Happy St. George's Day.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120522267#Comment_120522267

I don't think native dancing or folklore is inherently esoteric. It's understood and practiced by very few people at the moment but there's nothing exclusive about it. Monarchy and nobility are inherently esoteric. But that's the history they push.

We take for granted in Ireland how everyone knows about the likes of Cu Chulainn. Every time I drive through Kildare I think about it. There's a place near my home named Ballyfin which is supposedly named because it's where Fionn Mac Cumhaill hung out with the fianna. We have connections to that folklore in loads of intangible ways that are part of everyday life.

We have it built into celebrations in simple ways like having a sing-song at a family occasion.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120522328#Comment_120522328

I disagree that it's esoteric. The decisions that the likes of Henry VIII and others made have shaped this country. I think it's well worth studying. Morris dancing and the like has no relevance to me.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120522341#Comment_120522341

It's not just about consequence though. Its also about shared culture. You can learn about King Charles, but you'll never go and spend time with him and actually get to know him up close. I consider Irish dancing a part of my culture and I can go to see it, I could take part in it if my knees were up to it, and I could bring my children to see it and feel part of it. You can learn about Henry 8th (and it's certainly an important historical event) but it's not really a normal English person's culture. It's the culture of the royals and the nobility in England, but it's pretty inaccessible to anyone else.

But it's the part of their history that they focus on while they ignore the history of the common people. That's pretty sad.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120522235#Comment_120522235

Here’s the problem summed up. You say “Their culture is at serious risk if they dont actively learn it, practice it and teach it to the next generation”.

this is exactly the nonsense going on around pouring millions into things like Irish language. Culture is happening now. It should evolve naturally and not be about what the great and the good want to ‘educate’ people in.

This is exactly why orange order is fading away while loyalist bands are energised and mushrooming. If it was down to “practice it and teach it to the next generation” and the suits funding it, then the suits would have chose the OO over the loyalist bands. Thankfully Ulster-British culture evolved naturally and no one directed it with money. Unfortunately Irish culture is not free to evolve. Money is poured into what the powerful think should be protected or what Irish Americans like Biden think are romantic, hence you end up with Guinness, fiddly-dee music and leprechauns (and Guinness isn’t even yours)

let your people go with the flow and stop naval gazing about oirish. Relax and stop having to convince yourselves that you have the richest culture. It’s not culture if it needs your people to “actively learn it, practice it and teach it”.

maybe Irish culture is actually the ‘looking back’ and the ‘wanting nothing to change’, where our British culture is relaxed and happy that Boy George, Stiff Little Fingers, football, fish and chips, and the monarchy are all part of our wonderful culture

FrattonFred

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120523425#Comment_120523425

the history taught in school must have changed then, because we learned very little about St George but did learn about Peterloo, the Tolpuddle martyrs etc.

or it could just be that you have no clue what you’re talking about.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120524461#Comment_120524461

How is Guinness not Irish?

Thats an interesting one.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120524501#Comment_120524501

A true Brit. Here in one of your more republican papers. from the 1700s to the 1080s it’s clear where their hearts lay https://www.anphoblacht.com/contents/23408

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120524461#Comment_120524461

It kinda seems you wanted an excuse to talk about NI culture. I haven't mentioned money, suits or the Irish language. But it sounds like loyalist culture is thriving. If that's what you're into, great. The loyalists must be a pretty cheery bunch.

But in fairness, in your attempt to shoehorn NI politics into the discussion, you raise an interesting point. It doesn't take money or suits because I think the bits of culture that are really important happen at home on your grandparents knee listening to stories, organically at a sing-song and when people just organise a occasion parade or whatever facilitates expression of the culture.

But above all else, I think culture is best expressed and most enduring when it doesn't need to wind up the "other side" to be enjoyable. To be fair to NI, they seem to really enjoy winding each other up with their celebrations. Without the pushback, I suspect neither side would be quite as into the more mundane parts of their culture that don't wind anyone up such as folklore.

I don't mind if Guinness isn't ours. We use it to great effect to bind people together and have the craic. It's pretty recognisable around he world as Irish. Similar with St Patrick. He wasn't strictly ours either but we use it as a tool to rally around and express the culture. Doesn't harm anyone, job's a good'ne

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120524492#Comment_120524492

I wasn't in school in England so I take your word for it. School is important but it isn't the only place where culture and history happens. Just as an example, do they have many songs about those events that you'd often hear down the pub or at family occasions? Do people often tell stories about them and keep their memory alive?

