The NMH at St. Vincents

oppenheimer1

InTheTrees wrote: »

Exactly.

I must say I thought we'd moved on from those days, I really don't understand why the catholic church gets to preside over a maternity hospital.

Eh because they own it. Please keep up.

jonsnow

Wintergirl wrote: »

What about the abuses in the Garda Siochana of the vulnerable, are we to disband the whole organisation because of a few bad apples.

Very poor example. The "few bad apples" narrative in the Gardai has been debunked and everyone even the government and the gardai themselves are now admitting there are systemic problems in the force hence a "patten style" review and the possible disbandment of the force as we know it. It may keep the name but it will essentially be a very different organisation.

and abortion will come to ireland eventually.It may continue to buck the trend but not forever.

PopePalpatine

The nuns and priests took in the children nobody wanted, the families certainly didn't because a lot of the children were probably born as a result of incest.The State knew what was going on in the industrial schools, they probably had inspectors reports on file and they did nothing either.The Gardai certainly knew, they returned escapees to the industrial schools, out of sight and out of mind, that suited officialdom perfectly well.

Who issued the passports for the babies travelling to the States, was that the Passport office I wonder.Whose responsibility was it to insure the children couldn't travel.

No point in putting the blame for what went on on the shoulders of a elderly women and men.I think the nuns did amazing work to be honest, women owe their education to the Mercy order for example, they built schools in disadvantaged areas so poor women could learn.They have an impressive record in building hospitals and they provided free care to everyone who needed it.What have the priests got to show for their existence, private schools for the wealthy for the most part.

Why were they the children (and women) no-one wanted? Why did the State do nothing about the abuse they suffered? Why did the Gardai return escapees to industrial "schools" and the Magdalene laundries? Why did the passport office turn a blind eye to the sale of babies overseas (hey, I thought those nuns weren't interested in profits)?

I'll give you two clues: "culture" & "deference". I'll let you work out the rest.

jonsnow

When I first heard Harris talking about a golden share I thought "hmm thats an expression I never heard before sounds like a made up term a politician would use which sounds authoritative but has no real power or effect". Looks like I was right.

Harris has been tweeting and telling everyone on radio shows that the hospital will have complete clinical independence from the catholic church but it looks like he forgot to tell the catholic church.

The planned move of the National Maternity Hospital to a religious-owned site at St Vincent’s Hospital is in jeopardy after the board of St Vincent’s said it plans to review the status of the project.
The board says the decision is prompted by “controversy and misinformation that has arisen in recent times” and the views expressed by Minister for Health Simon Harris and other TDs

Hannibal_Smith

Wintergirl wrote: »

If you want to ban them from participating in the provision of Health and Education services and make Irish society secular then that is effectively disbanding them.I don't have a problem with attending a hospital run by nuns, I would prefer to attend a hospital run by nuns than one by private companies because they are there to make money and they will do anything to maximise their profits.

Isn't Tallaght hospital under the control of the Protestant ethos, I can't see the Protestants being too happy to relinquish any control in relation to education or health for the members of their faith.They don't want a secular country at all.

The nuns aren't preventing abortions being carried out in irish hospitals, the Irish people are, they don't want abortion on demand and they will never vote for that, its nothing to do with religion for a lot of people, atheists will vote against abortion too for moral reasons that have nothing to do with any ethos.

The nuns and priests took in the children nobody wanted, the families certainly didn't because a lot of the children were probably born as a result of incest.The State knew what was going on in the industrial schools, they probably had inspectors reports on file and they did nothing either.The Gardai certainly knew, they returned escapees to the industrial schools, out of sight and out of mind, that suited officialdom perfectly well.

Who issued the passports for the babies travelling to the States, was that the Passport office I wonder.Whose responsibility was it to insure the children couldn't travel.

No point in putting the blame for what went on on the shoulders of a elderly women and men.I think the nuns did amazing work to be honest, women owe their education to the Mercy order for example, they built schools in disadvantaged areas so poor women could learn.They have an impressive record in building hospitals and they provided free care to everyone who needed it.What have the priests got to show for their existence, private schools for the wealthy for the most part.

Yeah, if only Christine Buckley was still alive, you could ask her how amazing the nuns were.

