Is the concept of an eternal hell for non-believers Not contrary to God’s merciful nature?

homer911 · 25-05-2022 2:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119086762#Comment_119086762

I would not disagree with you, sometimes I forget about the Catholic perspective

Reg'stoy · 28-05-2022 9:43am

What really amuses me, is the knots christians tie themselves up in, trying to explain who does and doesn't go to hell. I have read elsewhere, that we don't gain salvation by our deeds, so even though as an atheist, I may do charitable works, save lives, generally live a good life, this won't count for squat, in reaching heaven. Now, someone who has accepted jesus as their lord and master, may be the most selfish person, do nothing to help their fellow man, but because they have high fived and stated "you the man jesus", poof they wake up in heaven. They don't have to live the example of jesus, like an atheist may do, they only have to accept him.

Other christians, the ones slightly embarrassed by the theology above, accept that living a good life, would be enough for a god to give them a golden ticket. All the discussion, about who does or doesn't get in, means, that christians are really just throwing Pascal's dice, and wagering that they picked the NT god, rather than the OT god, and the people they love who don't believe, will hopefully be 'saved'.

The best statement re heaven, that I have read is; you couldn't possibly be happy for eternity, knowing a loved one is in hell, being tortured for eternity, you'd know this, because they were not in heaven. So god must, either make you forget your friends and family, or make you not care about them, either way, you are not the same person who died (god has either wiped your memory, or changed your personality), so what was the point in testing you for your time on earth, to see if you were worthy of saving.

Rigsby · 04-06-2022 2:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118977537#Comment_118977537

If he TRUELY loved us, as Christians claim he does, then even if we did reject him he would not punish us. Is he not supposed to be all forgiving ?

04-06-2022 3:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119157737#Comment_119157737

Depends… on whether God is feeling New or Old Testamenty. Managing creation is tough, even if you are omnipotent.

Furze99 · 04-06-2022 3:51pm

I've always understood the concept of eternal hell to be a societal construct in order to help keep people in line. To be 'good' citizens'.

Looked at like that, it's makes right sense.

Rigsby · 04-06-2022 8:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119157993#Comment_119157993

Did god not create people with a free will, i.e. the ability to think and choose for themselves ? If so, then why punish them for making their own choices? It seems he would have saved himself the hassle of keeping them in line if he had pre programmed them to be "good citizens". It seems cruel to create people with a free will, only to punish them for not doing what he wants.

Furze99 · 04-06-2022 8:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119158893#Comment_119158893

Because 'God' didn't invent the concept of hell or heaven. These are human concepts concerned with the practice of religion & managing society, not the belief in 'God'.

growleaves · 04-06-2022 9:20pm

Would you choose to go to heaven if you could go?

Because lots of Christians don't think 'non-believers' are barred from heaven. But if you don't even want to go to heaven you aren't likely to end up there. So the most important first step is wanting to go to heaven.

If you do have a chance to follow Jesus Christ after death, a lifetime of rejecting Jesus Christ isn't a great preparation for that.

When people talk about 'being bored' in heaven that's not a good sign. Some people are seemingly afraid that eternal life will be an unending, unbearable continuation of existence now. I don't think that's how it will be. We will be transformed from pain and sin and doing ongoing creative work (like painting the Sistine Chapel but on a cosmic scale). You'll have a resurrected body rather than be a disembodied spirit (see the Gospel of John).

Finally I would say if you don't like 'organised religion' then practice unorganised religion. Be an independent Christian, if that's what it takes. Follow Jesus Christ but instead of obeying a church be a 'church of one' then you won't have anyone to blame but yourself if it becomes another corrupt church. You'll be taking responsibility for your own spiritual direction.

You have a conscience, you have scriptures and guidance from the Holy Spirit. You have everything you need.

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26

growleaves · 04-06-2022 9:31pm

By the way I'm not saying that you shouldn't join a church. It may be better for you if you do, and you may prefer it. I'm just trying to kick away a stumbling block that a lot of people have.

Not wanting to carry around Irish Catholic-Protestant historical baggage or be led by bishops you don't trust or think much of shouldn't stop you from becoming a Christian. If you're fiercely independent stay that way become but be one-man Christian church as well.

Hotblack Desiato · 04-06-2022 11:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119125221#Comment_119125221

You could be literally Hitler and do the old deathbed shenanigans and all is forgiven. I don't want to spend eternity in a place where there's even the remotest possibility of the likes of him getting in, tyvm.

