JK Rowling

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118992325#Comment_118992325

Then you are saying the butch women, including myself, who have been challenged in women's toilets/changing rooms etc are lying?

That it never happened?

How ironic during lesbian visibility week that someone should claim butch lesbians are never mistaken for men.

Gosh. That's some invalidation of women's lived experience right there.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118991820#Comment_118991820

Noone is pretending ffs. The statistics are there for all to see.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118992352#Comment_118992352

I'm sure it can happen.

Now, on the substantive point, am I right in thinking that as genital inspections are obviously not acceptable, and we can't tell the difference between men and women any other way, you think all bathrooms, changing rooms etc should be mixed sex? Is that correct?

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118991969#Comment_118991969

Why? Why are JK Rowlings opinions irrelevant. Why are you trying to pretend that trans people dont live in a heightened sense of fear? Have you actually spoken to any trans people about it?

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118992417#Comment_118992417

Disgusting that you claim that reported transphobic hate crime incidents are all pretense. Shame on you. Absolutely and utterly shameful.

Bannasidhe

I personally never called JKR a homophobe.

I have no doubt she is a transphobe as she has made it abundantly clear that she does not accept trans women as women. No more evidence is needed. I am taking her word as to her beliefs.

On the homophobe thing she reminds of the time a lot of nice upper middle class men and women attended a play in a small theatre attached to a pub in Islington in the mid 80s. The pub was unofficially a gay pub. Wouldn't have been found in any guide books but was name checked in a lot of novels etc. During intermission the cliental was a mixture of the usual queer end of the spectrum regulars, the old Irish men who had been going there 50 years, and a huzzah of Sarah Ferguson clones and their Hurrah Henry partners there to watch Beckett.

You could see the moment the penny dropped with the visitors. A mass exodus resulted as they went to other nearby pubs to use the toilets (pubs phoned to tell us - there was much laughter). No doubt every single one of them would have denied being homophobic... they just didn't want to use the same loos as gay people for....reasons.

This was the climate the produced Section 28. They weren't 'homophobic', but bet if pressed they would say they were 'concerned about children and grooming'.

JKR has used her influence and social media reach to spread her belief that gender is immutable, it is, in her sincere belief, inextricably linked to biological sex .

She has allied herself with people determined to detach the T from the LGB. She is also on the 'same side' as right-wing and religious fundamentalists who are openly homophobic. Her presence lends them respectability and credibility. Her voice amplifies theirs - albeit possibly unintentionally - the result is the same. Rowling is now, ironically, taking a stance that would align her with Trump and his base.

We see in the U.S where States with a track record of transphobic legislation are now emboldened to enact openly homophobic legislation. Florida, where just a few short years ago a mass murder was carried out in a gay bar, now has laws in place that would make Putin happy.

Did Rowling do this? No.

Has she openly supported it? No

Is she helping to create an environment where this is becoming possible? Yes

Have LGBT activists been warning about the upsurge in hate propaganda/anti LGBT laws/hate crime for years? Yes.

How did we know? Because we have been here before. We recognise the build up, the language, the dog whistles.

We knew what it meant when in 2019 a Drag Storytime event was cancelled in the most socially liberal area of Ireland - Dún Laoghaire- Rathdown - by the local council due to the level of homophobic abuse received. Being able to get married didn't make us safe.

Rowling is not a stupid woman by any means. She is media savvy, and protective of her image. This begs the questions why she continues spreading an ideology beloved of the right-wing U.S Republicans she spent the Trump years disparaging. She cannot have failed to notice the parallels between transphobia and homophobia in the rhetoric of the far right. Nevertheless she persists..

She may be a swan, but she's still in the duck pond making quacking noises along with the mallards.

In terms of Ireland - to the surprise of myself and other old hands - we are are becoming an outlier in a good way. It is currently safer to be gay in Ireland than in the UK or large parts of the U.S. - no-one back in the 80s/90s would ever have though that would happen.

But it is under threat - and the toe in the door is the likes of UK based GCs trying to export transphobia to Ireland. So far they have failed but, I'll give them this, they are determined.

Why is this personal to some of us here in this thread and this forum?

Because this is our lives, and that of our friends. This is us.

Even in this forum designated that LGBT 'Safe space' on Boards has seen not only scant regard for trans people - despite mod warnings about the charter - it has also seen more than one appallingly homophobic post. And a notable lack of condemnation, or distancing, from visitors to the forum.

We fought damn hard to get where we are, and we did it together. We know who stood alongside us in the 80s during the AIDS epidemic, the 90s when gay men were being beaten to death and their killers walked free - Declan Flynn wasn't the only one. We know the history because we lived it. Gay men are again being beaten to death in Ireland - and yes. Us activists do see this as part of the rising tide in global hate for LGBTQ people. The reason for the phobia is immaterial - the issue is it's increasingly open existence.

Now, we are being told by people who weren't there that the fight for our civil rights didn't happen the way we say. Even well known activists like Panti, Tonie Walsh, Izzy Kamikaze are being told their memories (and the photos!) are wrong. Now that is gaslighting.

As is claiming butch women are never mistaken for men because 'science/statistics'. Izzy actually started a thread on twitter where she posts every time it happens to her, quite a few women have posted their experiences. It's turning into a fairly long thread. But - so I have been told here - that never happens because one can ALWAYS tell. I am being told that couldn't possibly have happened to me. That is also gaslighting.

*awaiting being told that the real victims of gaslighting are the gaslighters*

Ireland has had gender recognition legislation for 7 years.

Where are all the reports of women being attacked by sexual predators 'pretending' to be women in the toilets of Ireland?

Where are the floodgates of young people being 'forced' to transition?