Sue Pa Key Pa

It's the State paying an annual rent to these feckers that I have issue with. We will be honouring a financial agreement with a party that has reneged on a financial agreement with us.

Hannibal_Smith

infogiver wrote: »

Well done posters!
RTÉ 6 One news reporting that the Board are immediately reviewing the agreement and will most likely pull out now, so its back to the drawing board for another 10 years or so.
Well done!

Good! I'm delighted a spanner was thrown in the works. And I'm speaking as someone who was in the throes of labour in a corridor in Holles Street with a curtain shielding me from the world while people were shoving rods up my hoo haa as others wondered in to get equipment for other women. Was it dignified? No. Was there a crying need for better services? Yes. Would I want those better services knowing the Catholic Church would have a hold on it? Absolutely not! There is a need for better maternity services, but there is no need to stick two fingers to all of our citizens who have suffered at the the hands of the church. That is selling your soul to the absolute devil.

ohnonotgmail

infogiver wrote: »

How is it pathetic? It's a fact! What you can't argue with is facts. It's pointless. All the data is there. Today is Friday. Ireland is one of the safest places in the world to have a baby, to be pregnant, to be a baby.
The US is as safe as the Democratic Republic of Congo.
That's it.

please point to the facts that show that planned parenthood providing abortion is the reason that maternity care in the US is so bad.

jonsnow

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

please point to the facts that show that planned parenthood providing abortion is the reason that maternity care in the US is so bad.

its largely to do with the Us being such an unequal society. When I lived in San Francisco there was a bus whose route ran through the city from one of the wealthiest areas to one of the poorest.On the bus there was a campaign which had posters of the mortality rates for babies in one and the other. The poorest area (Hunters Point) was third world levels.

Systemic racism also plays a huge part, African american women in the states are under huge pressure from US society on a daily basis. Even very highly educated black women Professors, lawyers and doctors have terrible mortality rates when giving birth. Higher than poor white women. Because of all the stress they have been under cumulatively all of their lives. I imagine there is a similar effect for other minorities.

Abortions probably prevent the statistics being worse than they are for children being born in the states.

ohnonotgmail

jonsnow wrote: »

its largely to do with the Us being such an unequal society. When I lived in San Francisco there was a bus whose route ran through the city from one of the wealthiest areas to one of the poorest.On the bus there was a campaign which had posters of the mortality rates for babies in one and the other. The poorest area (Hunters Point) was third world levels.

Systemic racism also plays a huge part, African american women in the states are under huge pressure from US society on a daily basis. Even very highly educated black women Professors, lawyers and doctors have terrible mortality rates when giving birth. Higher than poor white women. Because of all the stress they have been under cumulatively all of their lives. I imagine there is a similar effect for other minorities.

Abortions probably prevent the statistics being worse than they are for children being born in the states.

That is not the point that infogiver was trying to make. I am aware of the reasons why matenity care is so poor in the US. Those reasons do not include the availability of abortion.

gctest50

gctest50


https://my.uplift.ie/petitions/block-sisters-of-chairty-as-sole-owners-of-national-maternity-hospital?bucket



Petition to block takeover

Quote: whisky_galore

How is an online petition supposed to block anything?

Dunno

infogiver

Online petitions are the modern lazy equivalent of writing a "strongly worded letter" of the type people used to send to Radio Eireann to complain about Gay Byrne allowing Nell McCafferty or somesuch on to "blaspheme" on his daily show.
If you check out the website change.org it is a veritable graveyard for petitions that got a good start but died of starvation not long afterward

: infogiver

Well done posters!
RTÉ 6 One news reporting that the Board are immediately reviewing the agreement and will most likely pull out now..........
Well done!

jonsnow

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

That is not the point that infogiver was trying to make. I am aware of the reasons why matenity care is so poor in the US. Those reasons do not include the availability of abortion.

I agree

Gunmonkey

infogiver wrote: »

Indeed! Despite the fact that they've run nearly every hospital in the country ever since we've been a country and there are only 5 other countries in the entire world with a better standard of maternal care then Ireland! Lets fix it even though it's not broken! That's what we do! We're Irish!

