Happy St. George's Day.

indioblack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120560385#Comment_120560385

OK. A useful exchange of viewpoints. It would be boring if we agreed about everything. Britain's imperial involvement in the world covers a broad sweep of the last few centuries. It encompasses changing and even conflicting policies - and requires more than a simplistic black and white evaluation.

indioblack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120560385#Comment_120560385

Just read your edited post.

Empire was the way the world was then, [and still is in some places]. Nations proclaimed their positive values - and betrayed them at the same time. My one remaining aunt in Cork asked me, "Well, was Cromwell good or bad?" Cromwell could've walked on water - it wouldn't make any difference. He was just bad news for Ireland. I could have pointed out to my aunt that most people aren't good or bad, but a mixture of both. I doubt that would have worked in Cromwell's favour in her eyes.

Imperialism, colonialism, the supplanting of one culture with another, mass unforced migration - that's virtually everyone's history everywhere. Singling out Britain and it's imperial past as if it was an aberration in human behaviour simply won't stand up. Why did they do more of it than some other nations? Because they were able to do so. You said we could all bring our values to other countries - presumably you meant in an imperialistic way. Actually, no that wasn't possible for practical reasons that should be obvious. So if this is meant to be an attempt at claiming a higher moral attitude it doesn't work. When the options aren't there, there's no choice that can be made.

Is the curate's egg description valid for Europe in the 1940s? If you take the exteme example, Hitler's Germany, then no. The Third Reich took Europe to war. Hitler's ideaology pemitted only total victory or self destruction. There was no room for positive change. Britain's empire could change, and did - even if it had to be pushed to do so. Britain's system was opposed in principle - but it was preferable to a Europe controlled by the Nazis.

Is football culture? Considering it's appeal in the UK I'd say yes. And around the world as well. And fish and chips? If you like. There must be a lot of activities and interests that can come under the umbrella of culture - and some of them would be specific to England. I'd say most of them wouldn't need to be categorised or ring-fenced. People are primarily individuals. They can choose to follow their chosen pursuits singly or in an assembly.

Back in the era of the peasants, I doubt if there was any establishment, imperial or not, that gave much consideration to the ordinary populations. Why single out Britain?

So the establishment refused to teach the English common man about their culture, [and presumably their history as well], for a thousand years? Well, now that this deficiency has been diagnosed, it's encouraging to know that there is more knowledge and history available now than there has ever been.

El_Duderino 09

Of course, it's a pity they do t death the rich history of thr empire. Its history so its far more interesting than black and white. But they don't really talk about it because they're afraid of what they might find. I don't think we need to be proud of everything in the past. But knowing it and connecting with it and learning from the good and bad is where the connection and national identity comes from.

I mentioned earlier in the thread that I asked 2 mates last week if they consider going to the football an expression of culture. They both said no. So football certainly is English culture and it's a hugely popular sport worldwide. It could be a poi t of national pride. But it isn't.

In 30s Germany the trains ran on time, or so I'm told. Italy drained the swamps in the south. Pretty positive, forward thinking use of land for the Italians. They did some bad things too which we all know about. But it seems that the nazis are black and white, but the British empire is much more nuanced and shades of gray. I think history is far more interested than black and white.

I single out Britain because it doesn't celebrate the customs and traditions of rhe common people. Whatever the reason, they don't do it. The football is an open goal for consciously practicing culture and a bit of national pride, but they ignore it. I know Irish people know they're practicing the culture when they hear the traditional music in the pub, or go to a hurling match or make a St Brigid's Cross or celebrate st Partick day. We keep the famine history alive and tell the story of the common people, not just the aristocracy. I was at a post famine workhouse museum the last time I was home.

I think that stuff maters.

indioblack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120561847#Comment_120561847

Regarding your first point, why should they be afraid of what they might find out? That implies that they may have an inkling of what they would find out. And who are we talking about specifically? Is thus a re-run of the shame business?

Football at the national level is certainly bound up with national pride. England is certain to win the world cup and when it doesn't is certain to win it the next time!

Back to culture. How does Britain not celebrate the customs and traditions of the common people specifically?

Football again. Football fans support their teams and, when applicable, the national team. That comes under the umbrella term of culture, a shared activity. What difference does it make if they are aware of it or not? It meets the requirement.

One of the main identifiers of Irish identity is the language. The majority of Irish people most certainly do not practice the first language of the state.

