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The NMH at St. Vincents

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    #422
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    The nuns control SVHG. They are its shareholders. And i dont think i ever said that there would be nuns on the board of the NMH. but it will be the nuns pulling the strings of the members appointed by SVHG. To think otherwise is naive.

    They own it; the Board control it. That's what Boards are for, it's what the Board of the new hospital will do. To think otherwise is naive...


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    #423
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,458 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Absolam wrote: »
    They own it; the Board control it. That's what Boards are for, it's what the Board of the new hospital will do. To think otherwise is naive...

    and they control the board. from the SVHG charter
    The "independent" non-executive directors shall serve for a fixed term of three years and may be re-appointed, by the shareholders, for further terms.

    the shareholders being the nuns. so is 11 out 17 who serve at the pleasure of the nuns. I find it funny that even SVHG put independent in quotes.


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    #424
    infogiver
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭infogiver


    Well done posters!
    RTÉ 6 One news reporting that the Board are immediately reviewing the agreement and will most likely pull out now, so its back to the drawing board for another 10 years or so.
    Well done!


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    #425
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,504 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    I can not understand how: no matter what the safeguards, guidelines, golden locks or what ever the optics of this never occurred to the religious order or the HSE. The sheer lack of cop on involved in the whole episode is staggering.

    The HSE though they were going to get a cheap way of providing a hospital in an area of the country with the most expensive land.


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    #426
    qo2cj1dsne8y4k
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,646 ✭✭✭✭qo2cj1dsne8y4k


    Nuns have no business being anywhere near pregnant women or babies.


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    #427
    oppenheimer1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,084 ✭✭✭oppenheimer1


    mariaalice wrote: »
    I can not understand how: no matter what the safeguards, guidelines, golden locks or what ever the optics of this never occurred to the religious order or the HSE. The sheer lack of cop on involved in the whole episode is staggering.

    The HSE though they were going to get a cheap way of providing a hospital in an area of the country with the most expensive land.
    What is wrong exactly with the state trying to save money? Would the money not be better spent on ultra sound scanners and wards than land?

    Canning the hospital is hardly in the best interest of women either, and that now looks to be the choice.


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    #428
    infogiver
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭infogiver


    LexieOnRale wrote: »
    Nuns have no business being anywhere near pregnant women or babies.

    Indeed! Despite the fact that they've run nearly every hospital in the country ever since we've been a country and there are only 5 other countries in the entire world with a better standard of maternal care then Ireland! Lets fix it even though it's not broken! That's what we do! We're Irish!


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    #429
    qo2cj1dsne8y4k
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,646 ✭✭✭✭qo2cj1dsne8y4k


    infogiver wrote: »
    Indeed! Despite the fact that they've run nearly every hospital in the country ever since we've been a country and there are only 5 other countries in the entire world with a better standard of maternal care then Ireland! Lets fix it even though it's not broken! That's what we do! We're Irish!
    Were one of the only first world countries who'd leave a woman to die rather than carry out a nessessary termination, or make a family apply to the courts so as they could switch off their daughters lifesupport while a foetus lay rotting inside her


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    #430
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,664 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    infogiver wrote: »
    Indeed! Despite the fact that they've run nearly every hospital in the country ever since we've been a country and there are only 5 other countries in the entire world with a better standard of maternal care then Ireland! Lets fix it even though it's not broken! That's what we do! We're Irish!

    Remind us what killed Savita Halappanavar? A world class maternity system?
    Or a broken one?

    Or do we keep telling ourselves we have a great system by excluding all the times it goes wrong?


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    #431
    infogiver
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭infogiver


    LexieOnRale wrote: »
    Were one of the only first world countries who'd leave a woman to die rather than carry out a nessessary termination, or make a family apply to the courts so as they could switch off their daughters lifesupport while a foetus lay rotting inside her

    6th best country in the world to be pregnant and have a baby in according to WHO.
    US where Planned Parenthood alone carried out 300000 abortions last year is in the same league as the Congo and Yemen.
    But no, abortion on demand is much better for mother and baby, obviously.


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    #432
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,458 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    infogiver wrote: »
    6th best country in the world to be pregnant and have a baby in according to WHO.
    US where Planned Parenthood alone carried out 300000 abortions last year is in the same league as the Congo and Yemen.
    But no, abortion on demand is much better for mother and baby, obviously.

    your attempt to draw a parallel there is pathetic.


