Amber Heards Borderline personality disorder

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118988105#Comment_118988105

Clinical psychologists appear as both defence and prosecution witnesses regularly in almost any functioning legal system you care to mention. It's been a feature of both civil and criminal trials for many decades.

You say it's weaponised. These people are experts in the field of human behaviour and mental pathologies. If you're seriously objecting to their involvement in the legal process, you are allowing a factual vacuum to be filled by bonehead lawyers and eager and maximilist proesecuters who can concoct any sort of conclusion about a defendant or party to a case without challenge.

Amber Heard submitted herself to clinical examination including comprehensive behavioural questionnaires and interview. Her legal representation did not restrain her from doing so, nor did they try to restrain Depp's legal team.

I never argued it's against the law to be mentally ill, but it is the case that being mentally ill is not necessarily a defence in court for criminal misconduct or civil wrongs commited against a person, and least of all for personality disorders (unlike, let's say someone suffering from psychosis or schizophrenia whose judgement or baseline persona may be severely impaired by their illness).

joseywhales

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118988156#Comment_118988156

I suppose I don't believe a factual vacuum can be filled with a clinical decision on mental illness. Since as we both know, mental illness is not a crime. Nor do I believe the theatrics of a lawyer can fill a factual vacuum. If I am a juror, I am trying to be clinical with the facts and not to be swayed by emotional sensibilities. If a diagnosis can be used to determine whether a crime has been committed, we can say that it has stigmatized the illness, since by definition crimes are disliked by society, therefore so is a mental illness that infers the execution of such a crime. The psychologist here has been remunerated for providing a service which stigmatizes bpd in this case. I would question the professional ethics of that. Conversely, if a diagnosis is not considered a relevant fact to deciding whether a crime has been committed, then I question the relevance of such testimony in the trial at all.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118988257#Comment_118988257

No diagnosis will determine for a jury if a crime has been committed or not. A judge would not allow it and there is developed case law and standards in common law jurisdictions to prevent this.

You're rather making a narrow point that pychological evidence should be entirely excluded from the legal process, when it's inclusion has done more to assist juries (and judges) to contextualise the mental state of defendants, victims of crime or other parties to a case more than any other professional field.

Should stigma be removed from mental illness and treatment? Absolutely. Does mental illness act as a shield against legal accountibility? No, only in very specific and narrow circumstances (already outlined).

Look, if we removed the BPD diagnosis from Heard, we'd be back to Victorian era descriptors of her personality and conduct.

Howard Beale

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118988131#Comment_118988131

Well for you.

You only here about Borderline personality disorder usually until you deal with the people with it, its best not to.

Howard Beale

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118988364#Comment_118988364

The thing with BPD folk in my experience is they are very aware of what they are doing but often have a slim grasp on reality so don't really understand the damage they are doing to themselves. It's such a crazy mental illness as they will demolish everything in their life and not care yet get upset about someone looking at them 'funny' or someone giving them a bad coffee in a coffeeshop. They will care not for their lifes but get upset over the most trivial crap imaginable.

I mean Amber 'No one will believe you; you are a man' Heard knew her domestic abuse was wrong did it stop her? Did it hell.

nothing

@Howard Beale your singular real life experience with one individual does not make you an expert in every person who suffers from BPD, and is definitely not somehow superior to scientific research into it. You have been bashing every woman who has the misfortune to suffer with it, as if they are all identical to the one individual you had some small experience with. It's actually disgusting behaviour.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118988374#Comment_118988374

this is an understandable statement, but people with bpd are in great emotional pain and generally dont want to behave as such, they ultimately need compassion, empathy and understanding from others, to help them get to a better place

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118988374#Comment_118988374

Best not to deal with people with it? Stigmatizing them..

Howard Beale

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118988433#Comment_118988433

I'm only referencing two women on planet Earth. Two!

My ex and Amber Heard. 2 women to you is 'every woman'???? You aren't big up on logic are you?

I think their abuse (the 2 I mentioned), violence, meltdowns, splitting, screaming, threats of suicide etc etc is disgusting and not some random fella's experiences online but each to their own.

Trust me I someone doubt if a BPD woman in a rage is coming at you you would feel sympathy for them.

Thankfully you haven't had that experience so you don't know.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118988649#Comment_118988649

But you’ve only actually met one of those people, the other you saw in Aquaman. The first (and the other) is not defined by their mental illness nor are they the definition of that illness.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118988649#Comment_118988649

again, yes these are known outcomes of the disorder, and again, theyre effectively not doing it deliberately, as most symptoms are based in the disorders main issue, 'the fear of abandonment'

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118988410#Comment_118988410

Howard I feel your experience is clouding your ability to see beyond it.

How long were you in a relationship with your ex for?

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118988678#Comment_118988678

Indeed according to American DSM-V: “Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment; this does not include suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in criterion 5.”

Also keep in mind that there are different editions of the book for America and for Europe; diagnoses that try to cross over may be riddled with cultural biases.

https://www.psychologyhub.co.uk/culture-bias-in-psychology/

Howard Beale

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118988582#Comment_118988582

Well look who's back. Yes Best not to deal with UNTREATED BPD women. They are very mentally unwell and can be violent.

You can hardly stigmatize a group of people you have dated. Have you dated a BPD woman? No. So therefore I have put more time, effort, money, help, sympathy, listening, holidays etc etc into helping a Borderline woman than you ever have or you ever will. Like by your own admission you have no experience with them and have never done anything for them!

My experience is only with one woman that's enough for me but I have helped or least tried to help a mentally unwell BPD woman a million times more than you ever ever could have. It takes the patience of a saint to do so and it's something you never would so I don't know where you get off to be honest.