Songs and stories are just examples and jot the only way to do it. How do normal English people celebrate those events and keep their memories alive in the culture?

FrattonFred

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120525425#Comment_120525425

English people do it the same way the French, German and Spanish people do.

Ireland is probably the most self obsessed country in Europe. No other country sat down 150 years ago and decided that to be "X" then you need to worship in this manner, sing these type of songs and play these sports. In every other country, culture grows and changes as the people grow and change. Ireland, with its very limited immigration and insular view, is still clutching on to the comely maidens at the crossroads view of itself.

Ireland is very much the outlier, not the UK.

Badly Drunk Boy

Since this thread is about St George's Day...on the quiz Pointless today, there was a round about 'April' where they asked 100 members of the public to give answers relating in different ways to April. One of the questions was "On what date in April is St George's Day?". 31 out of 100 got it right.

Just sayin'...

buried

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120525598#Comment_120525598

Are you from the UK Frattonfred?

Not being confrontational or anything, but if you are, what do you think about your islands prehistoric past, it's actual indigenous past? The likes of the monuments found at Stonehenge or the Orkney islands? Do you find any merit or association to those actual and astounding indigenous cultural achievements?

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120525598#Comment_120525598

Excellent post. Spot on.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120525382#Comment_120525382

Here we go again. Another example of the predominant Irish attitude of we are right/better/etc.

you challenge me for ‘shoehorning’ northern Irish culture into this thread on English culture - this after you and others have posted endless posts on the thread ‘shoehorning’ on Irish culture. This is an example of the lack of perception I am talking about.

And again, why should culture be learnt on the knee of your grandparents? Let it evolve. I can think of lots would be learnt on the knee of grandparents that we have have left behind in a move to embracing diversity and inclusion.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120525382#Comment_120525382

Your wee attack on me for daring to bring northern Irish culture into the English/Irish culture discussion is a bit strange.

you seem to have this rosy pure view of ‘Irish’ culture - or ‘craic’ as you say. Your use of ‘the craic’ just emphasis how recent and imported much Irish culture is - an that’s healthy in my view. If us British hadn’t have lived among you, you wouldn’t have many aspects of your culture eg ‘the craic’, set dancing, Guinness, etc, etc.

specifically you should thank those nasty Black Nordies for ‘the craic’, and I would suggest much of the humour https://www.dictionary.com/e/word-of-the-day/craic-2018-03-17/?ssp=1&darkschemeovr=0&setlang=en-GB&safesearch=moderate

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120525598#Comment_120525598

In the context of the present thread, England is the outlier, not Ireland. England is unique, or nearly so, in not having a widely-celebrated national and public holiday to celebrate its national culture and identity. (Nor does the UK as a whole have such a holiday.) Ireland has St. Patrick's day, France has the Fête nationale, Germany has the Tag der Deutschen Einheit and Spain has the Día de la Hispanidad, but England has nothing. (Nor does the UK as a whole have such a holiday.)

And I think this points to a wider truth; the English don't reflect very much on what it means to be English, in marked distinction to the Irish, the French, etc. Obviously some popular tropes do circulate (English beer, cricket, the royal family, etc) but for the most part these tropes are fairly shallow and, when they are discussed, it's often half-jokingly. Anybody who gets too obsessed about Englishness, English values, etc, is assumed to be on the political right and, often, quite far down on the political right. That assumption wouldn't be made in most other countries.

It's ironic, perhaps, that one of the most distinctive things about Englishness is that it's not very English to think too much about Englishness.

Most of modern Europe is the product, over the past 150 years or so, of political nationalism - the view that the nation is the proper basis for the state; that each nation has the right (and arguably the duty) to govern itself by establishing its own state. Most countries in Europe are the product of this philosophy, either because they broke away from a multinational state (Poland, Ireland, Norway, Finland, Hungary, Czechia, Slovakia and many more) or because it was formed by unifying multiple states united by a common nationality (Italy, Germany). Naturally this process fosters a good deal of reflection about nation and culture.

