Fall of the Catholic Church

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119156226#Comment_119156226

The census that makes the claim that people tick the box. Are you suggesting it's forged or something?

Hotblack Desiato

78% is a long way off 89%, even if you accept that the 78% figure isn't complete bullshit. Not that might makes right.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119156252#Comment_119156252

I think people are suggesting that there’s a very large gulf between ticking a box and actually practicing a religion.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119156339#Comment_119156339

12% is long way off 78%.

So yes your saying the census completely bogus. Then should we assume all future census are also bogus. Kind of what you are saying.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119156340#Comment_119156340

They are suggesting the census is bogus. That ticking the box is irrelevant.

Its a bit ironic to be judging how religions someone is based on some arbitrary number of attendances like some kind of religious police.

For me how religious someone is or isn't is irrelevant to the issue of separating public funded schools and religion.

Flinty997

Its just weird that people feel they need to take the role of religion police to justify their position. Weird.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119156226#Comment_119156226

I’m just not sure what you’d be hoping to achieve by asking the question to be honest. 78% of their fellow citizens aren’t ticking the box in the first place. It’s the person who is filling out the census is ticking the box in each household. Each household will have varying numbers of children, or none at all, and will be ticking the box accordingly on their behalf. It’s hardly going to be a worthwhile endeavour trying to ascertain the views of a two-year old child for example as to why their parent or guardian ticked the box which meant they are included in the 78% -

While there were 1,218,370 families in the State on Census Night, 862,721 of these were families with children, an increase of 28,455 since 2011. The number of married couples with children increased by 1.7 per cent to 568,317 while the number of cohabiting couples with children increased by 25.4 per cent to 75,587. One parent families with children increased by 1.5 per cent to 189,112 in the case of mothers and 2.3 per cent to 29,705 in the case of fathers.

Children in families of cohabiting couples had a younger profile with 76.6 per cent of this family type having all children under the age of 15. This compares with just 47 per cent of married couples having all children under the age of 15. Children in one parent families were likely to have an older age profile, in particular for one parent fathers where in 73.1 per cent of families, all children were aged 15 years or over.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-cp4hf/cp4hf/fmls/

In any case it would still have no direct correlation to the percentage for the number of Catholic ethos schools which receive public funding (minor quibble btw referring to an earlier post - teachers in Catholic ethos schools are not State employees, they’re employees of the school). The fact that 89% of schools in Ireland are Catholic ethos schools, which receive public funding in the same way as every other patron body is entitled to receive public funding, has nothing whatsoever to do with whatever the numbers of people are who identify themselves as Catholic.

It has everything to do with the numbers of children in any school, the vast majority of which are Catholic schools. Because they’re Catholic ethos schools, is the reason why the schools enforce the Catholic religion. Any school, regardless of it’s ethos, has a legal obligation and a legal right, to uphold the ethos of the school. The same principle applies to Educate Together schools or any other type of school as much as it does to Catholic schools, in accordance with the Education Act -

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1998/act/51/section/15/enacted/en/html#sec15

A recent survey of 500 parents made the following findings -

As Catholic Schools Week takes place across Ireland, a survey of 500 parents entitled Articulating a new positioning for Catholic education in Ireland, has found that 72% of parents are satisfied with the choice of school for their children. It also found that 78% supported the Church having a role in continuing role in schools.

The survey also identified that 9% of parents feel that the Church should have a “much more active role” and 33% thought they Church should have “some role” in the ethos of their local school “equal to that of other community members, such as parents, principals and teachers”. Just 22% of parents indicated that the Church should have no role in the ethos of their local school. Additionally, 20% of parents thought that Catholic schools had an advantage due to their “inclusion of students from all backgrounds”.

https://catholicnews.ie/78-of-parents-support-churchs-role-in-the-ethos-of-schools/#

But since you mentioned the teachers role in all this, it’s worth looking at what religious education teachers have to say when they were surveyed recently -

Conclusion

The move away from Catholic-focused RE towards an approach that is inclusive of all religions and the non-religious perspective is enshrined in the specification for Junior Cycle RE (2019). A follow up survey of RE teachers within 3–5 years to assess the impact of the specification would be useful. With many RE teachers feeling somewhat (but not very) prepared to teach minority/non-religious students, ongoing quality Continuing Professional Development in this area is recommended.

It seems that all students who practise a religion can experience problems in school. In this context, teachers had specific concerns about students who were practising Catholics being targeted for bullying. However, some teachers consider this to be bigger than schools; if it is an issue of wider society, it cannot be left to schools to deal with alone. The experiences of those from a traditionally majority position which goes into rapid decline are a subject of some concern internationally. There was evidence from this study to support the existence of this concern in the Irish context. Given the personal and communal wellbeing implications, this needs to be taken seriously, investigated further and addressed.

