Happy St. George's Day.

silliussoddius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120533308#Comment_120533308

Imagine himself turning up in Ballymena to feed thousands, and he can only get his hands on loaves. Wouldn't be much of miracle then, not a dollaghan to be seen.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120533396#Comment_120533396

I am not sure this (But irish culture is certainly practiced more thoroughly, regularly, casually and inclusively) could be interpreted any other way than, that you think irish culture is practiced MORE thoroughly, regularly, casually and inclusively than other cultures? Help me of you mean something different

you seem to not get the arrogance and lack of perception in that statement - or maybe you care to explain ‘more than who?’

Its back to you defining everyone’s culture through Irish goggles.

Let’s examine your nonsense. Association football including the EPL is a huge piece of British culture. More people attend British football matches EVERY WEEK than attend the St Patrick’s parades totals all across Ireland. 4.7billion of the world’s population watch British football regularly. Doesn’t seem like a culture no one is interested in

that’s all before we even add cricket, the royalty, etc. then you have the diversity of localised British cultures like Hogmanay celebrations in Scotland, real ale festivals in England, marching bands in OWC, male choirs in Wales.

I just find the arrogance of this thread ‘we are Irish, and nobody does it like us’, actually represents an attitude that could be defined as an aspect of oirish culture.

now as for inclusivity - you cannot be serious that you think Irish culture is MORE inclusive than the rest. Do you realise there are 1 million people )at least) on this tiny island who feel so excluded by aspects of your culture that they stay away. Don’t force me to post pics and videos of eg the burning of other nations flags at st Patrick’s events, large crowds chanting support to terrorists at many of your cultural events, etc,etc. there may actually not be another culture in the world that is as openly exclusive towards neighbours as some aspects of Irish culture on this island.

so really some posters on here need to get real. Large aspects of Irish culture are wonderful, and seem great fun and something you can rightly be proud of, but less of the silly arrogance around either ‘we are the best’ or ‘we are the most inclusive’

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120534713#Comment_120534713

You asked for help. I'll help. I was talking about how it's practiced. You even quoted me saying it's practiced more thoroughly, regularly, casually and inclusively. That doesn't mean the culture is superior. It means its practiced more than some other cultures. I've said this a few times so I'm not sure why you're not getting it.

I've also said that cultures aren't superior or inferior. I've said that a few times too. I'm kpt sure how many times I could.

If the English practice going to soccer as practicing their culture, then fair enough. That's a strong practice. I'll ask a few friends later today who are going to support their local lower league teams. I'll let you know what they say.

There was a poster yesterday who suggested any celebration of St George has to be controversial. I asked if they can think of any uncontroversial ways to celebrate St george and they haven't responded yet. Another poster said they had a few pints and called their family. That sounds like a good, uncontroversial way to do it.

As for the northern Irish practice of culture. I've suggested a few times that expression of culture in NI seems to thrive on winding up the other side. They're a different breed up there. They seem to enjoy winding each other up and being wound up, so as long as they make themselves and each other happy, then I'd leave them to it. I wouldn't associate myself heavily with either side up there.

looksee

I started a reply to this thread but then realised how futile it was. There will always be a small percentage of people who are so insecure that they have to big up whatever they do to make it more significant and important than anything anyone else does. Leave them at it.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120534776#Comment_120534776

Well you would accept my analysis that Irish culture is not practised MORE and is not MORE inclusive than others? Quite the contrary.

I’m not sure any of us have defined what culture is, but if it is not your friends going to lower league games then I don’t know what is.

I would guess if you asked people on the other side of the globe what aspects of British or Irish culture they follow and enjoy, I would argue that British would come way above Irish. They would likely name the Premier League and may never even been aware of GAA. They’d probably name the British monarchy but would never have heard of president Higgins. Etc etc.

all I am saying is many (not all) Irish think the world is infatuated with them. Most non-Europeans I talk to think Ireland is actually part of Britain.

as for you trying to push the worst aspects of exclusive Irish culture unto the northern Irish, I can assure you it is alive and well at most Irish cultural events.

I see Electric Picnic is pitching itself as the biggest music gathering in Ireland - and it has ensured the event will come c/w ooh a up the ra chants and anti British songs.

