Fall of the Catholic Church

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119165972#Comment_119165972

How do you expect your right to freedom of religion, and it’s corollary - freedom from religion, is upheld without State involvement? The right to freedom of religion is not absolute, not even in the US, let alone Ireland.

There’s nothing to stop anyone suing the Board of Management of any school if they wanted for the reason you’re suggesting. They’re just unlikely to be successful, as this was already determined by the Courts in Campaign to Separate Church and State Ltd v Minister for Education [1998] -

Elaborating on this latter point, Barrington J said that the Constitution distinguished between religious ‘education’ and religious ‘instruction’ and that the right of a child not to attend religious instruction at a publicly funded school did not protect that child from being influenced, to some degree, by the religious ethos of the school. This approach would clearly protect the display of religious artefacts in publicly-funded schools and possibly also the public funding of the integrated curriculum, i.e. a curriculum permeated by religious values, provided this does not constitute religious instruction as such.

https://www.ihrec.ie/download/doc/gerry_whyte_paper_on_religion_and_education.doc

Freedom of religion certainly does not mean anyone can live their life free of religion and not have to support any religion through taxes. You’re also overlooking the fact that children are entitled to have the right to a religious education upheld by the State, in the same way as non-religious children are entitled to have the right to a non-religious education upheld by the State.

Everyone is obligated to pay taxes, and it’s the Government of the day will determine how public funds are to be spent. For what the Government actually do spend on education, they get incredible value for the taxpayer considering the State is obligated to provide for free primary education -

This finding was however reversed by the Supreme Court (by a majority); Kenny J, with whom Henchy and Griffin JJ agreed, emphasised that the duty laid upon the State by Article 42.4 was not to ‘provide’, but to ‘provide for’ free primary education—a distinction which he thought was brought out by the Irish version. One significant implication of this distinction was that the Constitution endorsed the existing system of denominationally controlled primary school management.

Now that’s pedantic 😬

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119166289#Comment_119166289

How do you expect your right to freedom of religion, and it’s corollary - freedom from religion, is upheld without State involvement? The right to freedom of religion is not absolute, not even in the US, let alone Ireland.

There’s nothing to stop anyone suing the Board of Management of any school if they wanted for the reason you’re suggesting. They’re just unlikely to be successful, as this was already determined by the Courts in Campaign to Separate Church and State Ltd v Minister for Education [1998] -

Elaborating on this latter point, Barrington J said that the Constitution distinguished between religious ‘education’ and religious ‘instruction’ and that the right of a child not to attend religious instruction at a publicly funded school did not protect that child from being influenced, to some degree, by the religious ethos of the school. This approach would clearly protect the display of religious artefacts in publicly-funded schools and possibly also the public funding of the integrated curriculum, i.e. a curriculum permeated by religious values, provided this does not constitute religious instruction as such.

You've exactly proven my point. If Ireland had freedom of religion, then questions about 'instruction' and 'education' would not come up (talk about hairsplitting). It's because the State is involved. If you had the 1st amendment like the US does, where the government can make no law recognizing religion, a lot of this becomes moot. And, a court ruling on a law case - which can happen in Ireland, too - has easily defined rules to follow.

It's the muddling of religion in the Constitution because there's no freedom of (or from) religion in Ireland that causes all this mess. Just remove it completely from the Constitution. Take it away, and everyone's life improves. While we're at it - that preamble's got to go.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119166312#Comment_119166312

I can’t tell if you’re misunderstanding the Establishment Clause in the first amendment which prohibits the State from establishing religion, or supporting religions, or favouring one religion over another (we have all those prohibitions in Ireland too). Funding education is not the same as funding religion or providing funding for religion, or supporting religion in any way, shape or form in law whatsoever.

Laws relating to religious freedom is really no different in the US than it is here. I don’t expect you’ll take my word for it though -

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-court-religion-idUSKBN2412FX

uptherebels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119165331#Comment_119165331

that's some amount of drivel. Maybe you can give us a breakdown of the funding the church provides for "it's" schools. The state funding church administered schools is funding them. your mental gymnastics isn't going to help you here. It is for the common good that the state provides for education it is not for the common good to allow the church to push its indoctrination on the state dime.

the problem is though that in a lot of cases there is no choice.

I'm sure the church could fund its own way, it just doesn't want to. as it would loose too much control and money. That you lot aren't calling for/refuse to call for that, so that the "state would be effectively shut out from having any input" tells us everything we need to know.

