Fall of the Catholic Church

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119055174#Comment_119055174

Thev while thing sounds cynical to me considering most of those kids won't see the inside of a church again until their confirmation or someone dies.

Hamachi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119055189#Comment_119055189

It was a confirmation Princess. The kids had already made their communion. I don’t know what the future holds for those young girls in terms of their engagement with the Catholic Church.

All I know is that yesterday was a wonderful day, filled with family, community, and light. Hundreds of people coming together to celebrate the confirmation of their little girls. I don’t have a strong faith and am not even sure I believe.

However, yesterday was the very antithesis of cynical. It was a genuinely moving, joyful, life-affirming day.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119033930#Comment_119033930

I’ll summarise this for you:

Any major religion:

”I believe this, this, this and this. If you don’t also believe these things then you are a mentally challenged scrote and a c**t”.

DublinMeath:

”I believe this, this, this and this. If you don’t also believe these things then you are a mentally challenged scrote and a c**t”.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119055257#Comment_119055257

My apologies, confirmation.

The problem with the sens of community is that its built on a lie. I've seen it and been to my own niece's communion (actual communion, just to be clear!), and it was just so fake.

That's not how communities should be built.

downtheroad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119055257#Comment_119055257

And how many of those girls attended a regular Sunday mass between the day of their communion and confirmation I wonder. In all likelihood it was very few. If so, then what is the point of these sacraments.

It's the equivalent of a child showing up on the day of a cup final, having not bothered to attend training or a regular season match all year.

Those proud and beaming parents wouldn't accept that behaviour when coaching the kids football team, but the hypocrisy on communion and confirmation day is huge.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119055257#Comment_119055257

Herself's cousin's granddaughter has Downs. When it came time for confirmation, their church (NYC) insisted that the girl and her friend, also with Downs, take confirmation in the basement of the Church with the rest of their friends being confirmed in the main chapel along with parents, etc.

Before confirmation, the Pope visited NYC and gave Mass at St. Patrick's cathedral. After Mass, as is his fashion, he walked among the attendees giving blessings. The two Downs kids were there and received some special attention - when asked by the Pope what he could do for them, one of their parents told his reps the plans for the Confirmation. They took note...

Fast forward to confirmation day; the two Downs kids along with others were confirmed, in the chapel at St. Patrick's. Their peers were confirmed back at the local church.

Sure there was no cynicism evident at the event you mention? Any disabled kids being confirmed? And, why was confirmation girls only? In the US it's girls and boys. What's up with that?

downtheroad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119055257#Comment_119055257

Hundreds of people coming together to celebrate the confirmation of their little girls.

What does this mean? What was being celebrated? The confirmation and the bishop are of no interest to the children, its the photos, the dress, the party that they are interested in.

But I genuinely don't understand what you were celebrating? If the children disappear now from the church, maybe show up again for the odd Christmas mass and then a wedding or 2, you aren't celebrating their confirmation - you're just laughing in the face of the church and taking the piss out of one of its main sacraments.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119055309#Comment_119055309

Well maybe it's time the kids abused the church for a change...?

Hamachi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119055288#Comment_119055288

It’s a shame you couldn’t take anything positive from your niece’s communion Princess.

Personally, my eldest daughter is 5, as is the eldest son of my sister. They will be making their communion concurrently. We were just saying yesterday how much we are looking forward to celebrating this event together as a family.

Now my sister goes to mass fairly regularly and is more into the religious aspect. However, what we both agree on is that it will be wonderful to come together as a family to recognize a milestone in our kids lives.

B.A._Baracus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119054862#Comment_119054862

Ah yes the splitting hairs mentality. Usual shite on here I see.

"no one said ban!" - even tho people, more than post 2, said how they would love if all religion wasn't around. ah sure that's not ban, right?

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119055361#Comment_119055361

Will there be boys being confirmed at the same event?

Hamachi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119055298#Comment_119055298

Now obviously I don’t know the mass-attending cadence of all those young girls, particularly as I don’t live in the town anymore.

