The NMH at St. Vincents

Daisy78

Noddyholder wrote: »

Or partly because most people in Ireland still follow there catholic faith to some degree or another contrary to what a few folks on boards would have you believe.

That's perfectly fine. But national institutions such as this one should not be handed over to a religious society to run, in a culture of people with many different faiths and none. Religious observance is a private matter and should not be brought into education and particularly medicine.

Chuchote

skankkuvhima wrote: »

Is it true you can't get a vasectomy in religious run hospitals?

Vincent's say you can get procedures, including vasectomies, that are "clinically indicated". It's not altogether clear whether not wanting to gift the world with unwanted babies counts as a clinical indication.

Atoms for Peace

Sisters of charity? Charity???!!!

One eyed Jack

Daisy78 wrote: »

That's perfectly fine. But national institutions such as this one should not be handed over to a religious society to run, in a culture of people with many different faiths and none.

It's not being handed over to a religious society to run. The information in the Irish Times article in the opening post is deliberately misleading (no surprise there really). There are a number of reasons the location was chosen, not least because it would provide a better maternity service.

Religious observance is a private matter and should not be brought into education and particularly medicine.

Well I'm not going to directly contradict your opinion, I just don't agree with it. Religious education is a concept in it's own right, and just like the religious orders who founded the hospitals, so too did religious orders found schools.

You can't take religion out of religion (the religious orders own the properties). If you want to separate education and healthcare from religion, then the only way to do that is to elect people who will actually build hospitals and schools that are directly controlled, run and managed by the State...

because the State will do a much better job, right?

diomed

Zillah wrote: »

There is nothing bigoted about criticising the Catholic Church for their crimes, arrogance, and continued hypocrisy. You don't get to take the word "bigot", which is a criticism of someone with irrational prejudice, and use it to shield a wealthy, powerful organisation for the crimes they have committed.

You're sick of threads bashing the Catholic Church? Well boo hoo, we're sick of a revolting gang of hypocrites digging their talons into Irish culture and the state coffers. I'll gleefully join any conversation where we remind the world what a ghastly organisation they are, every time, until they entirely vanish into history or come crawling to the Irish people, confessing their sins and begging for our forgiveness - which they don't deserve.

Probably best then to have no Catholic doctors or staff, just to be safe.

Zillah

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Erm, yeah, doing a bang-up job of it there with the religious orders still maintaining patronage and management of primary schools, secondary schools, and third level institutions, their involvement in numerous sports and clubs, and of course many social occasions and religious sacraments.

Damn, I almost forgot - hospitals!

If that's your idea of working, could you possibly be any more inefficient?

Sure, there is lots left to do, but compare the state of the Church and its influence now to ten and fifty years ago. You'd have to be delusional to think they weren't on their way out.

ohnonotgmail

diomed wrote: »

Probably best then to have no Catholic doctors or staff, just to be safe.

If they insist on imposing their catholic ethos on patients then perhaps we can do without them?

One eyed Jack

Zillah wrote: »

Sure, there is lots left to do, but compare the state of the Church and its influence now to ten and fifty years ago. You'd have to be delusional to think they weren't on their way out.

But Zillah honestly, look at the evidence I suggested earlier - the religious orders control the majority of everything that actually matters in Irish society. All you're arguing with is the lack of bums on seats argument. So what like?

Actually come to think of it, there wasn't standing room in the church when I was there last Sunday, and the demographics are certainly changing. Every time there's a novena you can't get into the church, and it's a fairly large congregation. Can you imagine the crowd Frankie is going to draw when he comes to visit?

The RCC isn't going anywhere Zillah, and it sure as hell isn't dying out. If anything I'd suggest it was evolving to meet the needs of it's congregation, and it's evolving a hell of a lot faster than the ideologies of those who would wish it would die out already.

gctest50

One eyed Jack wrote: »

.
Actually come to think of it, there wasn't standing room in the church when I was there last Sunday

Heavy duty science that

One eyed Jack wrote: »

......

The RCC isn't going anywhere Zillah, and it sure as hell isn't dying out. If anything I'd suggest it was evolving ..........

