The NMH at St. Vincents

seanrambo87

So what if people are having anti-catholic rants? They are a criminal organisation from the top down. They've done more damage to the people of this country than any foreign invader could have hoped to, all with the blessing of the people. Imo anybody proud to be a catholic needs their head examined.

It's laughable that the government is handing over control of this new maternity hospital to ANY religious order;

"In 2013 the Sisters of Charity, along with the three other religious congregations which managed Magdalene laundries, announced that they would not be making any contribution to the State redress scheme for women who had been in the laundries."

What a joke! Shame on them.

The_Valeyard

seanrambo87 wrote: »

So what if people are having anti-catholic rants? They are a criminal organisation from the top down. They've done more damage to the people of this country than any foreign invader could have hoped to, all with the blessing of the people. Imo anybody proud to be a catholic needs their head examined

Just another bigoted post. Another anti Catholic bashing posters fun day.

Common theme these days.

jiltloop

HONKEY TONK wrote: »

I find it funny that people are shaking their fists at the RCC being involved yet more the 90% of the parents who's kids are born there will go running to the church 6 months later to get their baby baptised.

So they have a chance of getting in to a school?

jiltloop

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Just another bigoted post. Another anti Catholic bashing posters fun day.

Common theme these days.

I'm not anti Catholic or anti any religion for that matter but I believe that the church abused it's position of power in this country for many years and has never been properly brought to justice for it.

The powers the church still has in education and healthcare should be gradually removed and religion should be extricated and separated wholly from these important foundational elements of our society as religion has no business being involved in them. It's that simple.

Outlaw Pete

After a traffic accident I ended up in St Joesph's (then part of Beaumont, no idea if it still is) and was treated appallingly there by the head nurse. She treated the nurses below her appallingly also. One day I heard that a complaint was put in on my behalf and when I asked by who, I was told it was by a head sister who had witnessed my mistreatment. Was almost 20 years ago now but that was my only dealing with nuns being involved in the running of hospitals. Place was spotless too as they used to do rounds twice a day to make sure.

The primary school I attended was not religious in any way and yet I had one teacher there who choked me when I was around nine and then denied it. I think in this country we would like to apportion all the blame on misdeeds of the past on the RCC but the reality is that a hell of a lot of people have been abused and mistreated in our schools and hospitals by people who were in no way religious. Not saying that negates any bad that priests or nuns have done throughout time but I feel it needs to be pointed out and as the RCC and those connected with it far from had a monopoly on pure badness.

Widdershins

I don't like the sound of this.

Kiith

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Just another bigoted post. Another anti Catholic bashing posters fun day.

Common theme these days.

Just curious...do you think this is good news? You have no reservations about this at all?

I'm absolutely against it myself, as i don't think the Church has any place in our hospitals, schools or government. I don't care if they are the most common religion...they should be completely separate from the above fields.

Widdershins

HONKEY TONK wrote: »

I find it funny that people are shaking their fists at the RCC being involved yet more the 90% of the parents who's kids are born there will go running to the church 6 months later to get their baby baptised.

Even so, to go to the church for a religious business is very different to having the church involved in maternity healthcare. People want the two to be separate.

groovyg

The same order run Temple St Children's Hospital & Our Lady's Hospice in Harold's Cross, why the outrage about the new maternity hospital?

osarusan

It will be owned by a group called St Vincent's Healthcare Group, in which they are a shareholder (majority shareholder?).

What influence does that give them in the running of the hospital?

It's hardly no influence, yet a dept of health spokesperson said “autonomy of the national maternity hospital board will be underpinned by reserved powers to ensure clinical and operational independence, and the Minister for Health will hold the power to protect those reserved powers”.

groovyg

osarusan wrote: »

It will be owned by a group called St Vincent's Healthcare Group, in which they are a shareholder (majority shareholder?).

What influence does that give them in the running of the hospital?

