The annual Teachers threaten to strike thread

deiseindublin

I feel like I'm in a parallel universe reading here.

Can somebody please link me to the teachers solo run on strike action?

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119011368#Comment_119011368

A universe where google doesn't exist? It was in all the papers.

Unless the implication was that the TUI and ASTI balloting for strike action wasn't a solo run, somehow, because other unions might have joined in (even though none of them were balloting).

The unions backed down with their tail between their legs pretty sharp this time, but not before doing even further damage to the teaching profession.

deiseindublin

Oh, so no strike then.

Geuze

Some information on pay rises in businesses in Dublin over the past year:

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2022/0503/1295755-dublin-firms-report-rise-in-non-wage-business-costs/

86% of firms increased salaries in 2021

10% of firms = average salary rise of 11% or more

33% of firms = 6% or more rise

53% of firms = 1%-5% rise

The PS increase in 2021 was 1%.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119011368#Comment_119011368

The claims of teachers making a solo run on strike action appears to be based upon a misinterpretation of a quote from the ASTI General Secretary Kieran Christie when the question was put to him as to whether industrial action could take place. His response was that the it was too early to look at that, but said the ASTI certainly wouldn’t be ruling it out -

When asked whether industrial action could take place, Christie said “it’s too early to look at that” – but said the ASTI “certainly” wouldn’t be ruling it out.

https://www.thejournal.ie/asti-pay-increases-cost-of-living-5741766-Apr2022/?amp=1

Later that same day, on the day of the ASTI conference (19th April), it was agreed to defer the ballot for industrial action on a range of pay issues -

Second-level teachers meeting in Cork have agreed to defer a proposal to ballot for industrial action on a range of pay issues including pay increases to help combat the rising cost of living.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2022/0419/1292992-teacher-conference/

That seems pretty straightforward as far as I’m concerned that there was never any threat of strike action being threatened by the teachers unions, so whatever motivated posters to hound @AndrewJRenko for an answer to a question that never came up amounts to nothing more than a misunderstanding on their part.

There is a bargaining clause in the Building Momentum deal which allows for groups to address longstanding issues, and in relation to teachers pay, there are many longstanding issues which haven’t been adequately addressed -

Fórsa general secretary Kevin Callinan said the sectoral bargaining clause was included in the Building Momentum agreement to allow groups to address longstanding issues.

It is understood that recent primary teacher recruits, school principals, deputy principals and nurse managers may be prioritised for a larger wage hike.

Sources said gardaí and teachers would see minimal impact from the recommendations, and that gardaí were in their own talks. 

However, in a tweet yesterday the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors (AGSI) said: “To clarify, AGSI have not had any discussions and will be seeking same to discuss the implications of this report when published.”

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/news/tds-pay-set-to-rise-under-public-sector-wage-agreement-41234601.html

The question of whether or not teachers are or aren’t worth more than other employees in the public sector just doesn’t arise. The clause exists to allow teachers or any other groups to address longstanding issues with pay as those issues pertain to their own groups. 1% rise on a TDs pay has a far greater positive impact on their purchasing power than a 1% increase on teachers pay, to the degree that it is specified that teachers pay will increase by 1%, or €500, whichever is greater. Try not to spend the €10 a week extra all in the one arts supplies shop for the children in their class… 😒

I’ve seen it go on, I’ve argued it shouldn’t be necessary for teachers to do it, but they’ve come back to me saying they want to do it because it’s for the children.

As for the arguments that funding a pay rise for teachers above 1% means it would impact negatively upon other income tax payers, this is simply not true, it’s a false dilemma. It might be a credible argument if income tax were the only source of revenue for the exchequer, but it’s not. Income tax in 2020 was €22.6Bn, of a total revenue of €82.3Bn -

https://www.revenue.ie/en/corporate/documents/research/income-tax-overview-2020.pdf

Gross receipts were €82.3 billion in 2020, including €15.4 billion in Non-Exchequer receipts collected on behalf of other Departments, Agencies and EU Member States (Table1).

Net Exchequer receipts of €56.2 billion were down by 3.6% or almost €2.1 billion on 2019, with the largest tax receipts arising from Income Tax (40% or €22.6 billion), VAT (22% or €12.5 billion) and Corporation Tax (21% or €11.8 billion) (Table 2).

Net Non-Exchequer receipts of €15.3 billion included €11.3 billion in respect of Pay Related Social Insurance (PRSI) and €774 million in respect of the Health Insurance Levy. It also included €482 million in respect of Local Property Tax (LPT), a tax administered and collected by Revenue with net receipts transferred to the Local Government Fund.

