Fall of the Catholic Church

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119047427#Comment_119047427

Who are you trying to convince? Us or you?

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119045797#Comment_119045797

And thats the Church's fault Andrew??? With the rapid increase in population we are experiencing, you can add Schools ( of any or no persuasion ) to the growing list......roads, , health, housing, etc. the list goes on. In Portmarnock region, there are several school's who are up in arms over proposed divestment plans. They do not want change, they are quite happy with the education they, and now their kids are getting. And they are also very angry that the Church is seen to be the prime resistant to divestment, whereas one of the parents said that the Church had absolutely no hand act or part in the discussion. They ( the Church) were not even at the public meeting to discuss it. So, yes, I wonder just how much resistance is coming not from the Church ( who have stated that they are not objecting to diversification when the majority request and agree to it) but by local people who do not want to change a system which has served them well in the past.

Sunny Disposition

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119047512#Comment_119047512

Ah the church brought a message of understanding and forgiveness, blaming it for the intolerance of Ireland is misplaced. Maybe you had to be there to really appreciate that.

Since the (hopefully temporary) decline in mass attendance the quiet kindness of the broad public has declined, with a rise in online cynicism and individualism.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119046976#Comment_119046976

The cover up and denials had to be possibly the most unforgivable aspect of the whole thing , and by God, that's saying something when you think what these criminals dressed as clergy did. And the resultant damage it has done to the Church, will take years and years to recover from, if ever. But as a reaction to that, I'd say that the slightest whiff of any clerical misdemeanor or scandal, would bring down the Pope himself on top of the perpetrator. It's strictly a policy if no tolerance now. I'd say.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119047725#Comment_119047725

No, they brought a message if fear and demanded unconditional obedience. And it worked for a while until their numbers declined and they had to moderate themselves.

The numbers going to mad won't change unless the church gets proactive - we already have morals without them (just not *their* morals) - and they have nothing more to offer.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119047725#Comment_119047725

In the words of the great John McEnroe:

"You CANNOT be serious"

Sunny Disposition

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119047821#Comment_119047821

You are wrong. The church always preached forgiveness of sin. Always. And prayer for sinners. We, as a society, have largely lost the capacity for forgiveness sadly. Again, it’s something that wouldn’t have happened if mass attendance was higher.

Sunny Disposition

It’s mad that people hate the Church because of a perceived arrogance when a fundamental part of its teaching is that we are all sinners and all need forgiveness. It’s a far less harsh message than many people think.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119048078#Comment_119048078

That doesn't actually counter anything I said.

The forgiveness of sun is exactly what I mean by fear. They are no authority on what sin is and were not forgiving (although I accept the later has changed, the former has not: they still think a sin against their church is a sin against God, and that is fallacy. Examples - abortion, contraception, masturbation, homosexuality...)

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119047724#Comment_119047724

It absolutely IS the fault of the church that they continue to impose religious teaching, religious iconography, religious events on people who really don't want to be part of that stuff in their schools.

If they had any respect for the public at large, and any real confidence in the value of their own message, they would get religion out of schools and do it on private time and private money.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119048404#Comment_119048404

They’re providing a service to society. Of course they should be paid for that service out of public funds. Nobody who doesn’t want to, is required to avail of the services they provide.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119048561#Comment_119048561

Nobody except the thousands of people who have no choice but to use church schools given that 95% of schools are church schools

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119048623#Comment_119048623

And when thousands of people decide that they agree with you that church schools do not have any value in terms of education, then maybe they might join you in petitioning their elected representatives, the DES, and even going as far as the UN, to force Government to establish more schools, not only to cater for the growing population, but to cater for future generations. That’s one of the more useful things about the Census, as opposed to it being used by idiots to thumb their respective noses at each other like children.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119048404#Comment_119048404

And what about ( yes, ( know, I know ) the people who want all the religious "frills" etc in the schools? They are to be given no say, according to your plan??? So much for democratic process.... By all means, if the majority want their local schools changed to non-denominational, fire away. But I'm not so sure that everyone everywhere wants that, and it is not down to the Church either. There are lots of places where the population is more than happy with their educational arrangements, and have been for many years, generational in fact, and they don't want change. But according to you, they're not allowed a voice are they?? Union job, one out, all out???

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119048404#Comment_119048404

Excellent point. I doubt many in the clergy or flock have confidence in the message anymore. It's all man-made and it has aged badly.

downtheroad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119048729#Comment_119048729

Swimming isn't on the school curriculum but some schools offer swimming as an extra curricular activity. Paid for by parents and carried on outside of school hours.

Religion should be treated exactly the same way. If you really want your child to go to mass, learn about god, do the sacraments, then do it yourself and stop wasting valuable time in the classroom that could be spent on something useful like a foreign language.

almostover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119030443#Comment_119030443

Good enough for GAA, golf or music? Are you having a laugh? Were mothers good enough for the RCC? Considering they had to be 'churched' after giving birth. Or considering women can't hold any positions of power in the RCC? Not to mention our disgusting history with unmarried mothers whose church considered them to be 'fallen women' unworthy of even a modicum of consideration or empathy. No just hide them away in the laundries and sell their 'illegitimate' children to wealthy Brits and Yanks to prop up the church coffers.