These are the Board of Directors

Charter of Good Governance

Current List of Board Members

Chairman

Mr. James Menton (Chairman)

Sister Mary Benton
Dr. David Brophy
Mr. John Compton
Mr. Gerard Flood
Professor Michael Keane
Mr. Myles Lee
Ms. Sharen McCabe
Professor Patrick Murray
Mr. Frank O'Riordan
Sister Agnes Reynolds
Mr. Willie Shannon
Unless otherwise determined by an ordinary resolution of the Company the number of directors shall not be less than two or more than thirteen. The first directors of the Company shall be deemed to have been appointed pursuant to section 3(5) of the Companies (Amendment) Act, 1982.

http://www.svhg.ie/Board_of_Directors/Current_List_of_Board_Members.html

Anita Blow

Outside of the whole "religious orders shouldn't be running health/education", I would think many are opposed based on the simple belief that if it's the taxpayer who's paying to build the thing then it should remain in our ownership. It shouldn't be transferred to anyone.
Even on clinical grounds, absorbing it into SVUH would be a mistake. The head of the maternity hospital in CUH felt that the maternity service in CUH suffers by not being an independently run body because when cuts are required in the main hospital, maternity services are the first to be cut. Whereas if the maternity hospital is run independently, it's budget is maintained and it retains autonomy over its own services.

Absolam

groovyg wrote: »

These are the Board of Directors
http://www.svhg.ie/Board_of_Directors/Current_List_of_Board_Members.html

That's the Board of SVHG; that Board nominates four of the nine person Board of the company running the hospital (The National Maternity Hospital at Elm Park DAC).

One eyed Jack

Graces7 wrote: »

Are you really positing that the Catholic Church bore no responsibility for the systemic abuse of literally thousands of Irish children, within living memory?

No Grace, it's standard practice to hold those people who actually committed crimes, responsible for their crimes. The whole of the Roman Catholic Church then isn't responsible for the behaviour of it's members as individuals, any more than we would hold everyone alive in the State today, responsible for the actions of their grandparents and great grandparents who were citizens of the Irish State at the time.

And are you really calling eg young women who had been raped and were pregnant and incarcerated for that reason " undesirables"?

I'm not Grace, that's how they were generally regarded in Irish society at the time. Some people still think that way today, and propose abortion as a solution for these women who find themselves pregnant following being taped. Can't afford to raise children? Abortion. Children have Downs Syndrome? Abortion.

We'll soon have a nice, well mannered Aryan dystopian, socially engineered society... at least I think that's the final solution of anti-religious affluent leftie liberal fcukwits - wipe out everyone who isn't them and doesn't conform to their ideals for society. Better the devil you know as far as I'm concerned tbh.

I was recently at Letterfrack in Connemara, at the burial ground used by the Christian Brothers at their Industrial School, ie where they sent young lads for any reason and none.. Please explain why and how 4 year old was committed there by the Gardai, and have a google at the nearly 100 graves of kids from 4 upwards.

By your own admission Grace - children who were regarded by society as undesirables, or even those who needed to be put manners on - off to reform school they'd go, indeed many of whom were never to be seen or heard of again.

"removal of undesirables from Irish society"?
Says it all really! A total lack of humanity

Indeed. Those aren't my words btw. Instead of suggesting I google, may I respectfully suggest that you look up the discussions around the Poor Acts of 1831.

And how were the tiny babies buried at Tuam "undesirables"?

Who else do you think would have wanted to deal with the bastards? People were relieved to be able to tell neighbours and friends that their daughter had suddenly emigrated or 'found their calling' and joined a religious order. There was a conscious decision made by society at the time to promote the threat to children of being sent to one of these places if they didn't behave themselves, just like there's a collective amnesia amongst society nowadays that paints a target on the door of the RCC by means of deflecting from their own abhorrent collusion.

The sooner the Orders literally die out the better. Giving them yet more power and money is madness.

The Orders are fine, weed out the undesirables in Government and then move on to weed out the undesirables in politics in general instead of electing nest feathering fcukwits like Ming Flanagan and Mick Wallace, and you might actually be doing future generations some good.

Joey Jo-Jo Junior

osarusan wrote: »

It will be owned by a group called St Vincent's Healthcare Group, in which they are a shareholder (majority shareholder?).

Everything on their website refers to Sisters of Charity as the shareholders.

Sleepy

I love how those defending this sick organisation seem to think that labelling those of us opposed to their cults involvement in state institutions as "anti-Catholic" as if that was some horrendous thing.

I'm quite happy to admit to being "anti-Catholic". I consider it, and all other religions, to be on the whole, rather negative in regards to their impact on humanity. As surely as Islam's treatment of women is wrong, so is a religion claiming to follow the teachings of "Christ" (y'know he of the "meek shall inherit the earth" / throwing the moneychangers out of the temple fame) to own a bank and profit off of the provision of substandard healthcare.

keano_afc

Chuchote wrote: »

Well, let's hope you never have septicaemia and need an abortion then.