With respect to my own niece, she is brought to mass every second or third week. Not weekly by a long shot, but relatively frequently. Three guys I went to school with were also having their daughters confirmed yesterday. I know that they bring their kids to mass fairly regularly. They were of the opinion that now that their daughters are confirmed, they are free to choose whether they continue attending into their teens or not. Seems like a pretty healthy attitude to me.

Honestly, it was so refreshing to see the kids taking such pride in doing their readings in English and Irish. They were beaming with the round of applause from the congregation. It was genuinely heart warming to see such a large gathering of joyful kids and families, an occasion that was replicated across many communities yesterday and in the coming weeks.

Hamachi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119055392#Comment_119055392

Why would boys be confirmed at a confirmation for a girls’ primary school?

The church was thronged yesterday. There wouldn’t have been room for a mixed gender confirmation unfortunately.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119055361#Comment_119055361

Maybe ignorace is bliss, but what I saw was reality and a shame. I'm not a good liar and I can't lie to myself and tell myself it was commnunity.

This goes back to what I said earlier: give me long-term real community based on honesty and mutual interests, not lacey made-up community one or twice a year that is gone in 24-hours. What you have sounds like a sounds like a drug.

nozzferrahhtoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119045346#Comment_119045346

When you say "many Catholics" it would be interesting to know how many is many I think. A question explored by A Commission of the Irish Catholic Bishops’ Conference.

In a country where only 38% of Catholics attend mass weekly. 23% of Catholics do not believe in a heaven. 25% do not believe in "sin". And 10% of Catholics...... Catholics I tells ya.... do not even say they believe there is a god. Something of a low bar for qualification as "catholic" I had once assumed. I have adjusted my assumptions since.

The statistics on prayer in Irish Catholics is equally minimalist. And when asked if their god is important in their life, these Catholics said yes with a rate around 26%.

In the north of Ireland around 23% of Catholics, and in the south closer to 29% believe in reincarnation. I was not even aware reincarnation was a tenet of Catholic Faith.

And your assumption of "If you believe in god you believe in devil" is just that, an assumption. And in fact it seems the figure of Catholics who believe in a "hell" is only around 50%. So those that believe in a devil (if any), it is unclear where they think that entity resides. So when you declare by fiat that if you believe in one, then you must believe in the other.... speak for yourself and your own assumptions. It is by no means an actual tenet of faith for many.

Anecdotally when I was experimenting on consecrated crackers scientifically, I met and conversed with many Catholics. They seemed very confused as to what they were meant to believe about the crackers. Belief fell into three main camps in my experience. 1) That the cracker was literally transformed into the flesh of their Nazarene carpenter or 2) That it was only metaphysically/spiritually changed into him or 3) that the entire ceremony was completely symbolic and the cracker before and after was just a cracker really.

You bring up "proof" of this god or this devil. I myself am not aware of any, after years of asking. By all means enlighten us if you find any arguments, evidence, data or reasoning which lends even a modicum of credence to the notion that a non human intelligent, intentional agent is at play in or around our universe. I am all ears.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119045945#Comment_119045945

I am not sure anyone said they are a negative? Rather they (like myself for example) have said that they are not the positive in the context people are trying to pretend they are. When discussion of the harms and benefits of church/religion come up, we inevitably see comments about the charity or social work those things do.

And my point is that this is not as relevant as people might want to pretend. Their BUSINESS MODEL is as a charity and social work broker. This is not a "benefit" per se. It is just a business like any other. And that distinction, in that context, is worth making.

AT BEST it shows us that religion and church are entirely superfluous to requirements when it comes to charity and social advancement. At worst, they bring harms and costs and insidious agendas along with that charity and social work.

Christopher Hitchens made the same distinction as I am making once about the charity and social work of religion. Though as with most things he and I both did, he did it much more incisively and eloquently. To paraphrase what he said: Hamass provides social services in Gaza while Louis Farrakan does great social work getting young black men off drugs. Does any of this change the big picture that one is a Militarised terrorist organisation with a fanatical antisemitic ideology while the other is a racist crackpot cult?