Notwithstanding the challenges brought about by the COVID-19 pandemic, overall timely compliance rates for 2020 across all tax heads (Table 5) were only marginally down on 2019. Reflecting the prevalence of a continued culture of strong voluntary compliance, timely compliance rates in 2020 were over 97% for large cases, 96% for medium cases and 87% for all other cases (Table 6). The Local Property Tax compliance rate was 94%.

Total debt was €6,738 million gross, and debt available for collection compared to 2019 increased by 29% to €1,182 million gross. The value of debt written off as uncollectable was €90 million. We facilitated 7,097 businesses and individuals with phased payment arrangements covering €125.7 million of debt.

https://www.revenue.ie/en/corporate/press-office/annual-report/2020/ar-2020.pdf

I’m less concerned about future generations ability to service our national debt than I would be if we don’t make substantial investment in their education now, to enable them to gain employment opportunities which would enable them to provide for themselves and their families, let alone concern themselves with servicing the national debt. Ms. Foley acknowledges that substantial investment in education is required.

I would argue that substantially more investment than the annual average investment of €10Bn is required if people were truly invested in future generations ability to generate wealth, which would not only service the national debt, but potentially reduce our Government’s habit of borrowing on international markets, and decrease our national debt to a level which is more manageable, thereby increasing everyone’s purchasing power, increasing consumer confidence, and getting inflation under control.

It’s far easier to achieve that idea when teachers are motivated and their passion for education isn’t taken for granted by people who imagine teachers provide nothing more than free daycare for their children, that teachers have it easy, and all the usual tropes. I love children, and I’m passionate about education, but the idea of being a teacher is tempered by the reality that most of any teachers time appears to be mired in bureaucracy and part-time teaching positions struggling to get a position where they can get tenure, and that’s just the new graduates -

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/our-teacher-supply-problem-isn-t-new-it-s-been-growing-for-almost-a-decade-1.4739320

The reality of teaching in Ireland isn’t long sucking the enthusiasm and passion for education out of newly qualified teachers, which is a terrible shame as it impedes their ability to educate children.

Expecting that teachers should be satisfied with a 1% increase in their pay (or €500, whichever is greater), amounts to insulting teachers and reminding them that their work is not valuable to Irish society, that they should just be grateful they’re getting any sort of a pay increase at all. It amounts to exploitation is all, especially when teachers are also expected to take on even more responsibility than they previously had, on top of the mind-numbing bureaucracy they already have to deal with.

When children are graduating from secondary level education with poorer standards of literacy and numeracy than previous generations, it isn’t teachers fault. It’s solely driven by the lack of investment in education in Ireland -

https://www.nala.ie/literacy-and-numeracy-in-ireland/

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119011516#Comment_119011516

As Jack noted (in usual long winded fashion), and I noted, the threat was made and gone very quickly this time, likely as a result to losing so much public support in previous years for previous stunts. Will be interesting if they dare proffer it again or go straight to "we're not striking" before the foot in mouth occurs.

But as said, it was covered in all major news outlets, in this universe at least.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119012813#Comment_119012813

No, I didn’t note any such nonsense. I noted and provided a source for the actual answer to the question, which is that there was never any proposal for strike action, nor was there any evidence to support the claims of any threat of strike action by teachers unions.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119012851#Comment_119012851

You literally quoted it:

When asked whether industrial action could take place, Christie said “it’s too early to look at that” – but said the ASTI “certainly” wouldn’t be ruling it out.

Why even answer that way when a simple no would have worked, then all the furore, then a back down. I'm guessing they'll go for a simple "no" next time.

It's been a chastening experience for the teacher unions over the past few years.

salonfire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119012028#Comment_119012028

That's a total lie, which makes you a liar.

Public servants are entitled to yearly increments and in some cases two increments at once.

Which means for the vast majority of them, the increase is more than 1%.

Geuze

When annual pay rises are discussed, it is implied that the whole pay scale moves up.

So it is normal to refer to a % pay rise, while not mentioning the payscale.

Note that pay scales with increments exist in the private sector.

Here is an example: Lidl

Customer Assistant: 12.90 to 14.90, with a 4 yr pay scale.

Store manager: 55k to 70k, with a 4 yr pay scale

If Lidl announce a 3% pay rise, that is in addition to the increments

Yes, you are correct, some PS will get increments.

Note that many will not, as they are at the top of their scale.

I know many PS who spend 20 years at top of scale.

deiseindublin

26 pages later, still no link to a strike, best that can be come up with is that (shock horror) one of three unions said they wouldn't rule it out.

Go and ask any union will they commit to not striking this year and see the answer you get.

salonfire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119013572#Comment_119013572

And plenty of other businesses don't have incremental scales, so of course they'll need to offer increases in the current environment.