You simply don't want people discussing it which ironically is the main source of stigma of mental illness. Silence on the subject.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118988724#Comment_118988724

a side note, its interesting to see the uncertainties in relation to histrionic, with regards dsm v, i wonder will it be altered in dsm 6

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118988759#Comment_118988759

Again, one woman you dated is not a group of anyone.

If you wanted to just discuss the disease the Psychology/Psychiatry forum is best suited for that. I’ve no idea if this thread would comply with their charter but I doubt it.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118988759#Comment_118988759

cluster b disorders are relatively common, with over lapping symptoms, so theres actually a very good chance most have had to deal with at least one person in their life with such disorders

Howard Beale

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118988774#Comment_118988774

I never said it was, it's you making that absurd suggestion not me. As I have said a million times I can only go off personal experiences.

The disease? WOW. You really really are clueless on it aren't you. That's incredible. The 'disease'

nothing

I actually have much more experience on the matter than you @Howard Beale, and you are saying that based on your experience, this is how all BPD suffering women are, that's a hell of a leap, which you keep denying in one paragraph and reiterating in another on the same posts.

You are talking about a subject that you know very little about, which is so obvious from your posts. One experience does not an expert make.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118988759#Comment_118988759

It is the manner in which you are discussing it Howard.

I also have experience of the disorder and that is in both genders.

While it can be extremely difficult at times to be around some people who have BPD, that isn't the case for every one of them. In fact life with others can go along fairly ok and the battles are found internally with themselves. Again emphasis on the word 'can'.

You have been hurt, that's clear to see. When we understand (not excuse) the reasons why a person is the way they are, why they engage in maladaptive behaviours, or say certain things, our capacity for compassion expands.

A conversation about serious mental illness is absolutely welcome but not so if all it does is bash those people and make blanket assumptions.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118988810#Comment_118988810

“You can hardly stigmatize a group of people you’ve dated.” I’ve only your own words to go off what you’ve said. You went on to claim untreated BPD women (nevermind men?) are violent and should not be dealt with. How does abandoning someone with abandonment issues constitute compassion for said person? And if they are untreated for BPD how is the average Joe suppose to identify one of these violent womens to be avoided? What are the signs of the stigma to look out for? If they’re untreated they’re hardly diagnosed are they.

Howard Beale

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118988820#Comment_118988820

So do enlighten us to with your extensive knowledge and experience on the subject.

May I ask what your extensive experience of Borderline Personality disorder actually is? I mean no point in just that and then leaving it is there?

nothing

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118988924#Comment_118988924

I know several people who suffer from it, as well as being a woman suffering from it myself.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118988862#Comment_118988862

I kind of agree with you. But only just. Yes, distancing yourself form a BPD individual who has abandonment issues will likely deepen their malaise. But when does compassion bleed over into masochism?

If the abandonment issues are comorbid with psychological and physical abuse, what would you advise a close friend or relative to do? You'd advise them to get gone and stay gone, that's what.

I was reading a case online about a stalker of an ex-girlfriend who was given a suspended sentance yesterday. For all the world (and I'm aware I say this as an untrained person), that guy had clear signs of a personality disorder. This is serious stuff. We have only one life and to give it over to someone who is hardwired to hurt you is a sacrifice too far in my opinion.

Another unfortunate fact of BPD individuals is their resistance to treatment. Both in their disposition in treatment, and in seeking it in the first place.

If someone isn't playing ball when it's clear something isn't right, no, I'm sorry, I'm not burning my life to the ground for the sake of someone's disordered personality which they refuse to admit is harming me and others.

As I said, it's a sticky wicket. Compassion, yes to an extent. Masochism and self-immolation, no.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118988935#Comment_118988935

If they’re already being violent towards you of course take care of yourself. That’s not the impression I got from their posts, which was to veer away from such women (particularly women) if they were suspected of having it on the risk they may later become violent.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118988931#Comment_118988931

Well now that is the extensive experience he was earnestly looking for.

Howard Beale

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118988862#Comment_118988862

 'How does abandoning someone with abandonment issues constitute compassion for said person? '

Are you honestly saying say a woman who is a very abusive relationship with a BPD man should stay in the relationship out of compassion for him? Until when exactly? Until she is beaten to death in front of the children is it? So someone should sacrifice all their wellbeing to stay in a abusive relationship out of abandonment fears of their spouse? Why? Would you sacrifice all your mental and physical well being for someone else's fear of abandonment? No you wouldn't. The hypocrisy from you is absurd.

Nothing you say makes any sense really no offense. See below also

'If they are untreated they are hardly diagnosed?'

Again more illogical nonsense, I mean you could be diagnosed with Cancer and refuse all chemotherapy treatments. Same thing.

Loads of people with mental illness refuse counselling/CBT/DBT/medication etc etc. It's hardly uncommon.

The average Joe so to speak would know as they should be upfront about their mental illness should they not? You don't want honesty is it?

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118988973#Comment_118988973

I already addressed half of this with Yurt a moment ago.

If the person with BPD is not being treated they’d hardly know they were diagnosed with it now would they. Maybe your ex was diagnosed; do you just mean if a girl you’re dating tells you she’s been diagnosed with BPD that we should just stay away? If they don’t tell me, how do I know? Am I looking out for red flags?

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118988944#Comment_118988944

I note you left the psychological abuse aspect out of the equation, which I'd strongly argue is at least as harmful to a partner.

If you're being abused and the person has no insight, and doesn't want insight how they're harming you, cutting and running is the best option. It's what I'd advise a close friend or relative 7 days a week if they were in that situation.

I'm sending there is a strong gender play bubbling under the surface of both you and the person you're jousting with if I'm to be frank.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118989009#Comment_118989009

Gender play?