It says it’s worlds most unique - I can’t argue with that. I don’t know anywhere else in the world where it would be thought appropriate to invite along groups to a music festival who were going to eulogise terrorists who murdered local men women and children. ONLY IN IRELAND. But sure is only a bit of craic and part of our culture. And if the Brits who live on this island stay away then it will just demonstrate they are the problem as they should be more inclusive and embrace the ra song culture

indioblack

It's not surprising that this has become confusing. Who gets to define the parameters of a nations culture, [in this case, England], and whether it is being observed, ["practiced"], sufficiently? How is this being evaluated, and by what standards? For some culture would be a broad church, umbrella word. Is it being claimed that people aren't "practicing" their culture conciously - as if there was some obligation to do so. And if it's done unconciously - well, I don't know where that line of thinking leads me! [To even more confusion I suspect].

If, for the sake of argument, it's considered that the English are not practicing elements of their culture, [which , at the same time, they appear to be unaware of], - so what? They'll just do something else.

If also segments of the English population don't know their history - well, I suspect that will lead us down another road!

There. Is it confusing, or futile as a poster has stated?

Yep.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120534859#Comment_120534859

Do you u know what? You're right orish culture is truly dreadful. With all its diddleydee music and exclusive parades. Hard to see how it persists...

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120537267#Comment_120537267

i think you’ll find I said quite the opposite. Much Irish culture is great and many attending cultural events are great. My point is that some on here are painting it as somehow better and more inclusive than British culture which is patently not true.

here is an Irish cultural event that just popped up there before I read your post. Inclusive indeed! https://twitter.com/r4fcmuk7k8ihukz/status/1652579238422237185?s=46&t=acUo01EJjcKHWFvSZWTu1A

looksee

I always do my washing on Mondays and my shopping on Fridays. I iron on Tuesdays and bake on Thursdays and Saturdays. This is the proper way to live life, its the way my mother did it, its organised, efficient and traditional, that's the way it was always done. Now the woman next door she just shops any time she feels like it, and I have even seen washing out on a Sunday. I have no idea when she does her ironing, but she is not a bit organised. I sometimes pop in to check does she follow the routine at all. I have even seen her husband putting out the washing, I'm mortified for her! Its not a proper way to carry on, no respect for tradition and customs, you'd think she did not care about being a good housewife, she certainly does not care about history.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120537905#Comment_120537905

As I said, I wouldn't align myself with any of the headbangers up North. Neither side seem to enjoy thier own culture as much as when they're having a pop at the other side. Maybe that just is part of your culture up there. None of my business anyway. They're you're people, not mine.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120538687#Comment_120538687

Well sure you just live in denial if you wish. First it was English culture. Then when I post a video from yesterday you claim it’s the Nordies as well that are the problem. No comment on the fact that (roi) Irelands biggest cultural music festival will be promoting bands that ensure sectarian killers are eulogised.

its always everybody but the oirish that are the problem.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120540367#Comment_120540367

Ah sure it's always the Orish that are the problem. The NI culture seems to involve a lot of winding up the other side. I don't associate myself with that. That's a Nordie problem, not mine.

I was over with 2 of the lads this evening who regularly go to their home team soccer games. One in national league 2 and the other in the championship. I asked if they consider going on the foot all as an expression of English culture. Both said no but asked when I meant. So I said about St George's day and how I saw an argument that English people have thier own ways of expressing their culture such as going to football, real ale festivals, cricket and fish and chips. Neither agreed and one said he thought I was a weak argument.

It's only a sample set of 2 so doesn't prove anything. But it's not evidence in favour of your argument. I was careful how I phrased the question so it wasn't biased. That's it. I've another few mates who regularly go to their home team games. I'll ask them when o see them next.

Badly Drunk Boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120540367#Comment_120540367

What was the union flag doing in a field, away in the middle of nowhere, anyway? Could it have been put there to provoke a reaction along a road that would be used by those GAA fans on a matchday? (Both actions seem immature.)

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120541192#Comment_120541192

Well done. This is a more pleasant debate now.

I wonder what those guys think culture is?

how would you define culture?

here’s a definition I found which I would feel is close to the mark Useem, J., & Useem, R. (1963). Human Organizations, 22(3). 

