'd respect Musk's attitude a lot more if I knew he was also going to stay late, code "hardcore" (whatever the fúck that means, though we can guess) with the rest of the grunts sleeping under their desks ... but ahhhhhhh I don't think so.

And I've worked that kind of office: oh we're all in this together guys, you gotta work 'til midnight or it's Goodbye Company!! Then you look out towards the Account Management department around 7:30pm - and all they've all gone home. Absolutely nobody ever hits retirement, looks back on a career and thinks: wow, I'm glad I spent all those late nights, and destroyed my social life and mental health for a Facebook Advert or whatnot.