The UK never went through that experience. Instead, the UK is one of a very few European states that are the surviving rump of a multinational state that broke apart under the pressures of nationalism — the others are Russia and Austria. I think most Britons wouldn't immediately recognise that description of the UK because — in keeping with the general theme — it's not an aspect of the UK's story and identity that is much reflected on.

FrattonFred

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120526002#Comment_120526002

Not sure what you mean by association. I find it hard to associate with anything that is thousands of years old because the experiences of the people who lived then are so far removed from our own

I find these places fascinating though. We studied Maiden Castle quite a bit when I was very young (just before going to secondary school I think) and it is fascinating, as is the whole Stonehenge/Avebury etc site.

it also intrigues me as to why our ancestors didn’t spend one winter in the Orkneys and think **** this, I’m going back to cousin grunt’s in Malaga.

FrattonFred

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120526380#Comment_120526380

you mis understand my point.

That reflection on what it is to be English isn't reflected on much, because it has become a very broad thing and means different things to different people.

To some it is the place they were born in as were the last X generations of their family, to others it is where they ancestors found refuge after they were expelled from another state, to others it is where they were brought against their wishes, but still call it home. it is a melting pot of cultures, colours, faiths and ethnicities, where the most popular music has its origins in Africa, its food in India and its sport, played by a multitude of ethnicities is very much English, but now enjoyed by the world.

In Ireland you play Gaelic games and anything else is a foreign sport and the only place to get a decent sausages is SuperQuin (I know it doesn't exist anymore) which is far better than any of that foreign muck.

Anyone that isn't a white Gaelic Catholic who enjoys Hurling and a good old hooley is either a jackeen, a prod (aka a souper) or any other multitude of insults to indicate that they aren't really Irish.

Peregrinus

I take it you haven't lived in Ireland much for the past twenty or thirty years?

(Apart from your comments about sausages. I'll give you that. Obviously, Irish sausages are superior to the English offering.)

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120525074#Comment_120525074

Interesting that you allocate his Irishness/Britishness based on political and religious beliefs, rather than focusing on where he was actually born and raised and where he and his family lived.

But that is a NI type of mentality.

He was born in Kildare.

He was Irish.

Guiness was and obviously still is, brewed in Dublin.

Its an Irish drink, likley brewed originally with yeast sourced from kildare, where his original brewery was.

FrattonFred

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120526944#Comment_120526944

15 years and counting,

Which probably makes me more entitled to comment on the Irish than someone who has never lived in England is about the English.

Granted, it is changing but very very slowly, despite having a Taoiseach whose "Grandfather was not part of the history of this country".

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120526364#Comment_120526364

You seem to think it would be hard for me to thank the nordies for any contribution to my culture. It isn't. It just part of the rich tapestry of the culture.

If Arthur Guinness was an active unionist and opposed the revolution, so what? It's almost like you struggle to understand that we can move on down south.

I can disagree with Arthur Guinness' opinion and still know its part of the history and culture and enjoy it.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120527614#Comment_120527614

Exactly.

Thats the difference between Unionists in the north living in their tiny, religion inflated bubble and someone from the Republic.

Religious/Political division isnt the goto divider for people from the Republic.

If they are born in Ireland, they are irish. enough said. Arthur was Irish.

But hardline unionists always seek to divide not by nationality or birth, but by political affinity to the crown/protestant belief.

As if we were still living in the 1700s.

Of course, thats the reason the Dinosaurs Under Protection (DUP) party hold back Northern Ireland from becoming a progressive, forward thinking country, capable of developing a strong private sector economy & leveraging their unique "one foot in and one foot out" of the EU opportunity.

The younger generations in NI will slowly erode the religious bias, but in the meantime, it is the Republic that benefits from NI's cyclical ability to cut its own nose off (stunt its economy) to spite its face (so it can exclaim how British it is - even though most Brits couldnt give two hoots about NI and indeed many dont even know its not part of the Republic of Ireland)

Not meant to be a dig at Downcow here or any other NI posters & apologies if any offence is caused.

Just a general observation.

indioblack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120522153#Comment_120522153

Thanks for the reply. It's not so much needing it spelled out as detail, balance. There's never been more knowledge easily accessed than today - for those who wish to avail themselves of it, or feel the need to do so. The automatic assumption of universal ignorance is to often trotted out - and doesn't stand up.

indioblack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120526002#Comment_120526002

Had to smile at this one.