"Culture has been defined in a number of ways, but most simply, as the learned and shared behavior of a community of interacting human beings" (p. 169).

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120541262#Comment_120541262

I have no idea. But I wouldn’t place equal blame on a guy who put his national flag in the middle of his field. That GAA crowd most be pretty easily wound up. I imagine it will be back bigger, only with grease on the pole. If that was his intention then he must be very pleased to know it worked and will work going forward. That’s how it works on this island of craic

Peregrinus

When we talk about English culture (or unionist culture, or working-class culture, or whatever) we usually mean the learned and shared behaviour of the community in question which is not shared with other communities. So, for example, eating three meals a day is cultural behaviour - not all communities do this - but we wouldn't describe it as English culture or unionist culture, because it doesn't distinguish English people or unionist people from adjacent communities, who also eat three meals a day. Playing football is not a point of distinction between unionist and nationalist/British and Irish communities in NI, but playing particular football codes to some extent is, or not playing on Sunday.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120541928#Comment_120541928

I think, however the 2 lads I asked yesterday define it, going to the football doesn't meet it. Nor does real ale festivals, fish and chips or cricket.

How does that affect your argument that doing those things is a practice of English culture?

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120541935#Comment_120541935

That's how it works in your part of the island. If that's your experience Orish culture, then it's not surprising that you're so hostile towards it.

I'm unimpressed by both sides in NI. That's why I wouldn't associate myself with either side. They really seem to see winding up the other side as part of their culture. Unpleasant practice.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120542030#Comment_120542030

The dominant culture in any society often doesn't recognise what is culturally distinctive about itself, because it doesn't realise that it is distinctive — partly because minority cultures often have low visibility to members of the dominant culture, and partly because minority cultures often adopt aspects of the majority culture anyway. English pub culture is quite distinctive but most English people probably don't think very much about it being "English"; they just think it's "normal". English food culture is also quite distinctive - not just fish and chips but, e.g., Indian food as sold and eaten in England is very different from anything you will find in India.

You get this less in NI because, while there are marked cultural distinctions between the two communities, members of both communities are aware of and attuned to them.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120541970#Comment_120541970

These things can change over time too. I presume rugby was just for one side in Ireland. That's changed in ROI but persisted in NI for a lot longer. That's changing too, even in NI. Ulster was captained by a bloke named Alan O'Connor last week. He's from Dublin though so maybe I'm exaggerating their capacity for change up theire.

Peregrinus

Outside Ulster, rugby has for a long time (and perhaps always?) been much more a class marker than a religion marker. Eamon de Valera was a rugby player at Blackrock College and at Rockwell, and later on he played for Munster. Later in life he was a keen rugby fan. This wasn't commented on much precisely because it wasn't considered remarkable for a Catholic and a nationalist to play rugby. But — except in Limerick — it would have been unusual for someone from a more working-class backgrounds to play rugby. (And, to be honest, it still is.)

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120542067#Comment_120542067

Well this is kinda my point. The Engliah aren't aware of practicing their culture. They ignore easy cultural practices like St George's day. They do eat British style Indian food and enjoy their pub culture, but they don't consciously pra time it or take pride in it.

I think we do know we're practicing out culture when we hear trad music in the pub, go to the Patrick's day parade, make St Brigid's Cross or see them hanging in someone's house or learn the folklore and tell it to the next generation.

I think if you asked a working-middle class English person what English culture is, they'd probably mention things like royalty, nobility and colonisation. The lads I spoke with yesterday both said there's so much to be ashamed of in British history that they can't take pride in their culture.

I asked if they think their direct ancestors were likely involved in royalty or nobility or decision making at the East India Company or slavery. Obviously they didn't think so. So they actually feel shame for things their ancestors didn't control, but don't take any pride in the more mundane parts of English culture that actually apply to them and their ancestors.