Lets hope you never take up medicine if you think an abortion cures septicaemia.

suicide_circus

I heard theyre gonna have The Magdalene Sisters playing on a loop in the delivery rooms

osarusan

Joey Jo-Jo Junior wrote: »

Everything on their website refers to Sisters of Charity as the shareholders.

Yeah, I wasn't sure whether they were shareholders, majority shareholders, or sole shareholders.

Either way, my question is about the influence they would have, in light of the statement I quoted earlier.

Chuchote

keano_afc wrote: »

Lets hope you never take up medicine if you think an abortion cures septicaemia.

The "abortion doesn't cure septicaemia" trope is an identifier for Iona types.

keano_afc

Chuchote wrote: »

The "abortion doesn't cure septicaemia" trope is an identifier for Iona types.

Only to the uneducated.

Chuchote

As a side note, the order that ran the Tuam "mother and baby home" whose septic tanks are now being investigated for baby corpses, also still runs hospitals:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/order-of-nuns-behind-tuam-home-runs-private-hospital-group-1.3000231

Order of nuns behind Tuam home runs private hospital group
Group made €2.3 million profit in 2015 and paid €3 million rent to Bon Secours order

Tue, Mar 7, 2017, 05:00
Colm Keena
The Bon Secours order of nuns which ran the former Tuam mother and baby home now runs one of the largest private hospital groups in Ireland and has a substantial property portfolio.
The order’s hospital group produced a profit of €2.3 million in 2015, during which year it paid €3 million to the order in rent.
(snip)
The order opened its first hospital in 1951, in Glasnevin, Dublin, and the group now also operates hospitals in Galway, Limerick, Cork and Tralee, as well as a care village in Cork. In 2015 it had about 2,700 staff who worked with 350 medical consultants and saw more than 200,000 patients.
Company filings for Bon Secours Health Systems Ltd, with a registered office on College Road, Cork, state that the group plans to invest up to €150 million in its facilities in the period to 2020.
The group had income of €230 million in 2015, and total equity at year’s end of €132 million. Among its loans was a €12.4 million it had from Bon Secours Sisters Ireland and a note to the accounts says Bon Secours Trustees holds a charge of the group’s property in respect of the loan.
During 2015 the group paid €3.99 million to the sisters in respect of building leases and loans, having paid €4 million the year before.
There was one sister and six non-religious, including five men, on the board during 2015.
Bon Secours Trustee Unlimited Company holds property in trust for the Bons Secours Sisters of Paris, in Ireland, according to its company filings. It does not give a value for this property. There are seven directors on the company’s board, all sisters.

One eyed Jack

Chuchote wrote: »

As a side note, the order that ran the Tuam "mother and baby home" whose septic tanks are now being investigated for baby corpses, also still runs hospitals:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/order-of-nuns-behind-tuam-home-runs-private-hospital-group-1.3000231

Damn good hospitals they are too!

Again your source of course is the Irish Times, who'd have seen that coming?

Berserker

Chuchote wrote: »

Well, let's hope you never have septicaemia and need an abortion then.

Is a cure for septicemia not available in the RoI?

One eyed Jack

Chuchote wrote: »

The "abortion doesn't cure septicaemia" trope is an identifier for Iona types.

But it isn't? The fact that anyone would express a different point of view is an identifier of people who have no idea what they're talking about.

Zillah

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Just another bigoted post. Another anti Catholic bashing posters fun day.

Common theme these days.

There is nothing bigoted about criticising the Catholic Church for their crimes, arrogance, and continued hypocrisy. You don't get to take the word "bigot", which is a criticism of someone with irrational prejudice, and use it to shield a wealthy, powerful organisation for the crimes they have committed.

You're sick of threads bashing the Catholic Church? Well boo hoo, we're sick of a revolting gang of hypocrites digging their talons into Irish culture and the state coffers. I'll gleefully join any conversation where we remind the world what a ghastly organisation they are, every time, until they entirely vanish into history or come crawling to the Irish people, confessing their sins and begging for our forgiveness - which they don't deserve.

Yellow pack crisps

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Graces7 wrote: »

Are you really positing that the Catholic Church bore no responsibility for the systemic abuse of literally thousands of Irish children, within living memory?