The RCC as an institution is rotten to the core and the sooner it dies out the better.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119048729#Comment_119048729

Even in the few areas where official surveys have been done, it's very easy for the parish priests and catholic school principals to stir up enough fear of change. They've been caught lying through their teeth to frighten parents. They only need 51% (of those who vote) in each school to keep all of the schools in that area catholic. That's not fair and it's not right.

Meanwhile parents of future pupils don't get a say at all

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119048078#Comment_119048078

Bollox. It preached it and raped children on an industrial, global scale. Words cost nothing.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119048561#Comment_119048561

If that's the case, then the State is the customer. They need to be told to provide what is requested - education with no religion - or their services will be no longer required.

Frankly, I'd be fine with either.

downtheroad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119048936#Comment_119048936

There can be no forgiving the rape of a child. Or burying a child in a septic tank.

Blinkers are firmly on for some people in this thread it seems.

Sunny Disposition

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119048307#Comment_119048307

Hey, it was Jesus who informed the world of what sins are, no point in blaming the Church for it.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119048871#Comment_119048871

Swimming IS on the school curriculum, or the national curriculum, has been for a while now, though funding for it from the DES is like trying to get blood from a stone, which is why parents are often agreeing with the school to fund it themselves -

Pg. 66 of the document below outlines the requirements in aquatics as part of physical education -

https://www.curriculumonline.ie/getmedia/ca8a385c-5455-42b6-9f1c-88390be91afc/PSEC05_Physical-Education_Curriculum.pdf

I think you’re missing the point of a religious ethos school btw, the school existed before any of the children attending it were born, it will continue to exist long after the children currently in attendance have moved on, unless there comes a point when the school is no longer viable due to poor enrolment numbers. Then the school is likely to either close down completely, or be amalgamated with other existing schools in the area.

It wouldn’t matter whether parents are willing or not to do all the things outside of school hours, they’re expected to do that anyway as members of the Catholic Church (unless they’re not members of the Catholic Church), but the Clergy aren’t the religious police*, they’re not able to cope with the workload as it is. Anyway, it wouldn’t matter because the school is still providing a religious education, in accordance with it’s ethos. That’s why religion is part of the characteristic spirit of the school, because it forms part of the functions of a school which meet the requirements in the Education Act 1998 -

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1998/act/51/section/9/enacted/en/html

*wouldn’t that be fun - “arrest me father for I have sinned”, be a truckload of martyrs wanting to play the victim if this thread is anything to go by! 😂

downtheroad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119049041#Comment_119049041

Just curious, do you appreciate the bouncy castle catholics taking the piss out of your faith by showing up for just 3 events in a lifetime and never darkening the door of a church on a Sunday morning?

Would you not prefer to actually have people who are interested and engaged in the catholic church, enrol as members?

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119048942#Comment_119048942

This is not the post I quoted… 😳

Well, it is, but the original text appears to have undergone some form of transubstantiation 😏

The State isn’t the customer anyway. It’s not that sort of relationship. The State provides FOR education. The education providers receive funding on the basis that they are recognised schools which teach the national curriculum. No education provider receives public funding for the education which is based upon their ethos.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119048942#Comment_119048942

Simple Princess lets hold a referendum. That'll sort the whole thing out.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119048729#Comment_119048729

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119048689#Comment_119048689

People vote on their degree of interest in religion every Sunday morning, when they stay in bed late for a Sunday shag, or go to watch the football or take the kids to football or swimming, anything except going to mass. We all see the average age groups of those going into the church, 60s and 70s, from the half-empty car parks.

They couldn't be arsed getting out of bed for mass, but they think they can control the indoctrination of other people's children?

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119049066#Comment_119049066

Do I appreciate them is an odd way to phrase the question tbh, I don’t think of anyone in those terms. I get what you’re asking obviously, but to be honest with you I really don’t care about how anyone else expresses their faith, I’m delighted that they’re happy, and when they’re not, I’ll try and support them as best I can. That’s what a community, or a communion of people if you like, would naturally be expected to do for each other. I see no reason to be the arbiter of other peoples faith, it’s entirely the opposite of what is espoused by Christianity, and I’m certainly in no position to judge anyone else.

I don’t need to put the same question to you, because I don’t associate you with other people who can’t resist passing judgement on other people, regardless of their faith or none. The Catholic Church is a pretty broad one, so I wouldn’t expect everyone even within the Catholic community would share the same values I do, some people are just spiteful arseholes for the sake of being spiteful arseholes, nothing to do with religion. The way Margaret Cash was vilified on here for example, had nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with the fact that spiteful arseholes have always existed, and will continue to exist in any society, regardless of whether or not religion is a motivating factor in how they treat other people.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119049133#Comment_119049133

Ok Andrew, enough about the priests already 😒

😂

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119049080#Comment_119049080

It's very possible I edited while you replied, apologies if so. Woudn't have been any major changes, though.

But the State is providing FOR education, then the church is not providing a service. It's its own customer then and servicing itself.

The State is the one that ultimately makes the rules and needs to enforce them or stop signing checks.