I asked them about if they were interested in how their direct ancestors lived and the quirks of their rituals and traditions. They hadn't really thought about it before so they didn't have much of an answer. Isn't that the point I'm getting at. Someone has convinced them their history is all about nobility and not about the normal working person in England.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120542053#Comment_120542053

Can I say respectfully that you need to self-examine a little bit as to why you keep pretending (or maybe even believing) that this is only a problem north of the border. You are ignoring the point I made that the ‘largest festival in Ireland’ will guaranteed have anti/British songs and Ira chanting - that’s not normal behaviour. I could point to endless events south of the border where the overt hatred of the unionist community is expressed proudly. You really have only one community left in large numbers so you don’t get the tit-for-tat that we get up north.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120541970#Comment_120541970

I would agree to some extent with your description but to say going to football and eating fish & chips is not cultural, is where I disagree.

you only need to listen to people still refer back to a World Cup 60 years ago to see what football means in the Uk. The premier league is the pinnacle of football in the world and most watched by some distance. Football is also steeped in history in Uk - first teams, first leagues, etc, etc.

I completely disagree that just because others enjoy it and copy it means it no longer culture.

(I would also say that there are pockets of England have a rugby culture)

I would say coffee shops are definitely part of Parisian culture, but my wee village has half a dozen coffee shops. And I wouldn’t describe my community as having a coffee shop culture - mind you I wouldn’t disagree strongly if you said it was an emerging culture.

Where do you stop. If Irish dancing spreads across the world then does Ireland not have an Irish dancing culture?

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120542077#Comment_120542077

I just don’t get your need to paint roi as superior to ni in nearly every post. Just examine the make up of your sports teams before taking another dig at the Nordies again

looksee

Some UK culture in no particular order

Parish / local garden fetes - thousands of them all across the country

Music in the park - ditto

Sports including football, rugby, cricket, motor racing, pigeon racing, darts, green bowling

Historical events associated with local castles etc

Well dressing (ie dressing of wells, mostly in Derbyshire)

Green man festivals

Public rights of way/footpaths everywhere in rural England

Guy Fawkes/bonfire night

Diwali celebrations (specifically in Leicester, but in numerous towns)

Changing of the Guard and all other events associated with royalty

Edinburgh Tattoo

Highgate carnival

The Proms and other -

Events in Hyde Park and Albert Hall

Hay Festival/book fairs

Welsh Male Voice choirs

Morris dancing

Mayday festivals

Sheepdog trials

Pubs

Oxford and Cambridge Boat Race

Picnics in parks

Veteran car rallies

Dog shows

Street parties

Pantomime

Choir festivals

Cheese rolling competitions

Bog snorkling

Chelsea Flower Show

Trooping the Colour

Harvest festivals everywhere

Cheltenham

Henley Regatta

Eisteddfods

Wimbledon

Remembrance day

Swan Upping

Glastonbury

London Marathon

Up Helly Aa

Hundreds of music festivals of all genres.

Plough Monday

Robin Hood legend

Stonehenge and similar solstice events

Stir-up Sunday

Mumming

Pancake racing

Shrovetide football

Spalding flower festival

Boxing Day events

Beating the bounds

Plus all the many, many local events that my relatives in the UK seem to find on a regular basis to take the kids to.

And this is only the obvious ones, there are thousands of very local traditions going back centuries.

But no, the UK doesn't have much by way of tradition.

indioblack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120542132#Comment_120542132

"Someone has convinced them their history is all about nobility and not about the normal working person in England."

Well they must be a bit dim then. It takes a very brief period of thought to come to the logical realisation that history is everything in the past.

The prominent people in history, the ones with power and status, are more likely to have their lives and actions recorded than the average Joe. That's the same everywhere, in all history. Common sense, and sanity, will tell you that it isn't all of history - only most of recorded history.

Once again, the history of the "common man" is there for the seeking - often as generalisations and assumptions, which would be understandable.

If the two people you mentioned feel ashamed about their history, then they must have some inkling of the darker side of their history - which contradicts the notion that they are ignorant of their history. Also, I would be cautious about taking onboard shame for actions I had no part in. An Irish relative once tried that one on me and I didn't accept that I had to automatically experience such a corrosive emotion because someone claimed that I should.

silliussoddius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120542575#Comment_120542575

When you put it like that.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120542575#Comment_120542575

Great list. And as you say, only some.

Why is this about loyalism?