For those at the top of their scale, why is that? There is no recruitment or promotion embargo. If they want further pay, work for it and get themselves promoted.

There's plenty of opportunities with how relatively common early retirement at the top of the CS is.

Geuze

Lots of staff at top of scale.

In my area, it's very competitive to get to next scale up, you must be a "leader". For those who aren't, they could be 20 years at top of scale.

I don't think that is bad, just pointing it out.

teachinggal123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119013997#Comment_119013997

Genuine question @deiseindublin ... let's imagine you have a student who you believe is about to be violent towards you or another student. You tell the student not to be violent, and his reply is that he 'won't rule it out'. You seem to be saying you would accept that answer?????

teachinggal123

Btw, it has been reported we did threaten to strike ...

https://redfm.ie/post/teachers-unions-threaten-to-strike-unless-pay-increased/

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/teacher-strike-threat-shelved-as-talks-over-new-public-sector-pay-deal-begin-1.4856796

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119015413#Comment_119015413

That’s not a valid analogy which reflects what actually happened though.

A valid analogy using similar circumstances would be a person asking a teacher if a student violates the code of behaviour, could they be subject to disciplinary action? The teacher responds that they wouldn’t rule it out.

The teacher in those circumstances, much like the union representative, is not in a position to determine whether or not disciplinary action is a certainty, and they have not threatened disciplinary action because the question is entirely hypothetical.

The teacher, much like the union representative, does not have the authority to determine what form of disciplinary action should take, but the possibility of suspension or expulsion does exist. In the same way, a union representative does not have the authority to determine what form industrial action should take, but the possibility of a strike does exist. It doesn’t mean anyone threatened disciplinary or industrial action, they just don’t have that authority.

In the case of industrial action, it would have to be determined by a ballot of their members. Similarly, in the case of disciplinary action, it would be the Board of Management which would determine whether suspension or expulsion is an appropriate action, if the Board haven’t delegated that responsibility to the Principal.

In any case it wouldn’t be the teacher who would be able to make that determination, any more than the union representative’s opinion could be construed as issuing a threat of strike action without the prior agreement of it’s members.

It being reported in the papers that one teachers union threatened strike action, means nothing.

teachinggal123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119015582#Comment_119015582

So, all the teachers are asking for a link to where the teachers unions threatened strike action. Then I give 2 links (there are many more but I couldn't be arsed at this stage), and then you say "It being reported in the papers that one teachers union threatened strike action, means nothing".

Are you a big Donald Trump fan?

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119015640#Comment_119015640

I don’t believe for a minute that your English comprehension is so poor that you don’t actually understand the difference between what someone says, and what the media reports. It’s covered in the media studies module at Junior Certificate level.

This is what was actually said, and I provided a source for it -

When asked whether industrial action could take place, Christie said “it’s too early to look at that” – but said the ASTI “certainly” wouldn’t be ruling it out.

https://www.thejournal.ie/asti-pay-increases-cost-of-living-5741766-Apr2022/?amp=1

That’s a long way from anything supporting the claim that teachers unions threatened to strike, notwithstanding the fact that the union in question deferred the ballot on industrial action, thereby never having threatened to take industrial action, let alone did they get as far as voting to strike, let alone threaten to strike. The article you linked to didn’t contain any sources in support of its claim that teachers unions threatened to strike.

It reported in the headline that teachers unions threaten to strike unless pay is increased, a claim which is misleading. Only later in the article is it made clear that they are referring to one teachers union (the ASTI), while the other two teachers unions will also be debating motions on wages, and there was no inference of any threat of strike action -

Elsewhere the the TUI and INTO are also holding their annual conferences and they will also be debating motions on wages

Debating motions on wages is not the same thing as debating motions on industrial action, which can take other forms besides a strike -

An industrial action is any action which may affect the terms of a contract which is taken by workers acting together to compel their employer “to accept or not to accept terms or conditions of or affecting employment.” Examples of industrial action include a work to rule, a picket, an overtime ban or a strike.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/industrial_relations_and_trade_unions/trade_disputes.html

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119013997#Comment_119013997

So, now the story of multiple posters is that it never happened and the union was backing down from an imaginary position:

The Association of Secondary Teachers’ of Ireland (ASTI) agreed on Tuesday to park a motion to ballot on potential strike action over pay after members agreed it was premature in advance of talks with the Government on pay.

The created reality is now that said motion did not ever exist... At least a majority of posters completely agree that we shouldn't treat the teachers differently to other members of the public service and they don't agree with a solo teacher run.

Undoubtedly, they will perform a Lindsay Graham the next time the teachers unions embarrass themselves further.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118998558#Comment_118998558

The dissatisfaction with public sector unions transcends boards and indeed transcends Ireland. It gets debated in other countries as well.