Hotblack Desiato · 04-06-2022 11:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119158893#Comment_119158893

It's like the Clash song, "Know Your Rights"

Number 3

You have the right to free

Speech as long as you're not

Dumb enough to actually try it.

That's what so-called "free will" under God feels like to a non-believer.

Hotblack Desiato · 04-06-2022 11:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119159065#Comment_119159065

Heaven and Hell are human constructs, but God is not?

Mod: Lets not go down that rabbit hole, the existence of God is not up for debate in this forum.

Rigsby · 05-06-2022 9:54am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118977668#Comment_118977668

Indeed. It could also be very distressing knowing that perhaps a friend or loved one did not make the grade and get to "heaven" and so is damned to the fires of hell for all eternity.

Akrasia · 05-06-2022 10:14am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119125221#Comment_119125221

Given that God allows hell which is essentially an infinite never ending torture, much worse than anything any human could ever do to any other human. Then this means that God doesn't oppose suffering, he only opposes suffering when he's not the one who directs it.

God being omnipotent means he also controls hell. (Or allows it to happen)

Oh. And 'sinners' do not choose hell even if they were told about it.

If I order a vindaloo knowing that it's spicy and after one taste, I know its much too spicy for me. I can choose to not eat the rest. Only a sadist would force me to eat the entire curry because that was my 'choice'

growleaves · 05-06-2022 12:27pm

I think classical theology is the reason Christians 'tie themselves up in knots'.

For instance the assumption of God's omnipotence comes mainly from Greek metaphysics used as an interpreting 'frame' for the books of the Bible.

Plato's "Timaeus" was the premier book for Christian scholars who lived during the middle ages. They created this incoherent mishmash of two supposedly 'compatible' belief systems (Greek philosophy and Christian religion).

In the Platonic dialogue I mentioned Timaeus (a pagan) concludes that 'virtue' leads to some kind of blissful afterlife.

I dislike Plato's clockwork reasoning about goodness and the afterlife. It seems to me in the wrong spirit because of how mechanical it is. And even now people think of God as an abstraction rather than as a god, and they're puzzling over how the pieces don't fit together.

There is a whole different theological understanding about the nature of God in LDS (Mormon) theology. Terryl Givens' "The God Who Weeps" is a good, short introduction for anyone who's interested.

In any case classical theological constructs about God's nature are not at the core of Christianity. Following Jesus Christ is, and resurrection from the dead is.

Furze99 · 05-06-2022 12:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119159740#Comment_119159740

Indeed, you can believe in 'God' and fully accept that it/he/she exists.

That doesn't mean though that you have to believe in any concepts like heaven or hell. One doesn't follow from the other.

05-06-2022 12:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119160897#Comment_119160897

Is there any Christian alive that doesn't believe in 'a heaven'?

Furze99 · 05-06-2022 2:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119160947#Comment_119160947

Doubtless many people hope for 'a heaven' but do they believe in it fully? Live a good Christian life and heaven will be your reward. Praise be to Allah and join your ancestors in Jannah. Concepts of heaven & hell are clearly social constructs.

So you can believe in a God and hope for heaven but then you have to wait to find out.

05-06-2022 3:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119161222#Comment_119161222

I can understand believing in God, and not necessarily believing in Heaven. But can't get my head around a believing Christian not believing in heaven (whether or not they think they'll get there).

Rigsby · 05-06-2022 4:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119161476#Comment_119161476

I agree. What would be the purpose of a Christian believing in God if it was not to reap the reward of heaven? I always assumed Christians believed that this life was a kind of test run to get as many "brownie points" as is necessary to enter heaven.

05-06-2022 5:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119161764#Comment_119161764

That and it's probably not compatible to be a believing Christian and not believing in heaven. It being pretty much the purpose of Christ.

Furze99 · 05-06-2022 8:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119162068#Comment_119162068

Why, what has heaven really got to do with living a good Christian life? Do you think that people will only do things if they are promised rewards? Given little stars to pin on their exercise books? That's a pretty sad view of humanity and Christianity or any religion.

You can believe in God and live a good Christian life and have no expectation of heaven or hell or anything else for that matter. To live such a life is a reward in itself.