Years ago I took an Irish relative to visit Stonehenge, Silbury Hill, West Kennet Long Barrow and the Avebury stone circle. Afterwards my relative turned to me and asked, "Have you nothing round here but old stones?"

riffmongous

Something I think hasn't been mentioned yet is how popular Poppy Day has become, that seems to be just as popular as St Patrick's day is in Ireland

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120528387#Comment_120528387

Where? I dont recall any parades or bank holidays for Poppy Day?

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120527018#Comment_120527018

I said he was a Brit. And he was a Brit. So I don’t get your point.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120527018#Comment_120527018

I’m not sure you are correct. He was born and lived in The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland which was a  sovereign state. My hunch is he was British. He certainly wanted to be British so I can’t imagine why he would not be in the same way I am.

you might need to revisit you history there.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120528927#Comment_120528927

He was Irish. He was born and lived in Ireland.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120528980#Comment_120528980

Nope.

He was born and lived in Ireland and the brewery was first in Kildare and then Dublin.

Guinness will always be known as an Irish drink. The world over.

Ask any englishman.

Maybe not in some quarters of NI, i grant you.

But i dont think many outside of NI care too much about that.

Tom Mann Centuria

Well I had a nice St. George's Day, surprised it generated this many posts this year.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120528927#Comment_120528927

I don't mind if he was a brit (UK presumably since Britain is the other island). But he might have identified as a Brit. That's his choice.

But what's the story with trying to yell other people they're wrong for enjoying their culture? That seems to be a big part of it in NI. Enjoyment of someone's own culture is focused on either annoying the other side or telling them why their culture isn't really valid.

Would you find it as interesting if nobody opposed your culture or you couldn't have a pop at Irish culture aspart of celebratory own?

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120529037#Comment_120529037

Good. What do you do to mark it?

Tom Mann Centuria

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120529064#Comment_120529064

Beer! Had a chat with my siblings over video chat too. Not specifically discussing St George I'd add :pac:, but was a good excuse to catch up, as we do most years.

FrattonFred

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120529372#Comment_120529372

it's a shame the six nations organising committee couldn't get their act together and get the Rugby played on St George's day. It would have been nice to have see an England team running out on St George's day.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120529062#Comment_120529062

I was simply reacting to the attitude of many on here who were saying that British culture was inferior simply because it was not based on the things some Irish folk wish to regard as culture. They were then also claiming the likes of ‘the craic’ as somehow Irish when in fact it was brought over from the mainland by Presbyterians.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120529372#Comment_120529372

That's the way! I genuinely wish more English people did that kind of thing. They'd be happier for it.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120529675#Comment_120529675

Not inherently superior. Shur culture is just culture. It's about how you use use it. But irish culture is certainly practiced more thoroughly, regularly, casually and inclusively.

I don't mind where the craic comes from. It's ours now. Wouldn't you agree?

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120529529#Comment_120529529

That would probably give it a boost.

Gallagher premiership played on St George's weekend. They could have marked it then. I dont know if they did or not.

silliussoddius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120529675#Comment_120529675

No offence, but I don't associate craic with the kind of people who ban fishing on Sundays.

FrattonFred

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120529842#Comment_120529842

If they had, then there would have been plenty of people on Boards complaining about bringing politics in to sport and how the Gallagher premiership is really a franchise and they should keep nationalism out of it, or whatever shite people complain about where the premiership teams wear poppies.

I was referring to the Ireland v England game which took place the day before.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120530605#Comment_120530605

Maybe some would complain. It would depend on how it's done. I was thinking more of the people using it than the institutions using it.

If a 6n game takes place on St Patrick's weekend, the players don't have to wear anything. But the people can wear their shamrocks and dress up to celebrate and knock a bit of fun out of it. Pretty uncontroversial stuff.

Is it less fun it's it's uncontroversial?

FrattonFred

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120530717#Comment_120530717

it should be done in a way where no **** are given.

everything is controversial these days. We are all supposed to avoid saying or doing anything for fear of upsetting someone.

We've already heard from a poster who despite living in England, is reviled by the site of an English flag, so not giving a **** about the easily offended is the only way forward.