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One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119166421#Comment_119166421

I already explained it to you? The schools Boards of Management operate on a voluntary basis in schools which are the property of the Church. Funding provided by the State is provided for education in the same way as it is provided to every other patron body besides just the Catholic Bishops of Ireland who are the Trustees of the majority of Catholic schools in Ireland.

That’s a pretty broad brush you’re attempting to tar people with the “you lot” stuff, but suffice to say you’re wrong in any case, as the Church is supportive of measures to divest schools, and it’s the Department of Education is dragging their heels on the issue and blocking every attempt to establish new schools -

https://www.rte.ie/news/2022/0307/1284755-schools-divesting-nenagh/

It was pointed out already in the thread that the Church has no qualms about divestment as they’re quite likely to make a considerable profit from both the sale and lease of existing property which they own -

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2022/06/04/the-catholic-churchs-billion-euro-land-sale-and-its-just-getting-started/

https://www.breakingnews.ie/amp/ireland/government-will-pay-church-to-rent-schools-that-become-multi-denominational-1272633.html

deravarra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119166031#Comment_119166031

Oh what a laugh. What percentage of your tax goes towards any sort of religious education? I would hazard very little. You'd probably give more to any other charity than goes towards religious education in schools.

Try harder. You're doing a spectacular job of failing!

deravarra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119166068#Comment_119166068

You are quite confused there boss!

Freedom of religion is also freedom from religion. You just cannot walk into a catholic school and insist everything changes just for you. Perhaps stop being lazy and find a school that suits your needs.

Taxes that pays salaries in church schools? Miniscule amount tbh, if and where that happens. And I am sure your contribution wouldn't even buy a candle for an easter or christmas celebration.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119165522#Comment_119165522

What viable alternative would that be then?

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119165566#Comment_119165566

What alternatives? 89% of primary schools are Catholic and most of the remainder are Church of Ireland.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119165566#Comment_119165566

This nonsense about parents being lazy is idiotic and offensive.

Where I live - a fairly large Dublin suburb - there is one very large Catholic school for boys, one very large Catholic school for girls, and one small co-ed Church of Ireland school. That's it. No ET. All of the Educate Together schools in adjoining areas are full with children from within their catchment areas. We're obviously not within the catchment area of those schools so would be bottom of the enrolment list. There is no alternative. How dare you call me and people like me lazy!

About 12 years ago the Dept of Education recognised the need to expand the number of school places in this area, instead of allowing an ET to be set up they chose to just extend the existing Catholic schools. Parents in the area had absolutely no input into this decision.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119165852#Comment_119165852

De jure, Ireland has freedom of religion, but de facto it doesn't. Hence 94% of state funded primary schools having a religious "ethos".

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119166009#Comment_119166009

There's the billion-plus euro of Catholic Church child rape compensation paid for by taxes, for starters. Then there's the rent-free use of state-funded schools for indoctrination.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119166752#Comment_119166752

Is this the part where we pretend that we haven’t had this conversation numerous times before already where I present what I consider are viable alternatives, and you shoot them all down giving an arms length list of reasons why they’re not viable for you personally?

I don’t know in explicit detail all your personal circumstances, so any suggestions of viable alternatives are based upon the alternatives that other parents have made work for themselves and their children. You don’t even want to entertain the alternatives, so let’s just skip it and not waste each other’s time.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119166252#Comment_119166252

Why are you abusing the census figure of 78% (claimed) catholic affiliation to attempt to justify the RCC's control of 89% of primary schools?

Many of those box-tickers are not parents or their children are well beyond school age.

If you want to look at what happens when adults actually have a free choice, reflect on the fact that church weddings are now a minority of weddings in Ireland. They'd clearly prefer non-religious schools for their eventual kids also but that option is simply not there.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119166289#Comment_119166289

Total and utter baloney.

Of course I have a right to not support religion with my taxes. Ireland is not a theocracy. Well, it's not supposed to be...

There is no clause in the Constitution which obliges the State to provide or provide for religious education.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119166630#Comment_119166630

In non-fee-charging schools, all of the salaries are paid for by the taxpayer. 94% of these schools have a religious ethos. So yes, taxes absolutely do pay salaries in church schools. I don't know who you think you're fooling with this blatant nonsense.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119166844#Comment_119166844

This braindead nonsense again. There's no point in applying to have my childen enrolled in schools which are oversubscribed and where they're bottom of the enrolment list because of living outside of the catchment area. Try again.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119166947#Comment_119166947

The point I was responding to was that freedom of religion does not mean anyone can live their life free of religion and not have to support any religion through taxes.

