Amber Heards Borderline personality disorder

Housefree

You have heard it a million times lads, never put your stick in crazy

Yurt2

I think there's a bit of misunderstanding about what BPD is. It's not an illness one can measure physiologically like an infection or virus. In the realm of psychology and psychiatry it can't even be set alongside schizophrenia or depressive illnesses.

What it really is (along with other personality disorder diagnoses) is a cluster of presentations of maladaptive and anti-social behaviours that are consistent over a long period of time, which in constellation, clinical psychologists and mental health professionals use to manage clients that are deeply troubled.

In many ways, it's a construct of the psychological profession. Should judgement come along with that diagnosis? Ideally not, but then again, an individual will only find themselves landed with that diagnosis after (almost inevitably) boll*cksing up relationships and their life severely, and possibly after coming into contact with law enforcement. So, judgement probably and unfortunately comes with the territory. Unlike a lot of cases of depression where negative symptoms such as avolition and self-isolation are more common where nobody but the sufferer is getting hurt. (Edit: this isn't strictly correct, but the active symptoms of BPD individuals are far more likely to see people in proximity harmed).

I agree that BPD has become shorthand for "crazy slashed my tyres lady" in certain circles, which is unhelpful. But then again, someone who has come into contact with a BPD individual, and it's usually intimate partners and family who bear the brunt, are unlikely to forget the experience.

It's a sticky wicket.

Howard Beale

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118986102#Comment_118986102

Good post.

The thing people who have had direct experiences with BPD women are vilified on this and direct personal experiences ignored as we aren't 'Dr's' or some other such nonsense. I keep making this point all anyone can reference is direct personal experiences. People posting nonsense about what they read or think or feel about it is non comparable to actual real world real life experiences as it's very obvious 99% of people posting on this have zero personal experience with a BPD women. They can read all about it all they want but it's just not the same as real life real world experience how can it be? like reading a book on driving yet never drove a car.

I'm telling you if the roles were reversed and women who are victims of BPD men posted I'm sure the reactions be very very very different.

Howard Beale

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118985326#Comment_118985326

The old thread had literally ONE person saying to keep away from BPD women. ONE. And it wasn't me was a man who had dated a BPD woman. Frankly I would take his real world real life experiences over what you read anyday of the week.

I keep saying nothing is comparable to real life experiences it just isn't. You can read 50 books on electronics but I'd still trust a electrician with real world experience over that person any day of the week.

You want to know me, come live with me. Simple erudite logic.

Wanderer78

an interesting take by grande

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXn56xRL1qc

Howard Beale

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118987071#Comment_118987071

Dr Grande is great. This lady has interesting take on it.

I understand Johnny Depp not leaving her due to her threats of suicide. Again I can only talk from experience but having dated a BPD woman who self harms and when it all goes South and they threaten suicide you tend to take it serious and not see the manipulation or boy who cried wolf behind it all. When it does go South with certain BPD ladies it's basically I hate you but don't ever leave me I will kill myself. A difficult situation for the strongest of people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyGpp1UqYUc

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118987300#Comment_118987300

...and the fact, suicide rates are extremely high with such disorders, amongst the highest, i.e. suicidal ideation must be taken seriously.....

Howard Beale

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118987330#Comment_118987330

Certain BPD women understand this and manipulate this. I do know from experience with a BPD lady her own sisters stopped taking her threats of suicide serious as they were so frequent and so random. Their own mental health would be destroyed entirely if they were worrying 24/7 of their sister killing herself. It can be real and it can be used to manipulate. It can be hard to know.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118987449#Comment_118987449

its a very difficult disorder to know what to do, and what not to do, but you can understand why close loved ones would do as such, theres an interesting documentary out there on bdp, whos name has completely escaped me, but one of the most poignant statements i took from it was, 'bpd is like a roller-coaster ride, and you can chose not to jump on at times'(or something like that), its extremely important for those involved with people with bpd to remember this at all times, and if suicide does indeed occur, its not your fault.....

JimmyVik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118984221#Comment_118984221

Is it now a mass illusion on this thread that I have given a diagnosis somewhere :)

Just because one person imagines it and keeps posting about me posting things i never even posted (obviously they couldnt post proof of the posts, because they dont exist.)