Modern England has lots of brilliant stuff going for it - amazing music (the late '70s/early '80s in England was one of the most exciting times ever for music, not to mention the '60s), television, literature, comedy, theatre. It's extremely diverse (including millions of Irish), brilliant sense of humour comes out of there.

Loyalism though - as a "fenian" I'm hardly a fan. I know plenty of absolutely lovely folk from moderate unionist backgrounds though.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120542411#Comment_120542411

I didn't even bring up the nordies joyment of winding each other up. You shoehorned that into a thread about St George's day. Remember?

That's your culture up there, not mine. If it makes you all happy, then best of luck to you. I've no interest in taking part in it.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120544408#Comment_120544408

You’re the one trying to wind your neighbours up now. I’ll not chase it anymore. When your society is more mature then maybe there will be more recognition of your own flaws. Until then, enjoy your rosy spectacles

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120542358#Comment_120542358

And it seems like there's a very healthy tit for tat up there. You seem to enjoy it and talking about it, best of luck to you.

Have you ever asked many ROI protestants how they feel? I'd imagine they're fine with the setup down here. I've never met someone in ROI who advocates for ROI rejoining the UK. So I don't know about that.

I'm probably a ROI unionist regarding NI. I don't want anything to do with. It's politics is complete amateur hour. Basic, tabloid stuff. I would never vote for a united Ireland. You have your own culture up there and I'd want little to do with it.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120542398#Comment_120542398

Oh, sure. Soccer is definitely culturally significant in England. So is fish and chips.

English people may not think of it that way, though, since soccer is not unique to England — it's one of the most popular participant and spectator sports in the world and it's culturally significant in many countries. Think of the place it has in Italian life, for instance. When people are invited to think about English culture they may think that means things which are uniquely English, or at least which characterise English society in a way that they do not characterise other societies.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120542778#Comment_120542778

You and I know that everything is history. But that's an Irish perspective. Gealic Irish weren't in charge of most of the decision making in Ireland for generations. We knew we were colonised. They don't. We tell the history of the common people affected by the famine. They don't see that as the history of the common people of the British empire. Instead they see it as a shameful part of their history, even though their direct ancestors were more likely to be victims of the British empire than any kind of decision makers.

My mates might be gobshytes. But I'm telling you I asked if they consider going to the football a practice of their english culture. They said no. They also said they don't consider cricket, ale festivals or fish and chips to be a practice of English culture.

Maybe a takes a brief though about their history to know that the history of the common person is their history, but they haven't taken that second to find that history.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120544427#Comment_120544427

I will enjoy my rosy spectacles. You enjoy winding up, and being would up by, the other side. As long as it makes you all happy up there.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120544902#Comment_120544902

I think you are getting confused between history and culture. History is in the past. Culture is in the present.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120546683#Comment_120546683

Sure. We could bicker back and forth for a hundred years and get nowhere. But that's your culture, not mine. In my culture its OK to have different ideas and move on.

indioblack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120544902#Comment_120544902

In fairness I didn't call your friends gobshytes. If I understand you, did you say that they don't know about colonisation in Ireland, or have I got that wrong? The famine in the 1840's is bound to be retained in the folk memory of later generations. The focus on the prominent people, those with power, status and influence is understandable also. You can find it on Boards. With regard to the famine it's known and named people - Peel, Russell, Trevelyan, Victoria. Over the centuries, in both countries, little was known of the lives of most people - usually generalisations and assumptions.

As for the empire, it wasn't unique in it's primary purpose - the aquisition of resources. I described it to an Irish relative as, "Controlling the land, controlling who lives on the land". British imperialism is a key factor in Irish people's thinking - understandably so. Worth considering also that the umbrella term "imperialism" was the default political position for most of recorded history.

I wonder at the need to be conciously aware of practicing ones culture. Maybe it's the different historical experiences of Ireland and England - in the sense that for Ireland it's a requirement to demonstrate identity.

Finally, I'm in agreement with you that your friends should seek to know more about the lives of everyday people in the past. There won't be as much about as the wives of Henry the Eighth, but it is there for the seeking.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120548032#Comment_120548032

They know colonisation happened and they know it's shameful. Likewise in India. But they haven't looked into the details.