A bit like rats really, they've learned where there's cats, there is food. And they're everywhere.

seamus

Anecdotes are not evidence. Plenty of churches were half empty last weekend, many other smaller ones are being quietly sold off to developers in order to provide funds to take care of the elderly priests and nuns who aren't being replaced.

You can't argue the statistics from the last census. For the first time in 55 years, the actual number of Catholics declined. Not just the percentage, the overall number.
It's in fact the first time in modern history that the population has increased, but the number of Catholics has declined.

Arguing the the religion is on the up is actual delusion. The bare facts say it is otherwise.

One eyed Jack

gctest50 wrote: »

Heavy duty science that

I wasn't presenting it as a scientific argument? I notice you avoided addressing my point that the RCC is deeply ingrained in every facet of Irish society though.

A bit like rats really, they've learned where there's cats, there is food. And they're everywhere.

Sterling rebuttal there. That's me told.

ohnonotgmail

seamus wrote: »

Anecdotes are not evidence. Plenty of churches were half empty last weekend, many other smaller ones are being quietly sold off to developers in order to provide funds to take care of the elderly priests and nuns who aren't being replaced.

You can't argue the statistics from the last census. For the first time in 55 years, the actual number of Catholics declined. Not just the percentage, the overall number.
It's in fact the first time in modern history that the population has increased, but the number of Catholics has declined.

Arguing the the religion is on the up is actual delusion. The bare facts say it is otherwise.

Not just the smaller ones. the huuuuuge church in finglas is being closed and sold off.

listermint

The long and short of it there are folks who think the church can do no wrong. the local priest could come in and burn their house down and they wouldn't have a bad word said about him .

There are many here in this very thread. I've seen that sort of attitude in older people in my family you have to laugh and say bless.

Then there is the rest of us who are perplexed how tax payers spend hundreds of millions of Euro on a piece of national infrastructure and it's then handed over to an organisation who owe the tax payer millions for its part in wide scale abuse and effective murder.

But you know that's the split that's there.

Irrational versus rational.

Chuchote

There's a great suggestion going around that the hospital should be named Savita Halappanavar Memorial

CoolHandBandit

As long as people keep voting in the politicians who make these decisions they get what they deserve. New politics my arse.

One eyed Jack

seamus wrote: »

Anecdotes are not evidence. Plenty of churches were half empty last weekend, many other smaller ones are being quietly sold off to developers in order to provide funds to take care of the elderly priests and nuns who aren't being replaced.

The bums on seats argument again? The anecdote was merely a passing thought, nothing more. The more salient point of my post is that the RCC are still very much in control of every facet of Irish society.

You can't argue the statistics from the last census. For the first time in 55 years, the actual number of Catholics declined. Not just the percentage, the overall number.
It's in fact the first time in modern history that the population has increased, but the number of Catholics has declined.

I'm not arguing with the census statistics that suggest that Irish Catholics are having less children, so naturally the numbers of Irish Catholics has declined. It shouldn't come as a shock to anyone either that the demographics of Irish society have changed in the last 50 odd years, but my point is that the RCC is evolving to meet that demand in a number of different ways.

Arguing the the religion is on the up is actual delusion. The bare facts say it is otherwise.

I didn't suggest it was on the up, I suggested that it's hardly delusional to acknowledge that the RCC isn't actually going anywhere.

soups05

thinking back to the birth of my first child in 1991in the louth county hospital (may it rest in peace)there was an elderly nurse/midwife there at that time who treated me wife and I really badly. She was constantly narky with us both for no reason, it was so bad i still remember it all these years later.

A nun of around the same age was visiting a friend in the same ward and was having a little chat with us and was perfectly nice, a wonderful representative of her vocation. During the chats she mentioned that this particular nurse dislike unmarried mothers. My wife was 19 and I was twenty and because her fingers had swollen she was not wearing her wedding ring. The nurse had jumped to the wrong conclusion.