No Grace, it's standard practice to hold those people who actually committed crimes, responsible for their crimes. The whole of the Roman Catholic Church then isn't responsible for the behaviour of it's members as individuals, any more than we would hold everyone alive in the State today, responsible for the actions of their grandparents and great grandparents who were citizens of the Irish State at the time.

And are you really calling eg young women who had been raped and were pregnant and incarcerated for that reason " undesirables"?

I'm not Grace, that's how they were generally regarded in Irish society at the time. Some people still think that way today, and propose abortion as a solution for these women who find themselves pregnant following being taped. Can't afford to raise children? Abortion. Children have Downs Syndrome? Abortion.

We'll soon have a nice, well mannered Aryan dystopian, socially engineered society... at least I think that's the final solution of anti-religious affluent leftie liberal fcukwits - wipe out everyone who isn't them and doesn't conform to their ideals for society. Better the devil you know as far as I'm concerned tbh.

I was recently at Letterfrack in Connemara, at the burial ground used by the Christian Brothers at their Industrial School, ie where they sent young lads for any reason and none.. Please explain why and how 4 year old was committed there by the Gardai, and have a google at the nearly 100 graves of kids from 4 upwards.

By your own admission Grace - children who were regarded by society as undesirables, or even those who needed to be put manners on - off to reform school they'd go, indeed many of whom were never to be seen or heard of again.

"removal of undesirables from Irish society"?
Says it all really! A total lack of humanity

Indeed. Those aren't my words btw. Instead of suggesting I google, may I respectfully suggest that you look up the discussions around the Poor Acts of 1831.

And how were the tiny babies buried at Tuam "undesirables"?

Who else do you think would have wanted to deal with the bastards? People were relieved to be able to tell neighbours and friends that their daughter had suddenly emigrated or 'found their calling' and joined a religious order. There was a conscious decision made by society at the time to promote the threat to children of being sent to one of these places if they didn't behave themselves, just like there's a collective amnesia amongst society nowadays that paints a target on the door of the RCC by means of deflecting from their own abhorrent collusion.

The sooner the Orders literally die out the better. Giving them yet more power and money is madness.

The Orders are fine, weed out the undesirables in Government and then move on to weed out the undesirables in politics in general instead of electing nest feathering fcukwits like Ming Flanagan and Mick Wallace, and you might actually be doing future generations some good.

The RCC should stick to religion and its teachings and its flock 100% and let people decide by way of entering into religious institutions ie. The churches etc why do they actually need to be involved in business etc? Or why do they need to be political? Should God and his ways not be enough for them to be happy with? Why the need for power, wealth and control?

One eyed Jack

Zillah wrote: »

There is nothing bigoted about criticising the Catholic Church for their crimes, arrogance, and continued hypocrisy. You don't get to take the word "bigot", which is a criticism of someone with irrational prejudice, and use it to shield a wealthy, powerful organisation for the crimes they have committed.

You're sick of threads bashing the Catholic Church? Well boo hoo, we're sick of a revolting gang of hypocrites digging their talons into Irish culture and the state coffers. I'll gleefully join any conversation where we remind the world what a ghastly organisation they are, every time, until they entirely vanish into history or come crawling to the Irish people, confessing their sins and begging for our forgiveness - which they don't deserve.

Y'know I'm a member of Boards a number of years now too, and in all that time it's never bothered me the sort of craw-thumpy, indignant moralising and hypocrisy of posts like the above (I'm attacking the post, not the poster!). I'll be quite honest with you there's times I have to restrain myself when the urge comes upon me to laugh at and dismiss such thanks-whoring for what it is - pointless online virtue signalling.

Such prosletysing didn't work in the past, what the hell would make you think it'd be any more effective now?

Yellow pack crisps

The problem with the RCC is that they have a saint for everything but regret nothing.

Are there actuley any Irish nuns anymore.

Zillah

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Such prosletysing didn't work in the past, what the hell would make you think it'd be any more effective now?

But it is working. The Catholic Church has never had less influence than it does now. It's never faced such open scorn. The more we call it out the better.

steddyeddy

Samaris wrote: »

The problem is that a lot of people in Ireland want basic social services, by which I mean education and medicine, taken out of the hands of the religious orders in light of two decades of religious scandals involving..well, education and medicine, particularly against the most vulnerable people in Irish society, spanning back to the founding of the State.