I spoke with 2 others on Friday over a pint and they told me their history textbooks showed the British going around civilising the natives in loincloth. They had tests which included questions like "list 5 ways the British empire helped the people the colonised". Any negative consequences weren't marked. These people are both in thier early 30s.

We assume the empire was a largely bad idea. They're just finding out it was bad in spite of ther education. They've done some legwork and it led to shame and embarrassment. It's not an incentive to dig deeper. They probably know the British involvement in the famine was shameful. So why look into it? They have been taught that empire is their history.

The history the common man in England isn't taught. I think they'd be happier if they did teach the history of the common people. But I think if they did teach that history, they'd find out that the British establishment has been against the common man in England as much as they were against the common man in Ireland or India or the African colonies.

Whatever the reason, they don't teach the history of the normal people because it doesn't suit them. As recently as 15 years ago they were teaching the empire in positive terms. They're a million miles away from teaching the actual history of the empire, let alone the history of the common English people throughout history.

indioblack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120548689#Comment_120548689

I don't recall learning much about the empire when I was at school, [which was a long time before your friends]. I did learn to read, however. I could read a book. Did your friends finish their schooling so indoctrinated by the "establishment" that they had no desire to learn more? Had they no curiosity? I left school at 15 and worked on a building site. I could still read, still learn. I repeat yet again, there is, and was, a mass of information on this subject.

Presumably my teachers in England, four of whom were Irish, were also part of this conspiracy to keep us in the dark about the past. If so, they failed. Perhaps the establishment should have banned unsuitable books - as happened in Ireland.

You can read a range of books about the empire - negative, some leaning towards a more positive view and some simply objective. You can learn to discriminate. Not on the basis of bias, but logically. I don't need someone to tell me that a bad thing is a bad thing. I can work that out for myself.

I'd like to read a history of the British empire which convinces me that it was wholly benevolent from it's beginning to it's dissolution. There isn't such a book that could convince me of this since it would conflict with the primary purpose of empires - all empires, in all their forms.

The focus is on the British empire. That's understood. Go look up empires - there were a lot of them. Doesn't make them any more palatable - though it may give an insight into one aspect of human behaviour.

looksee

Have to agree with IndioBlack, I don't recall any such teaching (rescuing natives in loincloths) either. My, admittedly by now, vague, memories of school history lessons seem to involve mostly the Romans, ironically. I seem to remember the Boer War too, not with any emphasis on the local people - which would have been much more interesting - but dry political stuff and battles.

As I have mentioned before, in the 1960s I was one of a very large number of people, paid for by the British government, who were sent to Africa to assist in moving the country from having a european dominated civil service, including teachers, hospital staff, office workers etc, to a local workforce. I suppose there must have been some degree of cynicism and patronisation, especially from the remnants of the existing europeans who were being displaced, human nature being what it is, but it was not something I was particularly aware of.

What I do recall is the vast numbers of Irish priests and religious orders doing their own bit of 'empire building' and continuing to impose European mores on Africa.

I agree that, growing up, I had an awareness of exceptionalism and Britain's leading role in the world, this didn't get much chance to mature in me as I left in the late 60's. It was there though, in exactly the same way that people - some people - any country will dwell on its perceived successes and find reasons for patriotism. Provided it does not turn into jingoism there is nothing wrong with a bit of pride and sentimentality in one's country, Ireland certainly has it. It was not down to any specific teaching though, it derived more from culture and attitudes.

What is less usual is for a part of the population of a country to feel so insecure about their country that they have to gossip and invent nonsense to try and feel 'better' than their neighbour. It is very easy to criticise the UK at the moment, given the shambles they have made of their economy, but to root around trying to prove something that is based only on the uninformed ignorance of the gossips is just ridiculous.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120552648#Comment_120552648

You didn't learn much about the empire in school? Seems like a pretty big issue in British modern history for them to not to teach much about it, wouldn't you agree?What do you remember about how they covered it in school?

My friends can read. They read about lots of things but history isn't amongst them. They know they were sold a pup. They learned about the empire in school as I outlined above, and the anything they found out after that was probably pretty unpleasant reading. But whatever the reason, they haven't looked too deeply into it. They just know the empire is a pretty shameful thing, but they still associate it with their national identity. Not agreat basis for national pride.