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    #433
    infogiver
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭infogiver


    volchitsa wrote: »
    Remind us what killed Savita Halappanavar? A world class maternity system?
    Or a broken one?

    Or do we keep telling ourselves we have a great system by excluding all the times it goes wrong?

    Well you don't have to worry about it ever happening again now, do you?
    The group that have been running St Vincents Hospital for about 150 years now, a hospital that trained nurses who were headhunted all over the world, probably won't be running the new maternity hospital now and it looks as if we'll have to find an extra 1/2 billion euro to buy some land before we even start building, but sure lookit, it's not as if we already owe 46 billion....Oh wait...


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    #434
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,664 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    infogiver wrote: »
    Well you don't have to worry about it ever happening again now, do you?
    The group that have been running St Vincents Hospital for about 150 years now, a hospital that trained nurses who were headhunted all over the world, probably won't be running the new maternity hospital now and it looks as if we'll have to find an extra 1/2 billion euro to buy some land before we even start building, but sure lookit, it's not as if we already owe 46 billion....Oh wait...

    Wait, I thought the official story yesterday was that they weren't going to be running it, that they only owned the buildings.

    Was that a lie?


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    #435
    infogiver
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭infogiver


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    your attempt to draw a parallel there is pathetic.

    How is it pathetic? It's a fact! What you can't argue with is facts. It's pointless. All the data is there. Today is Friday. Ireland is one of the safest places in the world to have a baby, to be pregnant, to be a baby.
    The US is as safe as the Democratic Republic of Congo.
    That's it.


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    #436
    infogiver
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭infogiver


    volchitsa wrote: »
    Wait, I thought the official story yesterday was that they weren't going to be running it, that they only owned the buildings.

    Was that a lie?

    It doesn't matter now. You won. You got what you wanted. No hospital on the grounds of St Vincent's. Well done.
    It just goes to show what people power can do.


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    #437
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,946 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    infogiver wrote: »
    6th best country in the world to be pregnant and have a baby in according to WHO.
    US where Planned Parenthood alone carried out 300000 abortions last year is in the same league as the Congo and Yemen.
    But no, abortion on demand is much better for mother and baby, obviously.

    We get it, the Trump administration has been a trainwreck.


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    #438
    qo2cj1dsne8y4k
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,646 ✭✭✭✭qo2cj1dsne8y4k


    Ironic that the reason they can buy the land in the most expensive part of the city is probably from all the babies that were sold on to wealthy Americans while their mothers were kept under lock and key in an institution.


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    #439
    infogiver
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭infogiver


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    We get it, the Trump administration has been a trainwreck.

    Are you not going to celebrate this victory PopePalatine?
    No nuns in the delivery room in the new maternity hospital! Onwards and upwards!


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    #440
    Call me Al
    Registered Users Posts: 3,028 ✭✭✭Call me Al


    infogiver wrote: »
    6th best country in the world to be pregnant and have a baby in according to WHO.
    US where Planned Parenthood alone carried out 300000 abortions last year is in the same league as the Congo and Yemen.
    But no, abortion on demand is much better for mother and baby, obviously.
    Indeed... not one of those other countries 1-5 have legalised abortion?
    I've also seen official surveys that have ranked Ireland 20th as the safest place for women giving birth.


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    #441
    infogiver
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭infogiver


    Call me Al wrote: »
    Indeed... not one of those other countries 1-5 have legalised abortion?
    I've also seen official surveys that have ranked Ireland 20th as the safest place for women giving birth.

    Well if you search and search and search you'll eventually find some report to back up your theory.
    I'm very lazy.
    The WHO is good enough for me.


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    #442
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,946 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    infogiver wrote: »
    Are you not going to celebrate this victory PopePalatine?
    No nuns in the delivery room in the new maternity hospital! Onwards and upwards!
    Don't you have anything better to do than crap out strawmen? Oh, never mind:
    infogiver wrote: »
    Well if you search and search and search you'll eventually find some report to back up your theory.
    I'm very lazy.
    The WHO is good enough for me.


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    #443
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    infogiver wrote: »
    Are you not going to celebrate this victory PopePalatine?
    No nuns in the delivery room in the new maternity hospital! Onwards and upwards!

    You seem upset they won't be involved. A fully independent, secular health system is a good thing isn't it?