Unfortunately, too many people do care, which is why people are too afraid to really celebrate St George's day.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120531749#Comment_120531749

You find wearing shamrock to a match on St Patrick's day controversial?

Of course fcuks should be given. It's easy to celebrate culture in ways that don't try to wind others up.

Why would you want to do it in a way thsy upsets others? Why wouldn't you want it to be inclusive? I think st George is off to a bad start with his association with the crusades. Invading other countries and killing muslims was cool in the past but its a bit controversial now. I'm sure the English would see the problem if the shoe was on the other foot and someone dressed up a republican paramilitary from the 80s to celebrate St Patrick's day.

But I'm glad we have lots of ways of celebrating Irish culture with inclusiveness and without harming anyone. Surely there are ways to celebrate St George's day without being controversial.

Would it be less fun if it didn't upset anyone?does knowing it winds others up add to it? Is exclusivity part of the celebration?

FrattonFred

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120532013#Comment_120532013

and straight away you find controversy in St George's day, as well as going over the top about offending people. No one wants to see the NF parading through London on St George's day ever again and your attempt at making out I somehow find enjoyment in offending people is a pretty poor to be honest.

Whatever the English do though, the Irish will find some way of finding it controversial and bellyaching about it. That's why not giving a **** is the best way forward.

by the way, as the bastion of Irish Culture, what are your thoughts on the number of Mitchell's GAA clubs around the country and the GAA's absolute failure to address any controversy with that?

El_Duderino 09

You assumed any celebration of St George would have to be offensive. I asked if you can think of any ways of doing it that wouldn't be uncontroversial. You didn't respond to that. Didn't seem to catch you attention at all.

I also asked, twice, if the celebration being controversial makes it more fun. You haven't actually engaged with either of those questions.

I asked if wearing a bunch of shamrock is offensive or controversial, but you didn't respond to that. It seems you have no interest in engaging with any discussion of celebrating Georges day without including controversy. Maybe you'll prove me wrong and engage with that part of the discussion.

I don't know about the Mitchell's GAA clubs. I'll Google it later.

Edit. I Google it and I found a child sex abuse story in Mayo, a club in Belfast accused of links to republicans. And a Mitchel with links to slavery. Which story are you talking about? I suppose it goes without saying I don't have a strong opinion on the story since I don't know about it.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120529807#Comment_120529807

(ironically) This is exactly the superiority I mean highlighted in your post. You really think the craic is better in Ireland than anywhere else?. Just nonsense. I travel all over Europe with OWC football team. Everywhere I go I enjoy the local craic and embrace it, and I also enjoy the craic we bring to them. Ireland is not the centre of the universe. The craic is great everywhere and nobody does it better than anyone else, everyone just does it a bit different.

to be really honest. I have not a note in my head and i have zero interest in most music, hence I have less craic at Irish events that most as there is the incredible focus on didlydee music, imho.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120530210#Comment_120530210

I bet you the fish do. I bet you the fish have some craic on the river Maine in ballymena on a Sunday.

you want to have a wee think about your prejudice

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120533302#Comment_120533302

Hard to know if I phrased it poorly or you're just not picking it up as intended.

"Not inherently superior. Shur culture is just culture. It's about how you use use it. But irish culture is certainly practiced more thoroughly, regularly, casually and inclusively".

So when I said it's not inherently superior because culture is just culture and it depends on how you use it. That seems fairly hard to misinterpret. But I'll clarify it for you. I mean that cultures aren't superior or inferior to each other. They can be practiced and passed on to a greater or lesser extent. And in my opinion, Irish culture is practiced as I described. Its also inclusive, demonstrated by the millions of people who feel they can take part in things like St Patrick's day around the world. I think that's good use of the culture.

We also use the culture to have the craic. Which I also thinknit good use of the culture. I don't think we patented craic. I know everyone has cultures which they practice to a greater or lesser degree. That should go without saying but you needed it to be said explicitly.

So to directly answer the question in your post; no. I don't (and didn’t) say the craic is better in Ireland than anywhere else. I do think we practice the culture, inclusively, pretty well.

I'm trying to anticipate how you could misinterpret this. Do you see thedifference between how you interpreted it and how I meant it?