Unless you went to a hedge school, i presume the teaxhers taught the curriculum. Unless your teachers set the curriculum or influence the national culture, then I don't suppose they were in on any conspiracy. They probably just taught what was in the book. And you report that there was little about the empire in the school books.

But I don't want to get too bogged down in how the empire was taught in schools in England. I only have the word of those 2 I spoke to last week. I don't have first hand experience.

I was using it as an explanation for why the English don't consciously practice their culture like St George's day. Among my friends group, they'll always send a message on St Partick day, Burns night, Ramadan and Eid for the Muslim lass in the group. I tried wishing a happy George's day a few years and got absolutely no hop out of them. I don't think they knew it was st George's day, and they certainly hadn't thought about it.

indioblack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120553261#Comment_120553261

I can't say I recall much about the empire from my school days - it really was a long time ago. What is interesting is how the empire just seemed to go away in people's perception in the period of the retreat from empire. It just seemed to quietly dissolve, almost as if people had accepted the inevitability of it's ending. That's how I remember those years anyway.

Shame features a lot for you in your posts. If that's it, if it's just bad people doing bad stuff - then forget studying the history. Why bother, if you already know the answer? If people want to wear the mantle of shame for the actions of others, that's their choice. If British politicians express their shame for the dark side of the countries imperial past, I see that as a positive step towards finalising some of the issues regarding Britain's imperial past.

I doubt, though, that it will silence those who use this issue to condemn Britain. Probably no action will satisfy them.

I mentioned an Irish relative in an earlier post who asked me if I felt shame. I thought it illogical to have shame foisted on me simply because of my geographical location. Equally I didn't recognise that my relative had a morally superior position to myself based on events in the past. To use the lives, and deaths, of people during Britain's imperial period to claim a personal higher moral position seems distasteful to me.

The British Empire covers a vast canvas in time and geography. Studying it invoves unpleasant reading at times, yet makes an engrossing read.

As for old St. George - I guess it's not a big deal. People in England are more likely to know the 17th of March than the 23rd of April. Maybe it's an indication of some deficiency regarding culture. Probably it's just not a big deal.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120555048#Comment_120555048

Do you think it's unusual that they didn't teach much about the empire, what it was and how it worked? Given its a pretty significant part of British and world history?

I mention shame a bit, but I'm quoting my friends when I asked about their sense of Englishness. I'm not saying how they should feel about it. I don't apologise to anyone for the things that happened on ireland. St Partick is an apt example. He didn't come to Ireland by his own free will. He was enslaved by Irish people. I know history is interesting and I don't take responsibility for anything except my own behaviour.

The issue is that the empire was seen as a major point of national pride. The sun never sets on the empire, bringing civilisation to the natives and so on. Now morality has changed rapidly in the last few decades and the behaviour of the empire is not really something be proud of anymore. Instead of teaching the history for the sake of history, they don't teach it because its gone from a cornerstone of national pride to something quite different.

They could teach it and learn about it and talk about it as a significant part of the nation's history. But it wouldn't be the point of national pride it once was.

Maybe things like national pride and practicing culture aren't a big deal. I'd disagree. I think not practicing culture and not passing it on to the next generations is detrimental to the society. One small example I mentioned earlier was the guy who was cross that nobody celebrated St George's day and resented that they celebrate other people's cultures but not his own. St Partick day is an obvious example but Eid was around the same time as St George's day this year. I wouldn't be surprised if he had that in mind.

If you're in touch with your culture then you have nothing to fear from other people practicing their culture. I suspect a strong overlap between the people who don't practice their english culture or pass it to their children and those who worry about English culture being eraced by foreigners and resent seeing other cultures in England thrive.

looksee

The issue is that the empire was seen as a major point of national pride. The sun never sets on the empire, bringing civilisation to the natives and so on. 