The second problem is that, having been found culpable of a range of horrendous actions against vulnerable people, the Church hasn't finished paying reparations, overall behaved pretty badly in terms of making up for their actions against many people still alive today that suffered through it's less-than-Christian care and the IRRC appears to be getting out of it rather lightly. This ends up with a maternity hospital that will again be owned in most part by an order of nuns who will have a great deal to say in the running of the place and an awful lot of people no longer trust religious orders to be having anything to do with vulnerable pregnant women and their babies.

While it's true that this order specifically may not have done anything and may not even be inclined to enforce rules in such a way that we have more deaths of pregnant women desperately in need of a procedure the Catholic Church disapproves of, we have seen women die -recently- under a similar order with similar ideals and the vast majority of the population found it shameful. That the Irish State is allowing this certainly comes across as a ridiculously, egregiously, insulting and bad idea. Religious orders have failed in the duties they took up and shown little inclination to truly regret it or fully accept what damage they did and were allowed to do. This is a gesture of putting trust in another such religious order without the Church having really cleaned up its own backyard in terms of its abuses of power over the vulnerable.

Great post.

One eyed Jack

Zillah wrote: »

But it is working. The Catholic Church has never had less influence than it does now. It's never faced such open scorn. The more we call it out the better.

Erm, yeah, doing a bang-up job of it there with the religious orders still maintaining patronage and management of primary schools, secondary schools, and third level institutions, their involvement in numerous sports and clubs, and of course many social occasions and religious sacraments.

Damn, I almost forgot - hospitals!

If that's your idea of working, could you possibly be any more inefficient?

arayess

Chuchote wrote: »

It would have been France, but France seems to be going through the same fascistic Catho tube now.

so nowhere...your anti Ireland stance was a nonsense so.

Chuchote

Waterford Whispers News has a piece about it

http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2017/04/18/religious-order-that-wont-pay-abuse-victims-perfect-to-run-new-maternity-hospital/

Religious Order That Won’t Pay Abuse Victims Perfect To Run New Maternity Hospital
April 18, 2017 - BREAKING NEWS, LOCAL NEWS

IN NEWS that has shocked no one with a working knowledge of Ireland, the government has announced that a religious order implicated in the abuse of children and its subsequent cover up will be handed the reins of Ireland’s new maternity hospital, located on the grounds of St. Vincent’s Hospital.

Defending its right to make decisions that perplex, offend and disgust in equal measure, the government sought to explain the unexplainable at a brief media address earlier today and justify handing the Sisters of Charity religious order the hospital.

“Have you seen how they just steadfastly refuse to pay? Imagine what sort of corners they’d cut spending wise with the hospital, they’re perfect!†beamed Minister for Health Simon Harris, who now resembles the skin left behind by a snake after it molts.
(snip)

Corruptedmorals

Hopefully it won't have an impact on their policies such as the extent of pre-natal testing available and the timing of the anomaly scan. Religion has no place influencing a hospital's policies and ethos.

Chuchote

Corruptedmorals wrote: »

Hopefully it won't have an impact on their policies such as the extent of pre-natal testing available and the timing of the anomaly scan. Religion has no place influencing a hospital's policies and ethos.

You're a funny fellow!

skankkuvhima

Is it true you can't get a vasectomy in religious run hospitals?

xl500

HONKEY TONK wrote: »

I find it funny that people are shaking their fists at the RCC being involved yet more the 90% of the parents who's kids are born there will go running to the church 6 months later to get their baby baptised.

Probably so they can get them into a school

One eyed Jack

xl500 wrote: »

Probably so they can get them into a school

They don't need to be baptised for school admissions, not to mention the hypocrisy of their own position -

"Get religion out of schools... run along now Fiachra, you don't want to be missing out on Communion practice".

But... but...

No, it's what's most convenient for them. Simple as that, same as it was in Irish society to get the undesirables out of sight because it was easier and more convenient for them then too. Nobody wanted an extra mouth to feed when the State had left them with nothing, and of course we see how history repeats itself. The RCC aren't to blame for the abuses of children in the care of the State nowadays either, but that's not our problem now, that's a future generations problem.

Daisy78

Noddyholder wrote: »

Or partly because most people in Ireland still follow there catholic faith to some degree or another contrary to what a few folks on boards would have you believe.

That's perfectly fine. But national institutions such as this one should not be handed over to a religious society to run, in a culture of people with many different faiths and none. Religious observance is a private matter and should not be brought into education and particularly medicine.