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    #444
    Wintergirl
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 19 ✭Wintergirl


    Samaris wrote: »
    The problem is that a lot of people in Ireland want basic social services, by which I mean education and medicine, taken out of the hands of the religious orders in light of two decades of religious scandals involving..well, education and medicine, particularly against the most vulnerable people in Irish society, spanning back to the founding of the State.

    The second problem is that, having been found culpable of a range of horrendous actions against vulnerable people, the Church hasn't finished paying reparations, overall behaved pretty badly in terms of making up for their actions against many people still alive today that suffered through it's less-than-Christian care and the IRRC appears to be getting out of it rather lightly. This ends up with a maternity hospital that will again be owned in most part by an order of nuns who will have a great deal to say in the running of the place and an awful lot of people no longer trust religious orders to be having anything to do with vulnerable pregnant women and their babies.

    While it's true that this order specifically may not have done anything and may not even be inclined to enforce rules in such a way that we have more deaths of pregnant women desperately in need of a procedure the Catholic Church disapproves of, we have seen women die -recently- under a similar order with similar ideals and the vast majority of the population found it shameful. That the Irish State is allowing this certainly comes across as a ridiculously, egregiously, insulting and bad idea. Religious orders have failed in the duties they took up and shown little inclination to truly regret it or fully accept what damage they did and were allowed to do. This is a gesture of putting trust in another such religious order without the Church having really cleaned up its own backyard in terms of its abuses of power over the vulnerable.


    Please say offer abortion if thats what you mean and stop referring to it as a procedure.

    What about the abuses in the Garda Siochana of the vulnerable, are we to disband the whole organisation because of a few bad apples.

    What about adults with mental health disabilities being abused today and the HSE turning a blind eye, are we to disband the HSE.What about the young woman abused in State/foster care,the nuns weren't running this private home either.

    I don't see much going on either, the owners of the land have agreed to let the government build a maternity hospital there.The Government through us the taxpayers own the land RTE is selling for seventy five million euros, why don't we just take that land and build a hospital there and let the religious order keep their own land so they can sell it for seventy five million to developers.In fact maybe the nuns should just knock down the existing St Vincents hospital and turn the whole site into a concrete jungle, think what they could sell houses and apartments there for.


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    #445
    elperello
    Registered Users Posts: 15,121 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    oppenheimer1 wrote: »
    It's worth about 150m and the hospital trust/govt will get the money.

    The money from the sale had been earmarked to fund 50% of the cost of the new build at Vincent's

    Thanks for that info.

    So the sale of the existing NMH (Holles Street) brings in 150m thus reducing the cost to the exchequer of the new hospital to 150m.

    Surely that allows the State enough lee-way to buy out the nuns interest in the St Vincents site?


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    #446
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Wintergirl wrote: »
    Please say offer abortion if thats what you mean and stop referring to it as a procedure.

    What about the abuses in the Garda Siochana of the vulnerable, are we to disband the whole organisation because of a few bad apples.

    What about adults with mental health disabilities being abused today and the HSE turning a blind eye, are we to disband the HSE.What about the young woman abused in State/foster care,the nuns weren't running this private home either.

    I don't see much going on either, the owners of the land have agreed to let the government build a maternity hospital there.The Government through us the taxpayers own the land RTE is selling for seventy five million euros, why don't we just take that land and build a hospital there and let the religious order keep their own land so they can sell it for seventy five million to developers.In fact maybe the nuns should just knock down the existing St Vincents hospital and turn the whole site into a concrete jungle, think what they could sell houses and apartments there for.

    I don't think anyone suggested actually disbanding the orders......


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    #447
    qo2cj1dsne8y4k
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,646 ✭✭✭✭qo2cj1dsne8y4k


    Wintergirl wrote: »
    Please say offer abortion if thats what you mean and stop referring to it as a procedure.

    What about the abuses in the Garda Siochana of the vulnerable, are we to disband the whole organisation because of a few bad apples.

    What about adults with mental health disabilities being abused today and the HSE turning a blind eye, are we to disband the HSE.What about the young woman abused in State/foster care,the nuns weren't running this private home either.