Finally, the findings presented in this report only pertains to the perspectives of RE teachers. The voices of both students and teachers who practise a religious faith would add to this field of research, so that the experience of being religious in a school setting can be more deeply and broadly explored.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40839-021-00144-8

The participant profile is the least surprising bit of that study -

Participant profile

214 RE teachers participated in the study. The majority identified as Roman Catholic (85%) with 2% Church of Ireland, 5% multiple religious beliefs and 4% no religion. 66% described their religious beliefs as very important to them. 80% of participants identified as female, 20% as male, reflecting the overall gender gap in the teaching profession in Ireland (DES, 2021).

Imagining that a single statistic in the census which doesn’t examine the veracity of anyones faith or none, or that the single statistic of attendance at mass, is sufficient evidence to argue anything one way or the other, is just nonsense. Zeroing in on single statistics like that which appear to support any argument one way or the other, is misleading, and can prevent or inhibit any attempt to see the bigger picture by examining as much data as possible.

I’m not arguing that any of the above is sufficient reason to justify the continuing existence of Catholic ethos schools. I don’t need to. I know that parents or guardians will make these decisions for their own children as to how their children are to be educated in accordance with their world views, philosophy or religious beliefs.

It’s plausible that in the future the percentage of Catholic ethos schools in Ireland will drop to zero, but in order for that to happen, it will require that parents are unwilling to enrol their children in Catholic ethos schools. Still that would have no bearing on the lack of schools which are run by local authorities or other patron bodies, and that’s unlikely to change unless a lot more parents support those forms of education for their own children, rather than getting all bent out of shape because other parents don’t share their ideas for their own children.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119156374#Comment_119156374

The oul 'for me' mantra of the a la carte catholic is doing a lot of work there.

Isn't it a fundamental requirement of Catholicism that you go to mass once a week, along with all the great sexual control rules around masturbation, gay sex,contraception? Do you just pick and choose the non challenging bits to comply with, while continuing to argue for the same people to control education and health services?

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119156488#Comment_119156488

No idea. But it seems you do AND you're deciding the strict requirements needed to qualify as Catholic.

You're also arguing that being that committed to religion validates those people's control of services.

Whereas I'm saying how religious someone is shouldn't be even part of the discussion of separating state functions from religion.

That you are trying to sit in judgement of how religious someone else, in a religion you're not a member of is seems weird no?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119156566#Comment_119156566

I'm not deciding anything. It is the Catholic church deciding those rules for catholics. Do you just pick the easy ones?

downtheroad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119156566#Comment_119156566

My mother in law goes to mass every week. My brother in law never goes to mass, baptised the kids. They probably both ticked catholic on the census. They are not both catholics (in my view) - she is, he isn't.

I played basketball as a child. I don't now. I'm not a basketballer.

downtheroad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119156129#Comment_119156129

You're spot on. I know plenty who have been married in a church and recited the blurb that they'll raise any children god may give them (who writes this) in accordance with the rules of the church. Yet these people all used contraception, have homosexual friends, treat their wives as equals, and all the other things the church frowns upon. Makes no sense.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119156703#Comment_119156703

And yet you bring basketball into the conversation. Though unless you practised 5 times a week you didn't really play it as kid either.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119156681#Comment_119156681

You are the person though who is deciding that anyone who doesn’t meet your standards, is an ‘a la carte’ Catholic. I agree that it’s easy to pass judgment upon other people, but passing judgment upon other people is also something which Catholics are urged to refrain from doing, along with the rest of your ideas which it is your belief should be taught to children as behaviour which should be viewed as acceptable, in accordance with your standards, not those of their parents and teachers who are acting in loco parentis.

What you’re doing is nothing more than arguing in bad faith. It would be like me suggesting that you would condemn women who are reluctant to teach children that interfering with themselves is acceptable behaviour. I’m absolutely certain you wouldn’t pass judgment upon women who are the vast majority of teachers, who are unwilling to teach children values which are not just in conflict with their own religious beliefs, but are in conflict with the religious ethos of the school, and fundamentally in conflict with the religious beliefs of those children’s parents.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119156681#Comment_119156681

Its not the church deciding they aren't Catholics. Its you.

Its all I've got to work with. Try harder.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119156374#Comment_119156374

Well, what IS it based on then - a belief system or ticking a box?