They seem satisfied that it's still there as a national symbol - despite the efforts of governments over generations.

looksee

Just as an aside, the curate's egg analogy does not suggest that something is both good and bad in parts. If an egg is bad, it is all bad, it can't have good bits. The curate is being over polite in claiming there were good bits.

indioblack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120565338#Comment_120565338

He was probably Church of England.

Tom Mann Centuria

To any fellow English here, or those who just like Turkish/Greek Dragon slayers, happy St. George's Day.

Guildenstern

Labour party still tearing itself up over it. The Guardian still flying the flag for minorities.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/apr/21/keir-starmer-asks-labour-candidates-to-fly-the-flag-on-st-georges-day

Jack Daw

A country seemingly having to apologise for celebrating their national day is ridiculous, why shouldn't people in England celebrate St Georges day and fly the St Georges cross.It's no different than any other national holiday around the world yet it seems like the English have to apologise for and not celebrate their national day.

Randycove

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122051947#Comment_122051947

you have to wonder if anyone ever actually asks ethnic minorities if they feel alienated by a national flag, or if it is just a bunch of middle class, middle aged white people being offended on their behalf.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122053528#Comment_122053528

Who, exactly, is asking the English to apologise for flying the St. George's Cross flag? I have seen no calls for such an apology but, of course, I may have missed them.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122053528#Comment_122053528

The only thing ridiculous is guff like this. Who's making the English apologise? Can we get a name please?

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122053537#Comment_122053537

The middle class ones I know are embarrassed by the people who go put of their way to celebrate St George's day. There's a big St George's day celebration led by Stephen Yaxley Lennon (Tommy Robinson) today in Whitehall. It's more focused on immigrants than anything English.

My mates have no interest in taking part in St George's day celebrations and less interest in wrestling the day back from the people who have commandeered it as an anti-immigrant or anti Muslim day, to celebrate in a positive way instead. They just ignore it. Doubt they'd know it was George's day unless it came up in media.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122053604#Comment_122053604

Definitely. The Union Flag has become much more trendy in the past 10-20 years whereas the St. George's Cross has connotations of football hooliganism, racism, and drunkenness. It's sad but that's where we are.

Fun fact:

The St. George's flag, a red cross on a white field, was adopted by England and the City of London in 1190 for their ships entering the Mediterranean to benefit from the protection of the Genoese fleet. The English Monarch paid an annual tribute to the Doge of Genoa for this privilege.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122053687#Comment_122053687

As if to demonstrate why normal people don't want to associate themselves with St George's day…

This is the Stephen Yaxley Lennon St George's day event I referred to above.

https://news.sky.com/story/violence-breaks-out-at-st-georges-day-event-in-central-london-13121301

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122053712#Comment_122053712

The three lions passant on a crimson background come from France.

But yeah, they're just fuelling the stereotype.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122053537#Comment_122053537

Any of the English from ethnic minorities I knew were apolitical just like most other people and never thought of the flag outside of when they were watching the soccer or rugby. I'm sure you could find some amateur political activists on Twitter but I doubt it reflects reality.

The only time I ever heard a negative reaction to the flag was head wrecking Plastic Paddies who thought I would be impressed.

As for George's Day I only knew two people in London who even noticed it existed. Me and a guy who had the licence to do public fireworks displays in his village. Trafalgar Square do a celebration but I looks like it's just to stop complaints about how they do Paddy's, Chinese new year etc.

Guy Fawkes always seemed to be the real non contrived national holiday to me.

Manic Moran

There is more to Saint George than just England. He’s the saint of Russia as well.

I’m a Knight of the Order of St George. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_George_Award ) (The only benefits is I get to wear a big medal on formal occasions). As the only saint traditionally depicted as fighting mounted on horseback* , he is the patron saint of tankers and cavalrymen, who should have had a drink or two in his honor. There are a couple hundred such persons in Ireland.

*Other saints are occasionally depicted on horseback, but George is the only one who almost always is.

tinytobe

I was on Trafalgar Square for St. George's around mid day. There was a band named The Kurfew which was very good. Later on all the Pearly Kings and Queens arrived. Also lot's of family atmosphere.

Sadly, I think that St. George's is often abused for some English right wing attitudes as well. Not certain, but it sometimes does have that flavour.

Hande hoche!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122060120#Comment_122060120

That's true. Often see Russian troops with George's ribbons.