But is that because of the nuns influence or the high quality of training our nurses and doctors receive from the state? Since, as you point out, no model of modern Irish health practices without religious influence exists we cannot ascertain where the strength lies; either the religious or academic side.

But that also calls into question why we are only 6th? Unless 1-5 are also countries whose medical facilities are operated by religious orders it begs the question: what are they doing we aren't, as we should be even with them in terms of medical knowledge/application but also bumped up the rankings via our stalwart nuns?

Beyondgone

I've no experience of nuns. My wife tho, she was in one of their laundries, and my Mammy went to one of their boarding schools. Neither of them have a good word to say about Nuns. So I am going to defer to their greater level of experience and say Nuns are c?nts. The Nuns should build their own hospital, and only treat priests. Each to their own and all that.

pilly

infogiver wrote:

It doesn't matter now. You won. You got what you wanted. No hospital on the grounds of St Vincent's. Well done. It just goes to show what people power can do.

But sure Ireland is a perfectly safe place to have a baby so what harm? Nothing will change by not building on the bitches land.

Hotblack Desiato

Wintergirl wrote: »

The nuns aren't preventing abortions being carried out in irish hospitals, the Irish people are, they don't want abortion on demand and they will never vote for that

That must be a fantastic crystal ball you have there.

its nothing to do with religion for a lot of people, atheists will vote against abortion too for moral reasons that have nothing to do with any ethos.

So I keep hearing. From religious people.

TOss Sweep

infogiver wrote: »

The US is as safe as the Democratic Republic of Congo.
That's it.

Absolute nonsense. You want to show us some evidence that the US is a dangerous place to raise a child. Or are you saying this due to your anti abortion agenda?

I live in the US and the US health care system is one of the best in the world and so far for me is far better than Ireland. It does come at a cost due to health insurance but that is another days argument but don't let the anti abortion agenda get in the way of you comparing the US to a 3rd world country when it comes to raising a child or infant.

infogiver

pilly wrote: »

But sure Ireland is a perfectly safe place to have a baby so what harm? Nothing will change by not building on the bitches land.

As a taxpayer I was getting the land for to build my hospital on for nothing.
Now the bitches have said "f**k off and build your poxy hospital somewhere else"
So now I have to buy land and build a hospital.
All because of your bitching and moaning.

Mr.Wemmick

Wintergirl wrote: »

No point in putting the blame for what went on on the shoulders of a elderly women and men. I think the nuns did amazing work to be honest, women owe their education to the Mercy order for example, they built schools in disadvantaged areas so poor women could learn.They have an impressive record in building hospitals and they provided free care to everyone who needed it.What have the priests got to show for their existence, private schools for the wealthy for the most part.

This isn't about the good people who work/worked in religious orders at all. No doubt there were/are many who were kind and helped people, but these very organizations in which they work have failed good people everywhere by not being accountable for crimes and owning up to what they did wrong. They need to heal the wounds of the past and do what is right, but they're not and so the good people working within religions have a very small voice and are not being heard. Yes, the nuns were the ones who provided the care, but through these services they delivered the cruelty we now know to be fact. Again, any good that was/is done is lost in the cruelty they continue to exhibit to the victims of those crimes up and down the country.

It is not the fault of people/posters on boards calling for justice or expecting fairness & adherence to clear guidelines between church and state, but the fault of the organizations themselves for creating the on-going stink of guilt and wrong doing which they consistently fail to address and put right.

Penn

infogiver wrote: »

As a taxpayer I was getting the land for to build my hospital on for nothing.
Now the bitches have said "f**k off and build your poxy hospital somewhere else"
So now I have to buy land and build a hospital.
All because of your bitching and moaning.

If it was true that the nuns would have had absolutely no power to influence anything about the running of the hospital or ensuring the hospital has their ethos stamped all over it, then they should have no issue with letting the government build the hospital on their land regardless. If they're truly getting nothing out of it, they could step aside and let the hospital go ahead.

But they won't. Because they were getting something out of it. And considering their history and what they owe the government, it's not the fault of people for pointing this out, it's the fault of the nuns and the government for making such a stupid decision.