At best religion therefore appears to be a packaging that attempts to gain kudos by proxy to the product inside that packaging. It is not a force for charity and social work so much as a broker that enables it, and it's adherents try to give it the credit for the work others do in it's financial name. Do other charity brokers try that as consistently or at all? Does the National Lottery, or it's players, for example?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119047376#Comment_119047376

Whenever someone says "there is no question" or "it is undeniable" I find myself wondering what the evidence for their claim is. Because quite often what they call unquestionable or undeniable is actually entirely untrue, very questionable, and easily deniable. :) I wonder just how much of a "collapse" there has been therefore, and what the citations are for it. Certainly the book "Better Angels of our nature" has made the case, with any number of citations, that we are getting progressively better, less violent, and more moral as a society over all.

What we do have however is spheres of media, and social media, with business models that seem to amplify the noise of moral decline and crime and horror to the point it certainly FEELS like there has been a descent into madness in our species. But that clickbait driven amplification should be a warning as to what we should declare "undeniable".

All that aside however, even if we were to grant the assertion there has been such a decline "along with the decline in religion" then all we would have is a correlation. And correlation is not causation. Any suggestion (which to be clear, you did not EXPLICITLY make in your post, and it's more an inference that is potentially between the lines of what you wrote) that one is actually causally related to the other would be just empty assumption.

There is, to my knowledge, not just little but absolutely zero evidence that any god exists. The values you espouse are values I share.... courage, devotion, empathy and so on are great ideals and belief in a god is entirely superfluous to requirements in espousing them. If there is indeed an ongoing decline in religious and deity belief then you need new packaging to distribute those ideals. Instead of lamenting the loss of faith in a complete fantasy.... go back to the drawing board to create new ways to argue the case for those ideals.

As obama said in his keynote speech:

"I may be opposed to abortion for religious reasons, but if I seek to pass a law banning the practice, I cannot simply point to the teachings of my church or evoke God's will. I have to explain why abortion violates some principle that is accessible to people of all faiths, including those with no faith at all."

The same is true for the moral ideals you espoused above. Rather than lament the loss of the god hypothesis.... instead map your moral ideals onto principles accessibly to people of all faiths and none. That is secularism at it's core.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119048182#Comment_119048182

I am not so sure it is. It is a message, as one person once put it, of "being born sick, and commanded to become well".

I remember watching a documentary following the life of a girl in a homeschooling evangelic family. At one point she broke down crying in self hatred because she saw herself as sick and sinful and unable to ever attain the goal of perfection she believed her Messiah embodied.

So yes it is indeed "arrogance" to call everyone a sinner who needs the forgiveness of some all powerful deity. Especially forgiveness doled out by very much human clergy who decide what is sin and what is not on it's behalf. It is an insult to the beauty of what forgiveness and mercy actually should mean.

And forgiveness for WHAT exactly? If the fairy tales about god were true then we are functioning exactly as designed, according to a divine plan. What arrogance to assume we need forgiveness for the human condition for a design that was completely out of our power or control. If anyone requires forgiveness and guilt therefore, it is the designer. Let your deity prostrate itself for judgement and forgiveness sometime, if it's own arrogance allows.

My own axioms include the concept of "innocent until proven guilty". No one requires forgiveness who has not actually done anything wrong. Least of all for merely existing. You conflate self hatred and manufactured false guilt with humility it seems.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119054852#Comment_119054852

So.... they did not say it should be banned then. Did they? You are reading one thing, and hearing another thing completely.

I struggle to think of a single person, or any atheist, who I have ever heard suggest religion be banned. I am sure there must be SOMEONE saying that kind of thing.... there is always one.... but it seemingly has not happened here like you claim. And historically the people who are accused of trying to ban religion on a mass scale were not so much banning religion, so much as they were trying to usurp existing religion to replace it with a form of "state religion", which bears little or no resemblance to the secularism espoused by all and any atheists I have known.

