The NMH at St. Vincents

RobertKK

Maybe Peter Boylan wanted to be head honcho and didn't get his way, there did seem to be more going on than just the ownership.

aloyisious

RobertKK wrote: »

Maybe Peter Boylan wanted to be head honcho and didn't get his way, there did seem to be more going on than just the ownership.

Possible, but he had been Master at the NMH, Holles St, before Dr Mahony.

NuMarvel

pilly wrote: »

Because it was over that issue that Boylan resigned. Of course they would have informed him if things were going to change.

I doubt that they would have. To the order and Vincent's, it would have been a completely internal matter for another hospital and it wouldn't be appropriate to get involved. I find it unlikely they would have intervened after Dr Boylan made his announcement in any case. And they obviously wouldn't have known his intentions beforehand.

pilly wrote: »

Please stop embarrassing yourself. If this was known at the time it would have been announced. All they've done today is make the announcement. NO reason they couldn't have done that a month ago.

If asking questions is embarrassing myself, then so be it. But I would point out that I haven't said that I believe the claim that this was going to happen at this point anyway. I'm simply questioning the logic of others who don't believe it. So maybe I'm not the one embarrassing myself after all.

Personally, I'm inclined to believe that this is something the order had been considering for some time and it was going to happen at some point in the future. That's is happening now is a result of the protests and public outcry. I think it still would have happened without them, but not for at least a few years.

oppenheimer1

The SoC have said they were going to divest anyway. All that had happened is that the process has been speeded up at best.

The protests probably kicked this along faster than it would have happened naturally but I don't think this can be seen as a great victory for people power. Opposition was limited to a small public protest, angry corners of the internet and the letters pages of the IT.

Water charges was a victory for people power, this wasn't.

pilly

NuMarvel wrote: »

I doubt that they would have. To the order and Vincent's, it would have been a completely internal matter for another hospital and it wouldn't be appropriate to get involved. I find it unlikely they would have intervened after Dr Boylan made his announcement in any case. And they obviously wouldn't have known his intentions beforehand.



If asking questions is embarrassing myself, then so be it. But I would point out that I haven't said that I believe the claim that this was going to happen at this point anyway. I'm simply questioning the logic of others who don't believe it. So maybe I'm not the one embarrassing myself after all.

Personally, I'm inclined to believe that this is something the order had been considering for some time and it was going to happen at some point in the future. That's is happening now is a result of the protests and public outcry. I think it still would have happened without them, but not for at least a few years.

Apologies, I got angry there at a number of posters trying to claim that this was all going to happen anyway and replied directly to yours, when I read it back you were merely only asking a question.

Anyway, look I've listened extensively to interviews with Peter Boylan and he states that it was always a concern of his from day one and he'd brought it up again and again. Now they were operating with joint members from SVGH and The Sisters of Charity don't forget so if it was always going to be handed over then why not tell him that?

I happen to think that he leaked the story to get public support behind it and if he did I say fair play. It's gotten the desired result. Job done as far as I'm concerned.

I'm very happy for all the women of Ireland.

NuMarvel

pilly wrote: »

I'm very happy for all the women of Ireland.

At the end of the day, that's what this comes down to, and I agree 100%. Even if there wasn't going to be any religious interference in the operation of the hospital, the public trust was lost and today's news has done a lot to restore it. There may be new questions as the detail of the new company set up is examined, but at this point, today's news is good news.

Doltanian

The Nuns and Religious orders ran a great health service in Ireland years ago, considering the countries finances and medical treatments available at the time. The HSE today exists today for pigs at the trough, the failed sons and daughters of crony politicians are dumped into cushy managament roles. What is needed is at least 100,000 to be fired from management and administration, hire new nurses and front line staff and pay them properly. Patient care and standards come second fiddle to the mass orgy of waste and incompetence in the HSE today. The Nuns were often vile and evil but they ran a tight ship and alot could be learned from them nowadays.

Hermy

Doltanian wrote: »

The Nuns and Religious orders...

A great health service is not compatible with being vile and evil.

Nor with child trafficking for that matter.

Blazer

Doltanian wrote: »

The Nuns were often vile and evil but they ran a tight ship and alot could be learned from them nowadays.

Christ above, Hitler and Stalin was lovely guys too.
And yes I'm aware of godwins laws but ffs the comment above deserves it.

djPSB

Have to give credit to the Irish people on this one. Only for the public backlash, this would have gone through under the Sisters of Mercy. The government couldn't care less.

About time the Irish people stood up and made their voices heard which hasn't always been the case unfortunately.

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

Hotblack Desiato

Who's going to control this "charity" (inverted commas because it will have massive private healthcare income.)

Not nuns. But no doubt a bunch of lay Opus Dei heads.

This is in no way a victory or an acceptable outcome. A new hospital is being built at vast state expense yet the state will still not own it. We need to put an end to this nonsense of public healthcare facilities being owned, controlled or run by charities who 99% of the time are pursuing their own agenda not the public interest.

aloyisious

I was hoping that Dr Boylan's whistle-blowing, AKA his statement about the "quiet" deal between SVHG and DOH, whereby €300 million of taxpayer funds would be paid over for the construction of a NMH in Dublin and the hospital would NOT be in the ownership of the taxpayer, would have put any back-office deal to a well deserved death. I'll keep my counsel for now until I see which way the wind blows in regard to this new "charity" set-up deal comes into being.

I've taken note that this is the second time that ownership of the "soon to be" new NMH has been linked to a charity and hope that it's eventual birth will be truly something all the women of our country deserve. Political shenanigans abound in what's happened to date and I'm hoping that it won't become involved in the choice by a new Taoiseach on who's to be his choice for the position of MOH on a "you did good as MOH" basis.