    I don't see much going on either, the owners of the land have agreed to let the government build a maternity hospital there.The Government through us the taxpayers own the land RTE is selling for seventy five million euros, why don't we just take that land and build a hospital there and let the religious order keep their own land so they can sell it for seventy five million to developers.In fact maybe the nuns should just knock down the existing St Vincents hospital and turn the whole site into a concrete jungle, think what they could sell houses and apartments there for.
    A few bad apples?!? Are you actually on the same planet as the rest of us. I think it's safe to assume the Catholic Church is not child friendly, between the priests and the nuns. Years of abuse in schools, industrial schools, reformatories etc. The huge amount of laundries and the treatment of women for decades, and it's a "few bad eggs?" Are you serious?! There's absolutely no remorse, not even from the Vatican. And if those that didn't partake in it helped cover it up or move abusers on putting more children at risk they're just as bad


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    #448
    Call me Al
    Registered Users Posts: 3,028 ✭✭✭Call me Al


    Wintergirl wrote: »
    Please say offer abortion if thats what you mean and stop referring to it as a procedure.

    What about the abuses in the Garda Siochana of the vulnerable, are we to disband the whole organisation because of a few bad apples.

    What about adults with mental health disabilities being abused today and the HSE turning a blind eye, are we to disband the HSE.What about the young woman abused in State/foster care,the nuns weren't running this private home either.

    I don't see much going on either, the owners of the land have agreed to let the government build a maternity hospital there.The Government through us the taxpayers own the land RTE is selling for seventy five million euros, why don't we just take that land and build a hospital there and let the religious order keep their own land so they can sell it for seventy five million to developers.In fact maybe the nuns should just knock down the existing St Vincents hospital and turn the whole site into a concrete jungle, think what they could sell houses and apartments there for.

    Well it's not as if they haven't tried and suceeded to raise funds on the publicly funded privately owned Vincents Hospital before.
    Transparency isn't the first word that springs to mind when I hear "St Vincents HG".


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    #449
    Wintergirl
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 19 ✭Wintergirl


    If you want to ban them from participating in the provision of Health and Education services and make Irish society secular then that is effectively disbanding them.I don't have a problem with attending a hospital run by nuns, I would prefer to attend a hospital run by nuns than one by private companies because they are there to make money and they will do anything to maximise their profits.

    Isn't Tallaght hospital under the control of the Protestant ethos, I can't see the Protestants being too happy to relinquish any control in relation to education or health for the members of their faith.They don't want a secular country at all.

    The nuns aren't preventing abortions being carried out in irish hospitals, the Irish people are, they don't want abortion on demand and they will never vote for that, its nothing to do with religion for a lot of people, atheists will vote against abortion too for moral reasons that have nothing to do with any ethos.

    The nuns and priests took in the children nobody wanted, the families certainly didn't because a lot of the children were probably born as a result of incest.The State knew what was going on in the industrial schools, they probably had inspectors reports on file and they did nothing either.The Gardai certainly knew, they returned escapees to the industrial schools, out of sight and out of mind, that suited officialdom perfectly well.

    Who issued the passports for the babies travelling to the States, was that the Passport office I wonder.Whose responsibility was it to insure the children couldn't travel.

    No point in putting the blame for what went on on the shoulders of a elderly women and men.I think the nuns did amazing work to be honest, women owe their education to the Mercy order for example, they built schools in disadvantaged areas so poor women could learn.They have an impressive record in building hospitals and they provided free care to everyone who needed it.What have the priests got to show for their existence, private schools for the wealthy for the most part.


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    #450
    InTheTrees
    Registered Users Posts: 9,900 ✭✭✭InTheTrees


    LexieOnRale wrote: »
    I think it's safe to assume the Catholic Church is not child friendly, between the priests and the nuns. Years of abuse in schools, industrial schools, reformatories etc. The huge amount of laundries and the treatment of women for decades, and it's a "few bad eggs?" Are you serious?!

    Exactly.

    I must say I thought we'd moved on from those days, I really don't understand why the catholic church gets to preside over a maternity hospital.


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    #451
    InTheTrees
    Registered Users Posts: 9,900 ✭✭✭InTheTrees


    Wintergirl wrote: »
    If you want to ban them from participating in the provision of Health and Education services and make Irish society secular then that is effectively disbanding them.

    Of course it isn't disbanding them. Taking religion out of healthcare does not make ireland secular. There's plenty of nuns in convents and monks in monasteries that have nothing to do with providing services to children.


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