Leroy42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119156969#Comment_119156969

So what do the church regard as a Catholic? Anything goes once you say you believe?

bad2thebone

The most peaceful and serine so called Catholic churches I've encountered were always broken down ruins in the middle of nowhere with a Sheela na gig carving at the entrance. Sometimes I wonder were they churches at all. Could they have been pagan places of worship and we're lead to believe that they were christian churches which embraced the fertility goddess, gargoyles etc

The jury's out on that one, who's to know we're lead to believe there was no pagan places of open worship up until a hundred years ago ????

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119156981#Comment_119156981

No idea. Thus far though, the census is ruled bogus, as does attending only X number of events. X being unknown.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119156988#Comment_119156988

Does it really matter. Since this thread isn't accepting the Churches rules, just what rules this thread invents to determine what is a Catholic. Thus far attendance of X number of events is a criteria.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119156193#Comment_119156193

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119157052#Comment_119157052

So you have no idea what the census means with relation to being a Catholic, but have faith that it will sort out everything....? Ok...

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119157061#Comment_119157061

Someone (not me) implied the census wasn't accurate. Bogus. I'm just pointing out the implications of that.

Thus far none of you can say what is or isn't a catholic. ...? Ok...

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119157082#Comment_119157082

Ahhh, I see what you did now!

You said the census wll give us answers - and it will - but you never said it will give us the RIGHT asnwers! Very clever :)

So we can all agree we can't rely on the census for reliable information; case closed on that one.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119157159#Comment_119157159

No I said wait see what the census. Then someone else says its bogus. Which implies all future census are equally bogus. I didn't rule it out they did.

Same with Catholic aren't really Catholics because of some arbitrary rule people here have invented. So I go ok what's the rule, they can't answer that. So the fall back here, is how the Church defines it. I mean really, you want to use how the church defines it? Really? Back to square one.

Leroy42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119157052#Comment_119157052

Yes it does. Catholics like to comment on how many there are and thus any bit where religion impacts, like school, is serving the majority.

But it is clear that even the definition of a Catholic is difficult. Its just numbers. Get them baptised and you can you that number for ever.

But in deciding policy, it is important to have facts. So next census instead of just Catholic etc, it should add Practicing Catholic, non practicing.

We would then get a better view of the actual numbers.

Flinty997

Well this thread has invalidated any census as being inaccurate not least if people self declare.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119157213#Comment_119157213

Statistically, the census can be used to prove that on average very Irish person has one testicle and one ovary in the same way it can be used to prove that 80% of the population are devout church-going catholics, so yeah - I'd say it's pretty defunct at this point and the answers it gives are pretty useless, so why you think its answers will mean anything is something I don't understand.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119157082#Comment_119157082

You're spouting some amount of complete bollox on this thread.

The census is very accurate. It accurately counts the number of people who tick the "catholic" box. It accurately counts the number of people who claim to speak Irish, too, even though they don't.

The problem is that some very strange people use both of these box-tickings in an attempt to justify enforcing their hobby horse upon everyone using tax money whether they like it or not.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119157274#Comment_119157274

I said its invalid argument to try and prove how religious someone is by your own arbitrary rules which have no meaning. Then use these invalid rules to invalidate a census which you say is invalid (now valid again) already. You are going in circles.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119157234#Comment_119157234

We wouldn’t though, as the census figures would still be based upon people’s own self-identification, and not the identity that someone else says they should identify as in accordance with that person’s standards.

I agree that in deciding policies, it’s important to have facts, and the only way to achieve that is by looking at statistics from a number of sources, and not just the census, which is something the department of education already does with the introduction of what is considered controversial by some people, the Primary Online Database -

https://www.gov.ie/en/service/66258-primary-online-database-pod/

The census is just one data source among many, that anyone implementing policies has at their disposal. That’s notwithstanding the fact that the actual numbers aren’t the only determining factor in deciding policies. Were that actually the case, there would be even less multi-denominational schools in the country, and hospital services would be even more restricted, and the services which they do provide to the public would still have to be paid for out of public funds, regardless of the numbers of religious or non-religious patients they have in attendance.

Leroy42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119157253#Comment_119157253

Not at all. What this thread, and the reality of empty churches proves is that the simple question isn't enough to draw a conclusion.

Does anybody know what constitutes a Catholic? It isn't attending Mass, although that is one of the requirements. It isn't living by the rules of the church, as can be seen by use of contraception, sex outside marriage etc.

The RCC quotes 2bn, but is that real? Religion being a part of everyday life, like schools, is based on this being a Catholic country.

But are we? It shouldn't matter of course, but it does, and these numbers are used to give weight and credibility to the argument to keep religion in schools