Persephone kindness

mrsmags16 wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/sisters-of-charity-to-be-given-new-national-maternity-hospital-1.3052079

Is this a joke?!

No it's Ireland. And it's hardly an isolated case. It's true all over the country and has been for generations.

It was fairly obv this was going to happen if you followed the case.
I know it's not right ...I know ..it's crazy considering the ideal it's tax payers money etc ..but it's the catholic church. Wut you gonna do?

I am not harping on about all nuns. Some are amazing ladies who do great work. This particular order though has a past for not running public services up to par.

Werido

Rather see the nuns run it tbh.

Persephone kindness

Doltanian wrote: »

The Nuns were often vile and evil but they ran a tight ship and alot could be learned from them nowadays.

No they didn't the Vatican bank is always on the brink of bankruptcy and the Franciscan's are on the brink of bankruptcy right now.

What i would say is religious orders differ HUGELY from order to order. Some like the the Loreto Sisters or Jesuits are quite amazing. You have to take them as you find them.

This idea that they are financially savvy is not always true. And fraud is rampant in the US catholic church.

The loreto sister encourage their nuns to take degrees in subjects outside of scripture and theology ..such as educated psychology law accounting etc. They tend to have a lot more skills in their personnel to draw upon.

They also discriminate less in who they accept. My head mistress was a nun ..she was also a fashion model in London and paris ( I know total change) before joining the Loreto sisters doing a degree in maths and science and educational psychology. She has a lot of different experience to draw upon. You don't get that in every order.

Zebra3

To all those who supported the idea of religious orders running parts of the health and education systems, is there anything else we should get them to do? The ESB? An Post?

Jrop

I keep misreading this thread as Mum's get to own the new Maternity Hospital

Hermy

Werido wrote: »

Rather see the nuns run it tbh.

Why?

Call me Al

Jrop wrote: »

I keep misreading this thread as Mum's get to own the new Maternity Hospital

And i keep reading it as "nuns get their own new maternity hospital" LOL!

RobertKK

I suppose it would be better if Marie Stopes ran it...given abortion is the underlying factor for why lefties caused a fuss.

ohnonotgmail

RobertKK wrote: »

I suppose it would be better if Marie Stopes ran it...given abortion is the underlying factor for why lefties caused a fuss.

you just couldnt resist getting a little dig in could you?

pilly

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

you just couldnt resist getting a little dig in could you?

I'd say a lot of people are steaming today over this which makes me very happy.

Osgoodisgood

RobertKK wrote: »

I suppose it would be better if Marie Stopes ran it...given abortion is the underlying factor for why lefties caused a fuss.

No the fuss was about much more than that.
It was about a public hospital responsible for women's health being owned by an organisation with a long history of callous disregard for that very subject. It was also about the more basic question of whether public institutions should be handed over to private organisations at all and if so, under what circumstances and with what controls.

But you know all that right?

Persephone kindness

Persephone kindness wrote: »

No they didn't the Vatican bank is always on the brink of bankruptcy and the Franciscan's are on the brink of bankruptcy right now.

What i would say is religious orders differ HUGELY from order to order. Some like the the Loreto Sisters or Jesuits are quite amazing. You have to take them as you find them.

This idea that they are financially savvy is not always true. And fraud is rampant in the US catholic church.

The loreto sister encourage their nuns to take degrees in subjects outside of scripture and theology ..such as educated psychology law accounting etc. They tend to have a lot more skills in their personnel to draw upon.

They also discriminate less in who they accept. My head mistress was a nun ..she was also a fashion model in London and paris ( I know total change) before joining the Loreto sisters doing a degree in maths and science and educational psychology. She has a lot of different experience to draw upon. You don't get that in every order.

It's nice to read an objective post in this thread.

Orders of Nuns all have their own "ethos", and just as each order is different, so, too, are individual Nuns different.

You get the good, the bad, and the indifferent personalities among them, just like any other group.

Yet, to read some of the posts here, you'd be forgiven for thinking that every Nun who ever lived was guilty of abuse, which common sense dictates is just not rational.

That is neither defending, nor excusing, those Nuns who were guilty of abuse. But automatically treating every Nun as if they were guilty is another form of abuse. It's emotional and psychological abuse.

Worth thinking about?

RobertKK

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

you just couldnt resist getting a little dig in could you?

I just said what we all know was the underlying factor for some in their protest.
Sometimes people rather skip around the truth.

RobertKK

pilly wrote: »

I'd say a lot of people are steaming today over this which makes me very happy.

It is no skin off my nose who runs it.
Just think the concern from many is more to do with abortion than with the nuns.
If the nuns were all for allowing abortion, there would have been none of this debate in my opinion.

ohnonotgmail

RobertKK wrote: »

I just said what we all know was the underlying factor for some in their protest.
Sometimes people rather skip around the truth.

and here was me thinking that it was about the government handing over a public asset to a private institution and letting them decide how it is run. But nice of you to let us know what we were actually thinking.

pilly

RobertKK wrote: »

It is no skin off my nose who runs it.
Just think the concern from many is more to do with abortion than with the nuns.
If the nuns were all for allowing abortion, there would have been none of this debate in my opinion.

If it's no skin off your nose why feel the need to comment so?

RobertKK

Osgoodisgood wrote: »

No the fuss was about much more than that.
It was about a public hospital responsible for women's health being owned by an organisation with a long history of callous disregard for that very subject. It was also about the more basic question of whether public institutions should be handed over to private organisations at all and if so, under what circumstances and with what controls.

But you know all that right?

Women's health is such a generic term, what you mean is the state handing over the running of a hospital to a group who oppose abortion and this is fundamentally where the issue lies in regards to "women's health" in this debate.