Should we limit the number of TDs to 160

We've been down this road before with the County councillors having more power. There's a reason it was taken away from them, there was so much corruption going on it was farcical.

In addition councillors are populist policy chasing lemmings.

One prime example is in Galway city, the removal of a RAB went back and forth between the executive and the Councillors for years. Was a 5 arm RAB becoming a 4 arm light controlled junction.

The Councillors both accepted and rejected all versions put to them until they were finally told make a choice or lose the funding. Essentially they had to be treated like children to get them to do their job.

Honestly, the sooner zoning powers are removed from them, the better

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119092391#Comment_119092391

They already are matched, indeed there has historically been a bias against Dublin - there has never been one towards Dublin

Dublin Central would have a large amount of people not entitled to vote in general elections, and also generally low turnout. These impact the quota but that does not suggest that they have more TDs per population.

Additionally, Dublin Central is a 4 seat (~120k population) and Tipperary is a 5 seat (~150k population) so quota wouldn't even be comparable. And it was five candidates in Tipp that got it, not that the figure means anything.

nigeldaniel

Well, as I said a few years ago during a meeting of like minds [labour and FF] 4 TDs per county was enough. They did not exactly endorse it but did not dismiss it either. Vast numbers of TDs here do nothing of note at all. A small government and small opposition would work much better in all. Alas, too many TDs like their paychecks and all the extras that come with it. It's a career of one's self and not much in the way of serving the state. Hench the rise of the filibusters and grandstanders rhetoric specialists and so on. It's a game of the XXX factor and not much else. politics it certainly is not.

Sam Russell

When the number of TDs is reduced, then the choice of elected candidates for high office is reduced, and given the current workload for Ministers because of our increased involvement with EU, UN, and NI/UK, there needs to be talent in those Ministerial positions. Look at the current UK Cabinet, where only the most loyal (to the PM) need apply - all that get the gig are talentless numpties who are little more than nodding dogs because there are few otherwise that could be loyal to such an individual.

We have a ministerial system where 15 ministers form the cabinet as allowed in the constitution, and we have now allowed (who did?) another 15 or so Junior Ministers to take up executive positions. So we have 30 or so ministers and these come from the Gov party/parties leaving the balance of Gov TDs as backbenchers. If one assumes that at least 50% of Gov TDs are backbenchers (required to fill committee positions), then that would imply a minimum of 60 Gov TDs, or a Dail of 120 or more. So 160 would look like an adequate number to cover all requirements in our system.

The constitution uses a linear relationship between population and representation which is based on faulty logic because the larger the population, the less per capita representation is required, as any examination of democratic countries parliament worldwide would expose.

What we need, more than extra TDs, is a more representative local government with effective powers, such as would result from a regional local Gov structure of say 5 or 6 regions - all with devolved responsibilities. Our system of government is far too centralised, with TDs becoming, in some circumstances, just messengers interfacing with Gov departments. [This is happening currently with respect to passports and the huge delays happening with first-time applications].

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119168560#Comment_119168560

What we need, more than extra TDs, is a more representative local government with effective powers, such as would result from a regional local Gov structure of say 5 or 6 regions - all with devolved responsibilities.

We had this, it was riddled with corruption and the only way to fix it was to neuter the powers councillors had.

About the only thing they still have power over is zoning and its evident by some of the farcical situations around the country, that there is still a lot of corruption prevalent.

https://www.friendsoftheirishenvironment.org/fie-work/36-papers-today/planning/13430-

Sam Russell

Well, there is that - corruption would be an issue.

Of course such a change would require strong anti-corruption measures, but the regional local government would be such that the likes of Kerry CC would be counterbalanced by Cork or Limerick who would be unlikely to back such matters. Zoning is matter that lends itself to corruption, and that is best managed by a betterment tax that makes the rezoning of no value to the land owner.

Crooks can become politicians and politicians can become crooks.

titan18

Considering our whip system and the strength of the whip, we pretty much don't need anymore than 7/8 TDs. They've feck all of an individual voice and they'll just vote based on what the leader of the party wants them to vote.