Freedom of religion has nothing to do with anyones taxes, nor does it mean anyone can live their life free of religion. It simply means everyone has the right to practice his or her religion, or no religion at all.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119167029#Comment_119167029

Try again.

Why should I bother? I’ve already explained that we’ve been over this numerous times and you shoot down every suggestion which I consider viable based upon the experiences of other parents and their children. It appears you don’t actually want alternatives, or you’d have thought of them and put them into action yourself already. Let’s be honest you’re in a far better position than I am to come up with alternatives that would suit you and your own personal circumstances.

deravarra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119166797#Comment_119166797

So, your retorts now mention idiotic, braindead, etc.

Come back with some manners.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119167075#Comment_119167075

Pointless waffle.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119167160#Comment_119167160

I'll be polite when you recognise my right to be an equal citizen despite being not a catholic - and not a moment before.

I note that you are not capable of making any coherent response to the points I raised.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119166926#Comment_119166926

Abusing the census figures??? The figures are there to be used Hotblack, that's the whole point of having a census. And its for sure not up to you to decide how any one uses them.

Why do you think that such slow progress is being made on diversification? Its all because the Catholic Church is blocking it? Bulls**t. If the 78% of the population decided to that they wanted changes and diversification, it would have happened a long time ago,,,but it hasn't happened because the majority don't want change. Its that simple. If 78% of population join together, for any reason, there's nothing the Govt, Church etc. could do to stop them. Just because more people are nowadays opting for non-religious ceremony's , or indeed in many cases ( and not just Catholic's either) no official ceremony of any kind, is no indication of how they will want their eventual children educated. And that's obvious also from the census, where the 78% listed their religion as Christian, when they had the option of ticking "NONE", which a relatively small % ticked. For the shortage of non-religious school places, if the Govt / Dept of Education stepped up the building of new schools, that would sort that out.

Hotblack Desiato

"What we have we hold."

They control 89% of primary schools even though only 78% of box-tickers (who are largely pensioners) tick that box.

Give it over, stop forcing your religion on kids whose parents don't want it. Using schools to do this is wrong. You have churches, use them.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119167547#Comment_119167547

Well that’s clearly not true, but I don’t expect you to be polite in any case. It also doesn’t matter whether or not anyone else recognises your equal status, what matters is that your equal status is recognised already in Irish Law which recognises everyone in Irish society as being of equal status, regardless of whether or not they’re a taxpayer.

That seems to go over the few people’s heads who imagine that just because they pay tax means they can dictate how whatever they pay in tax is spent by Government. It’s an empty, meaningless and frankly spiteful threat often used by a minority of people who imagine it’s their taxes gives them some sort of influence over other people, when in reality it does no such thing.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119167617#Comment_119167617

Even if only 1% ticked the box, it wouldn’t make any difference to the 89% of primary schools owned and controlled by the Church. They would still exist, and the education of any children in attendance would still have to be funded by public funds. The only thing that would make any difference is if the numbers of children in attendance dropped to 1%, and the schools were no longer viable.

The State would still be faced with the same issue of providing for education, only now it would mean even greater funding would need to be provided to build schools that belong to the State, as well as all the other costs incurred by the State in the actual management and running of the thousands of schools required to replace the schools owned and run by the Church.

At best what could be achieved is a moderate increase in multi-denominational schools, because the Dept of Education doesn’t appear keen at all on the idea of non-denominational schools.

Hotblack Desiato

More pointless waffle.

ILoveYourVibes

When they pay women from the maggie laundries ....from their OWN pocket ..maybe i will even consider them human...prolly not tho

uptherebels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119166484#Comment_119166484

What did you explain? Boards of management operating on a voluntary basis is not the church funding its own schools. So again I'll ask you to provide a breakdown of church funding of schools.

The church is supportive is divestment? Remind is, how many schools that weren't due to close because of low numbers, have been divested?

So why aren't you lot calling for the church to fund its own way? I mean it's an easy question, don't know why you would attempt to dodge it.

Every new school is blocked by the department of education? You will of course be providing evidence

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119166623#Comment_119166623

A non-zero percentage What percentage do you think should go to religious education?

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119167858#Comment_119167858

And the state gets its money from the taxpayer, yes? Directly in the case of taxes deducted from employees, indirectly from the multitude of taxe's imposed by the Govt, everyone pays VAT PRSI etc. And that's how state education is funded. ( Plus health, etc) The Church funds its day to day running costs from money received from its parishioners. State funding has nothing to do with that. When they do receive funding, its for religious who teach, or nurse etc. And that money would still have to be paid, regardless of who holds the post.