What atheists generally seem to tout for is pure secularism. Which is that religion be kept out of our halls of education, science, and power. If someone is practising a private religion privately, there will be few if any atheists who will care a jot. I have heard analogies made between religion and masturbation for example. A lot of people get pleasure and relief and joy out of the latter.... but they keep the rest of us out of it.

You say in a post above however that someone is doing something good to another person because of their religion. I wonder ARE they though? Or do we tend to parse actions we would have done anyway, through our pet narratives? Realise for example that there has not been a single such moral or charitable action I am aware of that has not been performed by a person with no faith at all.

So is religion ACTUALLY making people do these things, or would they have been moved by empathy and the shared human condition to do them anyway? And which is more valuable anyway? Someone doing something good because god tells them to and they hope to be rewarded in the after life, or someone doing it because they believe it is the right thing to do without any incentive or reward? Which of those people is the more moral in your estimation?

I once heard it said "Good people will do good things, bad people will do bad things. But getting good people to do bad things.... that takes religion". Slightly exaggerated I would say, but by how much really? Because we can ALL find examples where this seems to be true. The example that always jumps to my mind is the parents who watch their children die, sometimes painfully, from easily treatable medical conditions solely because their religion preaches the immorality of some types of medical intervention. There was in fact a whole Time Magazine article about it many years ago I could find for you if you wish.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119055389#Comment_119055389

EXACTLY. It is not a ban. There are many things I would like to see not around any more myself. Not just religion. I have absolutely no inclination towards banning them however. In fact sometimes quite the opposite. I argue FOR things I would like to see LESS of.

A good example is abortion. I am strongly pro choice and have argued the pro choice position fairly coherently and effectively over the years, if I do say so myself. However I would absolutely love, and prefer, to live in a society where not a single abortion ever actually happens.

So too for fast food like McDonalds. I would like our society as a whole to recognise the value of good food, and non-sedentary lifestyles. I would love if bad fast food was simply gone. I absolutely do not argue for banning it however. Nor would I ever.

The same is true for religion. Like the person you are quoting I would love to see the day where our species evolves past it and leaves it behind in the infancy of our species like a child leaves behind bicycle stablizers. To suggest that that means I want it "banned" in some way is just a narrative spin you have invented out of nowhere to put your words into their mouth.

My suggestion: Don't do that. It makes you look bad. Not them.

B.A._Baracus

Dude, ain't nobody got time to read that wall of text. It's a forum. Not a blog.

nozzferrahhtoo

Speak for yourself. I have had long conversations with many people before. Your attention span is not representative of the rest of us.

It is a forum, not twitter, would be a more apt comparison.

Hamachi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119055535#Comment_119055535

I’m not a good liar either Princess. I’m relating the first-hand experience of my niece and my family yesterday, as we celebrated this milestone in her life, in a beautiful old building. Like I said, joyful and life-affirming. No drugs involved, with the exception of a few beers.

I suspect you and I have very different outlooks and family circumstances, which likely explains our very different reactions to these occasions. Diversity of experience and mindset I guess.

nozzferrahhtoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119055711#Comment_119055711

I guess the diversity of mindset in my own personal case... would be that if I want to celebrate milestones in my child's life I would err more towards ACTUAL milestones and not milestones inserted arbitrarily into the calendar by a religious institution.

I feel there are enough significant milestones in a child's life without needing to manufacture more. The first day, and final graduating day, of school, secondary school and university would be obvious examples. Numerically pleasing birthdays are another. 10, 13, 18, 21 tend to be the ones people gravitate towards. But a well lived childhood is punctuated by firsts.

The milestones I like the most are PERSONAL milestones rather than milestones that occur merely by existing. My children do sport and martial arts for example. The milestone of reaching a level that they actively COMPETE in their chosen sport is wonderful. Let alone the milestone of actually achieving a medal in it (the complete nonsense of participation medals aside).