What you have here is bullying by the person accussing me over and over of posts that dont exist. You have to ask yourself why are they imagining posts from me.

joseywhales

The stigma is intense here. This whole thing would put me off ever seeking help from a clinical psychologist. Both the reaction of the layman here but also the fact that it can be used by a hostile witness to damage you. Given that treatment depends on total trust between patient and psychologist, has the expert witness here not ruined any hope of amber heard, a woman she believes is mentally ill, from accepting treatment for her illness? Is it ethical for a clinical psychologist to even be an expert witness? Would it not be sufficient to just try a case based on the facts rather than stigmatize an illness and scare us all away from trusting in clinical psychologists?

It doesn't do much for the profession in my opinion.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118987578#Comment_118987578

yea its a messy situation, its a deeply personal problem, thats being played out in public, by using fairly nasty methods, you d have to wonder, will there be any winners in this at all! messy messy stuff!

thefallingman

I'd say Amber Heard will be the winner because she'll probably get off scot free

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118987618#Comment_118987618

impossible to say, but she clearly needs help, as does depp, but will either do so......

maik3n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118987578#Comment_118987578

I was surprised that the Dr appeared as an expert witness for Depp but apparently Heard and her lawyers agreed to it.

I was thinking that perhaps Heard is playing the long game and has some way to combat the testimony but I'm starting to have my doubts.

thefallingman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118987641#Comment_118987641

help yes maybe although i'd want a second opinion to back up the diagnosis, but what about the domestic abuse. This could set a dangerous precedent if she walks scot free. Just seems very convenient don't you think.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118987667#Comment_118987667

ah theres plenty of information out there on such disorders, she clearly shows signs of a cluster b, or b's, bpd and/or hpd, id say its a fairly solid diagnosis tbh.

you ll actually find under most criminal behaviors lies complex disorders, including cluster b's, we do have known treatments for some of these, but not all, the reality is, most people in society have not yet accepted these facts!

Howard Beale

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118987578#Comment_118987578

Can't see how a psychologist's professional diagnosis is a 'hostile witness'.

Of course she was stating the obvious, I knew from Amber's behavior long before the Dr testified that Amber was borderline. For such a complex mental illness the behaviours and patterns can be very similar between women who have it.

thefallingman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118987688#Comment_118987688

does it give people carte blanche to do anything though, it's not something i have ever heard of used as a defence, but then most people don't have access to her money. Just seems very convenient to me.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118987710#Comment_118987710

what we all should be learning from this is the fact, those with these type of disorders urgently need the appropriate help, to try prevent such outcomes, again, we have very successful methods of therapy for such, dbt etc. again, its actually reasonably well researched what disorders are common amongst prison population, i.e. we effectively know what causes some criminal behaviors yet, we virtually do nothing!

thefallingman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118987723#Comment_118987723

yes for sure i agree 100 % and it shouldn't cost an arm and a leg like it does in this country, it's so much easier to go on antidepressants for 30 quid a month instead for most of us than to see a counsellor or shrink who'll bankrupt you in no time

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118987578#Comment_118987578

As per my above post: BPD exhibiting individuals don't typically breeze into a clinical psychologist's office of a day, and say "can you take a look at me doc?"

It is usually at the tail end of an interpersonal, legal or cirminal sh*tshow where the BPD person is dragged kicking and screaming towards psychological intervention. Stigma is an unfortunate by-product of their behaviour.

Understanding is necessary, but only to a point. A diagnosis of BPD isn't a free pass for abusive or criminal behaviour. It's the first step in the road towards personal, and interpersonal accountability, and not a dodge for accountability.

Howard Beale

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118987618#Comment_118987618

It's likely.

To the people on this being glib saying don't 'stick your wick in crazy' etc well it's not like Borderline women tell you up front about their diagnosis they can be very very coy and at first you can get the love bombing and 'idealization' stage and the hyper sexual behaviour. A BPD woman at first can be incredibly passionate wanting sex or giving oral several times a day in fact demanding it and pouting if they don't; so it's understandable men get involved with them in relationships as that intensity and passionate is intoxicating.