05-06-2022 9:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119162861#Comment_119162861

You're mixing up a lot of things there. You can ape a Christian life, but you'd not be a Christian. I'm referring to actual, cross carrying, Christians. It's impossible to be an actual Christian and not believe in Heaven. Jesus sacrificed himself (they believe) so they could go to heaven. It's a basic tenant of being a Christian.

Rigsby · 06-06-2022 9:49am

Furze99 said:

"Do you think that people will only do things if they are promised rewards? Given little stars to pin on their exercise books?"

I think people will go to great lengths to gain rewards. Indulgences (granted they are seldom used these days) were extremely popular down through the ages.

weisses · 06-06-2022 10:07am

There are certain ways to keep a following. One of them is to scare the **** out of people to keep them on the straight and narrow. Introducing hell only makes sense in that regard

SuperBowserWorld · 06-06-2022 10:18am

I think you have to believe a religion fully or not believe it at all. If parts are illogical then, you can become a scholar of that religion and get a career out of it. You might get a well paid role in some university studying it.

Furze99 · 06-06-2022 10:32am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119163024#Comment_119163024

So what do you think of 'a la carte' Catholics? Are they Christians? And who gets to decide anyway.

You can believe in God, follow a particular religion as in Christianity. But also not just blindly accept all the doctrine and rhetoric that goes with it.

Rigsby · 06-06-2022 3:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119164363#Comment_119164363

If you don't want to blindly accept doctrine then why follow a religion at all ? Is it not possible to live a decent moral life without it ?

Furze99 · 06-06-2022 4:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119165619#Comment_119165619

For community. People of a feather flock together. Religion is a social glue that connects people in a community and gives a structure to life. That doesn't mean though that all people who ascribe to a particular religion have to adhere or believe in all the doctrine. Individuality.

Snugbugrug28 · 06-06-2022 4:05pm

I would say the concept of mercy is contrary to Gods terrifying nature

AndrewJRenko · 06-06-2022 6:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119165740#Comment_119165740

Isn't that kind of individuality completely against the fundamentals of all churches though, in theory at least?

People get community through all kinds of glues, sports, politics, locality. Religion doesn't have a monopoly on this.

Furze99 · 06-06-2022 7:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119166214#Comment_119166214

Yes maybe, but when were humans ever perfect or even logical?

Even within the officers, the priests of any religion there is clearly considerable variation in individuality as regards the dogma and doctrine, including as to what heaven, hell and purgatory are and so on.

06-06-2022 7:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119164363#Comment_119164363

The doctrine of the church, it's fairly simple and there's been numerous schisms of Christianity. Can you point out any that don't believe in heaven.

What do I think of 'a la carte' Catholics. I don't think about them at all.

06-06-2022 7:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119166447#Comment_119166447

"Yes maybe, but when were humans ever perfect or even logical?"

That would have been the garden of Eden, right up to the point where Eve heard the saying about, 'An apple a day keeps the doctor away.' She obviously didn't know what a doctor was, but did, allegedly say, 'Ah, what the hell.'

monara · 30-06-2022 10:50am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118977502#Comment_118977502

We cannot prove the existence of God but we can show that it is reasonable to believe in His existence; we cannot for that matter prove that we ourselves exist except within the context of time which for most of us will cease to exist within 80 to 100 years.

To have the existence of God depending on our beliefs requires a serious consideration of the power of human faith, and its power to merge the believer with the object of his belief.

01-07-2022 3:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119270555#Comment_119270555

'...but we can show that it is reasonable to believe in His existence' Would gladly discuss this, but I don't think it's allowed here so I'll just add... I don't see how that's the case.

smacl · 01-07-2022 4:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119276350#Comment_119276350

Mod note: Agreed, this is not really the forum for discussing the existence of God. The forum charter specifically forbids overt or subtle attack on the Christian faith which would make such discussion rather difficult. Better held on the A&A forum where no such rules apply.

Thinkingaboutit · 09-07-2022 11:31pm

There is the concept of Apocastasis, taught of St Gregory of Nyssa and others that all eventually will attain salvation, but for most there might be some degree of punishment, not as sadism, but to separate the good and bad in every soul. It is something of a minority opinion, but Bishop Robert Barron and other others have considered it.

https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01599a.htm

Graces7 · 30-08-2022 9:43am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119086762#Comment_119086762

No it is not, " a major personal sacrifice"... Not a sacrifice at all. And there has to be careful and skilled discernment. And it is a deep fulfilment like no other.. With no regrets.