I went to her and reamed her out of it for her attitude, when I pointed out we were married for almost a year at this point she went pale and tried to stammer an apology. I was having none of it and told her new mothers to be should be treated with respect, married or not, it's none of her business.

my point is that the whole nursing profession cannot be judged by this one nurse just like the whole collection of nuns, priests etc cannot be judged by the actions of a few, a long time ago. If you replace the titles like nun or priest with titles like black or muslim would it be acceptable to treat them all badly just cos one small group did wrong?

hhhmmm, its after hours, replace muslim with gay or we will be inundated with the "they are all terrorists" crowd lol.

listermint

soups05 wrote: »

thinking back to the birth of my first child in 1991in the louth county hospital (may it rest in peace)there was an elderly nurse/midwife there at that time who treated me wife and I really badly. She was constantly narky with us both for no reason, it was so bad i still remember it all these years later.

A nun of around the same age was visiting a friend in the same ward and was having a little chat with us and was perfectly nice, a wonderful representative of her vocation. During the chats she mentioned that this particular nurse dislike unmarried mothers. My wife was 19 and I was twenty and because her fingers had swollen she was not wearing her wedding ring. The nurse had jumped to the wrong conclusion.

I went to her and reamed her out of it for her attitude, when I pointed out we were married for almost a year at this point she went pale and tried to stammer an apology. I was having none of it and told her new mothers to be should be treated with respect, married or not, it's none of her business.

my point is that the whole nursing profession cannot be judged by this one nurse just like the whole collection of nuns, priests etc cannot be judged by the actions of a few, a long time ago. If you replace the titles like nun or priest with titles like black or muslim would it be acceptable to treat them all badly just cos one small group did wrong?

hhhmmm, its after hours, replace muslim with gay or we will be inundated with the "they are all terrorists" crowd lol.

None of these stories mean a piece of infrastructure of this value should be simply handed over in such a way.

None of it.

This is hundreds of millions of Euro.

And some very major questions needs to be bloody well answered.

One eyed Jack

Chuchote wrote: »

There's a great suggestion going around that the hospital should be named Savita Halappanavar Memorial

That's an awful suggestion! Expectant mothers staying in a hospital named after a woman who died due to staff incompetence?

Jesus I really wonder about some people.

soups05

true, and i am at a loss to explain how they can be handed something so valuable. I don't agree with it but I am simply reacting to the posters bringing up the scandals from the past. when i meet a german friend I don't repeatedly give him grief over the nazi's and the war. why do some insist on giving grief to the clergy over past mistakes.
can't we as a country move on and let it drop? I am not a catholic anymore for my own reasons, none of which have a bearing on the good men and women who devoted their lives to their faith. These days it seems to be cool to bash the church.

That said I would prefer a proper management for a hospital, one which can balance the needs of a huge business which is how a hospital needs to be run.

listermint

soups05 wrote: »

true, and i am at a loss to explain how they can be handed something so valuable. I don't agree with it but I am simply reacting to the posters bringing up the scandals from the past. when i meet a german friend I don't repeatedly give him grief over the nazi's and the war. why do some insist on giving grief to the clergy over past mistakes.
can't we as a country move on and let it drop? I am not a catholic anymore for my own reasons, none of which have a bearing on the good men and women who devoted their lives to their faith. These days it seems to be cool to bash the church.

That said I would prefer a proper management for a hospital, one which can balance the needs of a huge business which is how a hospital needs to be run.

This can be done without handing over 300 million of our tax payer infrastructure and excusing it with anecdotes.

.... Beggars belief

Zaph

listermint wrote: »

None of these stories mean a piece of infrastructure of this value should be simply handed over in such a way.

None of it.

This is hundreds of millions of Euro.

And some very major questions needs to be bloody well answered.

Irrespective of any stories involving the future owners of the hospital, I have a problem with millions of public money being spent on a major piece of infrastructure and being handed over to anyone . Why aren't the government keeping it in public ownership and having the HSE run it? Not that I necessarily think that the HSE are much better, but they'll be funding it anyway, so they may as well run it.