All that is happened in 7 years is around 500 people aged over 18 have had their gender identity officially recognised. That is trans men and trans women. 500 out of a population of c5 million.

0.01% of the population.

Wonder what the percentage of threads about trans people in CA is? Certainly more than 0.01%.

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118992417#Comment_118992417

What are the statistics per ratio of the population?

Given percentage wise trans people are nearly non-existent, but biological females count for 48-52%.

By the way - I am old enough to remember being told that the rape and assault of women and girls was statistically not an issue. Turns out women and girls weren't reporting it. Didn't fancy having their underwear displayed in court and being cross examined about their sex lives. Oh, wait... that still happens...

I have to say as a rape victim (who didn't report it) what you are saying here disgusts me.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118992770#Comment_118992770

Be whatever gender you want.

A woman is an adult female. Female isn't a gender

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118992732#Comment_118992732

Yeah that poster claimed that reports of transphobic hate crime are all pretense. Shameful transphobia. Deeply shameful.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118992859#Comment_118992859

With respect. For someone who claims not to be bothered you get extremely hot and bothered about it. You are endlessly obsessed with policing, gatekeeping and controlling trans peoples lives.

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118992859#Comment_118992859

And that position is, as much as you wish to parse it, transphobic.

And contradictory.

It reads as be 'whatever gender you want as long as you are the one appropriate to your biology'. How very Henry Ford and his (urban myth) statement about car colours.

Woman is a gender.

Female is biology.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118992871#Comment_118992871

With all due respect, your claims that the definition of a woman is gatekeeping, and simultaneously labelling anyone who disagrees with you as a bigot is laughable.

I am bothered when someone claims that a man can be every bit a woman as a biological woman.

That is no way denying or denigrating the existence of transpeople

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118992907#Comment_118992907

Do try and dial back on the passive aggressive nonsense. I am quite proud of my activism in the LGBTQ community over the past 40 odd years actually. Thanks.

I also don't need you to tell me what I want or don't. I am perfectly capable of expressing myself. I do not give you consent to put words in my mouth.

It's not very respectful of me as a woman to twist my words or tell me what I should 'own'. Are you not all about protecting biological women and our rights or am I mistaken? Is it just those biological women who agree with your definition of what being 'safe' means? For all I know you are a man. Can't always tell and all that. Are you a man telling me what I want? Could be.

Not sure of you are being obtuse or disingenuous on the whole 'we can always tell' trope.

Butch biologically female women are being harassed, day in day out, in so-called 'women's spaces' - and your glib response is it won't happen if men aren't allowed in? Then why did it happen long before GRA was brought in anywhere? Why does it happen in conservative States in the U.S?

I am sorry if this is confusing for you but having a rant about an author and a comedian really didn't address the question I asked.

I will repeat it - since you have grudgingly acknowledged, (having previous stated categorically was 100% not possible despite women's testimonies being provided), that masculine presenting biologically females can and have been challenged when attempting to use women's toilets how they should 'prove' their right to enter a 'women's space'?

BTW - as I said, I know nothing about Aiden Comerford - this is the second time you have referred to his alleged abusive behaviour. I say alleged as despite being asked you have yet to provide a shred of evidence. Why does proof of Rowling's transphobia need to be provided time and time again but you can make serious accusations about a gay man and fail to provide a shred of proof even when requested?

Double standards no?

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118993062#Comment_118993062

You continously claim trans people dont bother you. Your obsession with controlling aspects of their lives shows otherwise.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118993173#Comment_118993173

Funny how you and other posters all claim to stand up for lesbians and women but when they point out that the reality of their lives they are suddenly liars. More disgusting shameful posting on display here.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118993316#Comment_118993316

Why are you so obsessed about how people define?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118993345#Comment_118993345

I'm not. Ive said on multiple occasions that a definition of oneself is personal to that individual. It's when others are compelled to agree when it flies in the face of objective reality, it becomes an issue.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118993399#Comment_118993399

Thats the thing. You keep saying multiple times you dont care. Saying it all the time though shows otherwise.

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118993100#Comment_118993100

Ok.

Now that reads as "you can call yourself whatever you like but have no right to expect anyone else to respect that."

In the US a person with one drop of African blood was considered black - that was their assigned 'race'. Immutable as you put it. That person could have blond hair and blue eyes and present to the world as white. - What race were they? Under the Jim Crow laws should they have been allowed to dine inside at the counter due to their skin colour or outside due to their assigned race?

I have know people born with dwarfism who underwent years of grueling surgeries to increase their 'immutable' height. If stating their height on their passport should they put their 'immutable' pre-surgery height or their medically altered post-surgery height?

And that last statement might be your belief, but it is not mine. Or the view of the Irish government. The law literally says you are incorrect.

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118993173#Comment_118993173

Right.

JK hanging out with transphobes doesn't mean she is a transphobe, but one out of many butch biological females who reported being harassed in women's toilets is a trans activist therefore all the women who have reported this across the world, including myself, are telling untruths. Even the ones in Florida. Have you found their links to Stonewall yet?

Gotta love the people who come into the LGBT forum to call members of the community liars when we discuss our lived experience.

When I say love I actually mean roll my eyes at and sigh.

Big Bag of Chips

Closed for Mod review

Ten of Swords

Thread has had a third major cleanup with a large number of off topic posts being removed.

Despite multiple mod warnings to read the LGBT forum charter there was still a constant stream of CA style posts arguing the definition of a woman and snide transphobic digs, neither is acceptable in this forum and posters making such posts risk a warning or a ban.

The argument in this thread has gone in circles for some time, getting progressively more nasty, and the temptation to stray off topic seems to great for some contributors.

If there is a particular appetite to continue the discussion PM me and I will consider it, otherwise this thread will remain closed