Chuchote

skankkuvhima wrote: »

Is it true you can't get a vasectomy in religious run hospitals?

Vincent's say you can get procedures, including vasectomies, that are "clinically indicated". It's not altogether clear whether not wanting to gift the world with unwanted babies counts as a clinical indication.

Atoms for Peace

Sisters of charity? Charity???!!!

One eyed Jack

Daisy78 wrote: »

That's perfectly fine. But national institutions such as this one should not be handed over to a religious society to run, in a culture of people with many different faiths and none.

It's not being handed over to a religious society to run. The information in the Irish Times article in the opening post is deliberately misleading (no surprise there really). There are a number of reasons the location was chosen, not least because it would provide a better maternity service.

Religious observance is a private matter and should not be brought into education and particularly medicine.

Well I'm not going to directly contradict your opinion, I just don't agree with it. Religious education is a concept in it's own right, and just like the religious orders who founded the hospitals, so too did religious orders found schools.

You can't take religion out of religion (the religious orders own the properties). If you want to separate education and healthcare from religion, then the only way to do that is to elect people who will actually build hospitals and schools that are directly controlled, run and managed by the State...

because the State will do a much better job, right?

diomed

Zillah wrote: »

There is nothing bigoted about criticising the Catholic Church for their crimes, arrogance, and continued hypocrisy. You don't get to take the word "bigot", which is a criticism of someone with irrational prejudice, and use it to shield a wealthy, powerful organisation for the crimes they have committed.

You're sick of threads bashing the Catholic Church? Well boo hoo, we're sick of a revolting gang of hypocrites digging their talons into Irish culture and the state coffers. I'll gleefully join any conversation where we remind the world what a ghastly organisation they are, every time, until they entirely vanish into history or come crawling to the Irish people, confessing their sins and begging for our forgiveness - which they don't deserve.

Probably best then to have no Catholic doctors or staff, just to be safe.

Zillah

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Erm, yeah, doing a bang-up job of it there with the religious orders still maintaining patronage and management of primary schools, secondary schools, and third level institutions, their involvement in numerous sports and clubs, and of course many social occasions and religious sacraments.

Damn, I almost forgot - hospitals!

If that's your idea of working, could you possibly be any more inefficient?

Sure, there is lots left to do, but compare the state of the Church and its influence now to ten and fifty years ago. You'd have to be delusional to think they weren't on their way out.

ohnonotgmail

diomed wrote: »

Probably best then to have no Catholic doctors or staff, just to be safe.

If they insist on imposing their catholic ethos on patients then perhaps we can do without them?

One eyed Jack

Zillah wrote: »

Sure, there is lots left to do, but compare the state of the Church and its influence now to ten and fifty years ago. You'd have to be delusional to think they weren't on their way out.

But Zillah honestly, look at the evidence I suggested earlier - the religious orders control the majority of everything that actually matters in Irish society. All you're arguing with is the lack of bums on seats argument. So what like?

Actually come to think of it, there wasn't standing room in the church when I was there last Sunday, and the demographics are certainly changing. Every time there's a novena you can't get into the church, and it's a fairly large congregation. Can you imagine the crowd Frankie is going to draw when he comes to visit?

The RCC isn't going anywhere Zillah, and it sure as hell isn't dying out. If anything I'd suggest it was evolving to meet the needs of it's congregation, and it's evolving a hell of a lot faster than the ideologies of those who would wish it would die out already.

gctest50

One eyed Jack wrote: »

.
Actually come to think of it, there wasn't standing room in the church when I was there last Sunday

Heavy duty science that

One eyed Jack wrote: »

......

The RCC isn't going anywhere Zillah, and it sure as hell isn't dying out. If anything I'd suggest it was evolving ..........

A bit like rats really, they've learned where there's cats, there is food. And they're everywhere.

seamus

Anecdotes are not evidence. Plenty of churches were half empty last weekend, many other smaller ones are being quietly sold off to developers in order to provide funds to take care of the elderly priests and nuns who aren't being replaced.

You can't argue the statistics from the last census. For the first time in 55 years, the actual number of Catholics declined. Not just the percentage, the overall number.
It's in fact the first time in modern history that the population has increased, but the number of Catholics has declined.

Arguing the the religion is on the up is actual delusion. The bare facts say it is otherwise.