4ensic15

[QUOTE=soups05;103258404 when i meet a german friend I don't repeatedly give him grief over the nazi's and the war.[/QUOTE]


There is a general convention of not mentioning the war to Germans. They lost the war. They are sore losers and as shown before, if they are reminded of losing they will start another war.

ohnonotgmail

soups05 wrote: »

true, and i am at a loss to explain how they can be handed something so valuable. I don't agree with it but I am simply reacting to the posters bringing up the scandals from the past. when i meet a german friend I don't repeatedly give him grief over the nazi's and the war. why do some insist on giving grief to the clergy over past mistakes.
can't we as a country move on and let it drop? I am not a catholic anymore for my own reasons, none of which have a bearing on the good men and women who devoted their lives to their faith. These days it seems to be cool to bash the church.

That said I would prefer a proper management for a hospital, one which can balance the needs of a huge business which is how a hospital needs to be run.

Perhaps when the church faces up to what it has done then people will stop giving it grief. Perhaps when they start paying the compensation they agreed to pay. The sisters of mercy have paid a pittance of what they agreed to pay. The same sisters who have just been handed a free hospital.

your comment regarding germany isnt worthy of comment.

ohnonotgmail

4ensic15 wrote: »

There is a general convention of not mentioning the war to Germans. They lost the war. They are sore losers and as shown before, if they are reminded of losing they will start another war.

to put it mildly, horse****.

Zillah

One eyed Jack wrote: »

But Zillah honestly, look at the evidence I suggested earlier - the religious orders control the majority of everything that actually matters in Irish society. All you're arguing with is the lack of bums on seats argument. So what like?

Actually come to think of it, there wasn't standing room in the church when I was there last Sunday, and the demographics are certainly changing. Every time there's a novena you can't get into the church, and it's a fairly large congregation. Can you imagine the crowd Frankie is going to draw when he comes to visit?

The RCC isn't going anywhere Zillah, and it sure as hell isn't dying out. If anything I'd suggest it was evolving to meet the needs of it's congregation, and it's evolving a hell of a lot faster than the ideologies of those who would wish it would die out already.

lol, you're like the guys still playing the violin while the Titanic sinks.

soups05

listermint wrote: »

This can be done without handing over 300 million of our tax payer infrastructure and excusing it with anecdotes.

.... Beggars belief

and as you can see from my posts i am not in favour of handing over the hospital to nuns. it beggars belief that you think that after i made it quiet clear lol

One eyed Jack

Zillah wrote: »

lol, you're like the guys still playing the violin while the Titanic sinks.

The Titanic, or the RCC in this case at least, isn't sinking, it's bobbing along just fine, and it will continue to outlast the number of challenges it has faced throughout it's existence because as I said - it evolves a hell of a lot faster than the ideologies who would wish it would just die out already.

uptherebels

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The Titanic, or the RCC in this case at least, isn't sinking, it's bobbing along just fine, and it will continue to outlast the number of challenges it has faced throughout it's existence because as I said - it evolves a hell of a lot faster than the ideologies who would wish it would just die out already.

keep telling yourself that, go down with the sinking ship.
The RCC in this country is dying a death of a thousand cuts. Not as fast as i would like but probably within my lifetime.

To bad they cant evolve a conscience and stop dodging compensation for their crimes.

Religion is a private matter and has no place in hospitals, government and in schools.

Ulysses Gaze

soups05 wrote: »

true, and i am at a loss to explain how they can be handed something so valuable. I don't agree with it but I am simply reacting to the posters bringing up the scandals from the past. when i meet a german friend I don't repeatedly give him grief over the nazi's and the war. why do some insist on giving grief to the clergy over past mistakes.
can't we as a country move on and let it drop? I am not a catholic anymore for my own reasons, none of which have a bearing on the good men and women who devoted their lives to their faith. These days it seems to be cool to bash the church.

That said I would prefer a proper management for a hospital, one which can balance the needs of a huge business which is how a hospital needs to be run.

Not while they still have not paid over all the money that was agreed in the sweetheart settlement deal they got.

Which is a small fraction of what they should have had to have paid. Thanks to Michael Woods and The Soldiers of Bankruptcy.