I mean Elon Musk for God's sake dated borderline Amber Heard so if he can fall for their charms when he could have literally any woman on Earth surely working class Joe Soaps like me can fall for borderline womens intense lovebombing at first too? It worked on the wealthiest man in the World it can work on others.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118987736#Comment_118987736

unfortunately, this is just a default of the system, there simply isnt enough availability to such services in the country, we re not willing to invest in them, and we re not the only country doing so.....

thefallingman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118987748#Comment_118987748

listen we house and pay refuges all over the country without even checking their history and we've seen recently what some of them end up doing, we should be able to subsidise counsellors and shrinks for people referred by their GP, there's no excuse it's just not an in vogue problem, no appetite to fix this issue at all.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118987769#Comment_118987769

...but it continues, again, we have decided not to appropriately invest into our health system for such services, and the reality is, this is very unlikely to occur, ever, so.......

its also important to remember, our health system is physical health care biased, as i suspect most around the world are, i think we re only truly starting to understand the complexities of our phycological health care needs, and realizing, our health care systems are deeply unprepared for so ....

joseywhales

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118987743#Comment_118987743

I am speaking more about the profession. Historically psychology and psychiatry have been treated with mistrust, mostly because of cases where treatment has been imposed on people against their will and because a diagnosis comes with a label that carries stigma. Here a diagnosis is being used to undermine a patient. It's just another case of "don't trust those doctors, they don't have your interests at heart". I think psychologist s who agree to be used as a weapon like this for money I assume, undermine the entire profession.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118987794#Comment_118987794

She's a clinician dispensing her professional diagnosis.

Pathologising is part and parcel of clinical diagnosis. If you refuse to accept that, we may as well knock psychology, psychiatry and all the mental health professions on the head and revert back to biblical notions of good vs evil and witch trials.

There is scope for bands of disagreement with what's going on with Heard, but I think it's a fair statement to say she's disordered and exhibits clear anti social behaviour. Severing a partners finger is criminal behaviour, coercive control is criminal behaviour. Accountability needs to flow from actions. She wasn't suffering a psychotic break, this was consistent maladaptive behaviour over the course of years and a clinician agreed that the constellation of behaviour meets a certain diagnosis.

There's no point in giving her a lollipop and patting her on the head "there there". There's also no use in infantalising her. She's a grown ass woman that (for my money anyway) was physically and psychologically abusive to her partner. A BPD diagnosis is just a window for her to get well, if indeed she wants to. Alongside that, she needs to be accountable for her actions. I wish her well, but only really if she accepts she needs help and that she needs to change - for her own sake and for the sake of the people she shares a life with.

joseywhales

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118987875#Comment_118987875

Pathologising is part and parcel of clinical diagnosis. If you refuse to accept that, we may as well knock psychology, psychiatry and all the mental health professions on the head and revert back to biblical notions of good vs evil and witch trials.

So your last paragraph is about a judgement of Heard specifically, which I'm not interested in here. Regarding the quoted piece here, surely the primary role of a psychologist is to act as a tool or resource for the patient, not on behalf of society to provide judgement on an individual unless it is a case of deciding incarceration to protect herself or others. I have no problem with pathologising in the context of providing treatment for a patient but when it is used here to help provide external judgement, it breaks down the trust that the profession depends on.

To be frank, if I had been Heard, I would have refused to participate with any mental health professional unless legally compelled to because obviously, as in this case, as an individual you cannot trust mental health professionals to have the patients best interests at heart.

I have been in this situation myself with access to an industrial psychologist free of charge which I debated taking advantage of for my own professional development. I simply couldn't trust that a man employed by my company would put my interests above that of his own and the companies, despite his protestation that he is bound by confidentiality, I felt it was just too risky. So I unfortunately had to decline. That is not a big deal but there may be people suffering out there, considering reaching out for help and turning away when they see examples of psychologists whose diagnosis are used to undermine their patients in court cases.

You mentioned some evidence of her bad behavior, surely that evidence stands on its own without the need of an expert to provide their professional opinion. It is for the jury to form an opinion based on the evidence to decide whether a crime has been committed. Whether she is mentally ill or not would seem irrelevant. It is not against the law to be mentally ill.

JP Liz V1

I've never heard of this until now