I don't think the Empire was something that preoccupied the vast majority of ordinary people, they still had work to do and ends to make meet. I have no recollection of the word Empire ever being used at school or at home, its a very long time ago but I don't recall it ever being something I was aware of.

indioblack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120555850#Comment_120555850

I can't tell you how much the history of empire has been taught in the decades since I was at school - only that I have little recollection of it at my school. I think I'd be on safer ground if I suggested that the message of empire back then was more positive and probably focussed less on the dark aspects of it. Britain seemed more confident then, perhaps less introspective than now, and this was reflected in the perception of empire.

As an aside, I believe the description, "the empire on which the sun never sets", was first applied to the Spanish empire - the first global empire.

Bringing British values and elements of it's civilisation was part of how the empire was perceived - usually by those involved in it. "The mission of our race" was a phrase used. One example that comes to mind were Egyptians educated by the British to assist in the administration of Egypt, The Civil Service probably. Raising an educated class, some of whom could be part of the nations independance movement - [they were aware of aspirations for independance elswhere - they could read and knew about Easter Week for example].

There was, as you say, national pride - and more of it the further back you go. It's worth adding that there were British observers of Britain's overseas enterprise who were critical of imperial expansion and even of empire itself. They knew the history of all empires, that they grew and declined or morphed into other structures. Empires were dynamic entities - they changed, even while they gave the impression of fixed longevity.

So what changed for the British empire? Pretty much everything in it's time. Nations, military alliances, politics, trade. British society changed. Values changed. Brtitain's status in the world pecking order changed. The financial benefits of empire lessened. Empire became less popular, less acceptable. Finally some countries, [think of Ireland], just didn't want any part of it at all.

That's my view of it. Hopefully reasonably accurate, [I'm not a historian]. It was a broad canvas, as I've said. Dare I say it was like the curate's egg - good and bad in parts? That's probably not acceptable to say today.

As for St. George and practicing ones culture - I'm not sure where to go with that. Some things are easily recognised as part of a particular nation's culture. Others are more diverse, more individual. I'm not sure how conciously practicing an element of one's culture works. Perhaps the English should be encouraged to form comittees to debate the necessity of practicing a communal activity.

If there's one think the English like, it's forming comittees!

Baasterd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120542575#Comment_120542575

Ah put away the trowel will yah.

The term culture is ambiguous a lot of what you list are events, they are not culturally significant in anyway. Take something like Cheltenham (the fact you refer to it as simply Cheltenham gives the game away) the March meeting is very much an Irish affair in terms of tradition.

Of course the UK has a rich cultural heritage but vomiting every event that comes to your mind does not support that point, the op point was not that the UK has not culture of course it does but people are not aware of it or they don't celebrate it, I think its reasonably valid.

looksee

'Vomiting'? Touched a nerve somewhere?

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120556820#Comment_120556820

OK. We'll like ibsaid, I'm just reporting how my friends in their early 30s told me they were taught about the empire in school. Ine in Hull, one in Bradford. That's all i I know about the school teaching. I also know them well and they don't talk at all about the history of the empire except to say they know it's shameful. There's nowhere for the conversion to go after that because I don't have much to add and they're not interested in talking about it anyway. So if it comes up, it can't really go anywhere.

I think you get the point about national pride. It used to be a point of national pride, then as our understanding of morality changed, it turned out national pride was based on a foundation of sand. Instead of pivoting to other points of connection to history and culture like the lives and traditions of their ancestors, they just didn't replace it.

We could all 'bring our values' to other countries. I think the English would understand what's wrong with that if they reflect on the efforts of others to bring their values to the world in the early 1800s and 1940s. Turns out they weren't really fans of people bringing culture to the UK in the way they wanted to bring UK culture to other countries.

The curate's egg argument is as valid for thr British empire as it is for any other empire. Is it valid for the European fascist of the 1930s-40s? Maybe. I hear the trains ran really well and they did some naughty things too.

I believe you that you don't understand consciously practicing culture. I've almost never seen consciously practice of English culture over here. They do English things like going to football and eat fish and chips occasionally, but they don't consciously practice uncontroversial culture. That's a pity, but don't think it's an accident. If they taught the culture of the common people in England for the last 1000 years, they'd see that the establishment was as opposed to the English pesants as they were to the Irish pesants or anywhere else in the empire.

In other words, they went all in on the empire as a point of national pride. And when the empire stopped providing national pride, the normal people are left high and dry.