Again, if the nuns were to have no involvement in the running of the hospital, what reason would they have to not give the government the land regardless?

Hannibal_Smith

infogiver wrote: »

As a taxpayer I was getting the land for to build my hospital on for nothing.
Now the bitches have said "f**k off and build your poxy hospital somewhere else"
So now I have to buy land and build a hospital.
All because of your bitching and moaning.

It wasn't for nothing. The price was our pride. You may have none, but I'm happy to see others had the backbone to stand up for theirs.

Parchment

Penn wrote: »

If it was true that the nuns would have had absolutely no power to influence anything about the running of the hospital or ensuring the hospital has their ethos stamped all over it, then they should have no issue with letting the government build the hospital on their land regardless. If they're truly getting nothing out of it, they could step aside and let the hospital go ahead.

But they won't. Because they were getting something out of it. And considering their history and what they owe the government, it's not the fault of people for pointing this out, it's the fault of the nuns and the government for making such a stupid decision.

Again, if the nuns were to have no involvement in the running of the hospital, what reason would they have to not give the government the land regardless?

No involvement my hole.

As the saying goes "He who pays the piper plays the tune...."

Regardless this first world country we live in shouldn't be looking for help from religious organisations to provide adequate healthcare.

liam7831

Fair play to them

spakman

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Wintergirl wrote: »

The nuns aren't preventing abortions being carried out in irish hospitals, the Irish people are, they don't want abortion on demand and they will never vote for that

That must be a fantastic crystal ball you have there.

its nothing to do with religion for a lot of people, atheists will vote against abortion too for moral reasons that have nothing to do with any ethos.

So I keep hearing. From religious people.

Well I'm not religious in any way, and would only vote for abortion in extremely limited circumstances. I value life very highly.

bodice ripper

infogiver wrote:

Well done posters! RTÉ 6 One news reporting that the Board are immediately reviewing the agreement and will most likely pull out now, so its back to the drawing board for another 10 years or so. Well done!

At least they are consistent

pjohnson

Success no one gets the Maternity Hospital. Great way to ensure womens rights, by giving them nothing lol.

spakman

Parchment wrote: »

Penn wrote: »

If it was true that the nuns would have had absolutely no power to influence anything about the running of the hospital or ensuring the hospital has their ethos stamped all over it, then they should have no issue with letting the government build the hospital on their land regardless. If they're truly getting nothing out of it, they could step aside and let the hospital go ahead.

But they won't. Because they were getting something out of it. And considering their history and what they owe the government, it's not the fault of people for pointing this out, it's the fault of the nuns and the government for making such a stupid decision.

Again, if the nuns were to have no involvement in the running of the hospital, what reason would they have to not give the government the land regardless?

No involvement my hole.

As the saying goes "He who pays the piper plays the tune...."

Regardless this first world country we live in shouldn't be looking for help from religious organisations to provide adequate healthcare.

Exactly. The state should have offered them a fair price for the land (preferably minus the sum outstanding to the redress scheme) and if that was refused, then CPO.
It would be more expensive but it would be 100% state owned, and we wouldn't be beholdened to a 3rd party for a vital piece of national healthcare infrastructure.

Blazer

infogiver wrote: »

As a taxpayer I was getting the land for to build my hospital on for nothing.
Now the bitches have said "f**k off and build your poxy hospital somewhere else"
So now I have to buy land and build a hospital.
All because of your bitching and moaning.

I'd quite happily pay extra taxes to ensure the nuns don't get control of this hospital.

Parchment

pjohnson wrote: »

Success no one gets the Maternity Hospital. Great way to ensure womens rights, by giving them nothing lol.

So Irish women should suck it up and accept a less than ideal hospital? ok.

Hannibal_Smith

spakman wrote: »

Exactly. The state should have offered them a fair price for the land (preferably minus the sum outstanding to the redress scheme) and if that was refused, then CPO.
It would be more expensive but it would be 100% state owned, and we wouldn't be beholdened to a 3rd party for a vital piece of national healthcare infrastructure.

Tbh I don't know would that news story be less controversial. 'State pays nuns millions for land'. I agree with you that I would have preferred if the state acquired the land, but I think I would have been annoyed if we paid those women any money.