It would depress me personally (only speaking for myself here) if the lives of my children were so empty that I needed manufactured external milestones to their existence in order to mark their life path.

That said though I personally find the catholic milestones to be pretty poor relative to other religions and cultures. Especially "coming of age" traditions. If one were to hold up the Catholic Confirmation to, for example, the party after a bar mitzvah or the mexican quinceañera. And they are INDIVIDUAL community celebration around the child in question rather than just filing them in in groups on a given date like we do with the confirmation.

All very subjective of course. But as a non religious person I find I do not lament the loss of communion or confirmation at all.... or feel we are missing out in any way whatsoever. YMMV of course. Subjective as I said :)

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119055711#Comment_119055711

Not really - I was just commenting on the fact that you though it was a shame I caw through the lie.

osarusan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119055361#Comment_119055361

Genuine question here. For people who are not religious (and it sounds like you are not and your daughter is not), in what way is it a 'milestone'?

I get that it can be a lovely day out, and it can act as a catalyst and bring families together and become a positive, affirming event in its own right.

But I don't see how it's a milestone for those who are not religious.

Cluedo Monopoly

I do think we will replace the Catholic occasions with other family celebrations for kids that are not built on so much 'fakery'. Perhaps a graduation from primary school or a special birthday that is much earlier than the usual 18th/21st. I have great hope for the young people growing up today. I think they will see through the nonsense and ask the tough questions without the usual Catholic 'baggage'. Most teens do not believe in God and must look back and wonder why their parents went through with all the charades especially within an organisation that treated children so badly for decades.

B.A._Baracus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119055648#Comment_119055648

If one needs paragraphs upon paragraphs to state their opinion on a forum, then we are into the realm of extremely opinionated or waffle.

As I say this is a forum not a blog. But you do you.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119056035#Comment_119056035

To be fair, Nozzferahhtoo's posts are brilliant. We are lucky to have such an intellectual on Boards. If you can't address the post, it's not his/her fault.

B.A._Baracus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119056062#Comment_119056062

Jaysus what an arselicking post. Lol.

Fair enough you agree with their comments. That's fine. But we are in luck to have such an intellectual on boards? Why don't you just blow them lol.

Seriously, is this the same person behind two accounts?

whisky_galore

I think people are adopting the line of least resistance, if it's too much like hard work, then, meh. They'll just slide into being cultural catholics/a la carte catholics.

Years ago, in rural areas, stations in your house were a big thing. Nowadays people just aren't bothered cleaning a house from top to bottom, laying out food and having a priest around and entertaining neighbours. Too much effort for no reward.

Pilgrimages, people still go on them but for reasons other than saving their soul.

Turn up at Mass for Xmas and Easter, have a sunday lie-in the rest of the year.

Have the kids go through the motions to please the grandparents and so they don't feel 'left out' of the rest of the class. Have a party, obligatory bouncy castle for kids and a booze up for the adults because that's what it's all about, right?

Hamachi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119055901#Comment_119055901

Ok Princess. That’s your perspective. I’ll leave it at that.

TooTired123

As someone who only dips in and out of Boards to see what’s being argued about today, and as someone who works in a public service and public facing role, I just wanted to chime in here and point out that this thread is clearly full of people living on the fringes of society with very little connection to the real lives of the vast majority of ordinary families in Ireland today.

Anyone who would look at a family enjoying themselves on a Communion or Confirmation day, all dressed up in the Spring sunshine, and think to themselves that it really is unfortunate, and wish that it weren’t so, and shake their heads sadly while bemoaning the stupidity and the herd mentality, is really to be pitied and shows a shocking lack of common sense.

That is all.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119056082#Comment_119056082

In fairness, you’re spot on there. It’s hilarious really.

Sunny Disposition

It has often been difficult to be a Catholic in Ireland, that’s why our forefathers needed mass rocks. But if you have God in ur life you can endure the kind of hatred being voiced here.