L1011

171 TDs now required with the census results. More than can actually fit on the existing seats!

With a census again in four years it may sense to go beyond the minimum

Victor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119238661#Comment_119238661

There is plenty of space in the room to move things around.

Victor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119168352#Comment_119168352

4 TDs per county? County population varies from 35,087 (Leitrim) to 1,450,701 (Dublin).

Victor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119168910#Comment_119168910

You do realise that if TDs are sufficiently upset over something that they can change party policy and/or the party leader?

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119168352#Comment_119168352

So four TDs for Leitrim, four for Cork, four for Dublin... seriously?

timmyntc

Local authorities such as town councils being abolished, and county councils having their powers reduced was nothing to do with corruption and everything to do with budget cuts.

The idea that corruption in LA means we should just forego local democracy altogether and deal with everything at the national level is absurd. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Corruption necessitates anti-corruption measures, not the abolishment of an entire democratic function.

-----------------------------

Dáil Eireann as it stands get very little done, with even more TDs they will get even less done. Adding more TDs also doesnt add any more representation, its just window dressing.

If the EU parliament announced they were doubling the number of MEPs tomorrow, would that mean better representation for Ireland, having 2x the MEPs? No. Because every other nation gets 2x MEPs aswell, the numbers required for majority decisions has just increased 2x, so any increase in MEPs has been cancelled out. The exact same thing applies to more TDs in the national level here in Ireland. More TDs per person changes almost nothing, because the increase in number of TDs means each TDs Dail vote is worth less.

Regional democracy/local authorities is the only way to improve representation as it restricts the local issues to the local population, meaning your vote is worth more as its only you and others in your locality who have a say. We need to get local issues out of the national parliament entirely, and TDs can be fixed at whatever number is cost effective.

Hotblack Desiato

Well if we don't want to increase the number of TDs then we will have to have a referendum - fixing it at or close to the current number regardless of future population growth is probably best.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119239749#Comment_119239749

It may not yet be the most pressing topic, but it is going to be needed sooner or later.

Victor

There has been the suggestion that the cube root of the population of a country is the ideal parliament size.

For Ireland, that would be 172. Based on today's numbers, we could adopt that rule with no major change.

Sam Russell

Dublin is four counties: Dublin City, Dublin South County, Fingall, DL Rathdown.

Victor

If we are being pedantic, Dublin City is a city, not a county.

Sam Russell

So is Galway City, and Cork, Limerick, Waterford.

Be as pedantic as you like.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119096465#Comment_119096465

We have already reduced the number of LA from 114 to 31.

And you want to cut the 31 to 7!!!!

We have few LA compared to other countries.

France has 35,000!!!

DK has 103.

The NL have 392.

StevenToast

Number of TDs should be 100.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119240647#Comment_119240647

The seven LA are actually to be Regional Assemblies - that is akin to the Scottish Parliament. I would envisage them having significant powers devolved from the Dail that would make them responsible for education, health, police, housing, planning, and the like. The current LA structure would implement the policies laid down by the regional assembly.

Current LA structure in Ireland can hardly be considered as a serious attempt at democracy when unelected executives wield all the power.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119240322#Comment_119240322

Dublin is 1 county, it is 4 county councils which is arguably counter-productive in a lot of ways. It would still be insanely unrepresentative to have 16 Dublin TDs and 4 Longford TDs.

Geuze

Ok, so you are suggesting a third tier of Govt.

With their own parliaments/councils, with elected members?

You suggest transferring substantial responsibilities from Central Govt to these Regional Govts.

I don't disagree with you.

However, I make a few points:

(1) many people seem to want fewer TDs/politicians / Govts, so I'm not sure there is widespread public support for another tier of Govt?

(2) If expenditures are assigned to these Regional Councils, then taxing powers must follow

(3) the Central Govt would be very slow to give up powers

Sam Russell

We have Dublin City Council and then we have Galway City Council. Hardly equal, especially when Galway County Council is included.

Galway City Council are responsible for parking, but not in the docks. There is local Gov in action.

With a regional structure, TDs wold have no part in those powers that have been devolved. You can see the MEPs have little part in local Gov, or even the Dail.

So we would have MEPs, TD and regional assembly members, and local councils.