The NMH at St. Vincents

uptherebels

markodaly wrote: »

It is not I who puts forward the argument that the bible is actually referenced as a medical manual. Run along now.

You seem to not know the difference between based on and referenced as

Are you saying their objection to certain medical procedures is based on something other than their faith which in turn is based on the Bible? Or do they make it up as they go along?
Run along? Why? Don't you like a spotlight being put on the disdain that the church has for people's medical care that doesn't confirm to their beliefs.

uptherebels

markodaly wrote: »

Quite a claim since the only people providing both for until about the 1950's was the church.

Did you know the Dept. of Social welfare did not even exist until the 1940's? Guess who was stepping into the breach, warts and all. People urgently need a history lesson.

I think your post should be say "The Catholic Church Irish State has a terrible record with regard to health and education since the foundation of the state. They need to step away from both."

And what was the biggest influencing force on the state since it's foundation? You forget that the state was comprised mostly of people beholden to the church. Including those that were in charge.
There is a difference between the state doing a bad job and the church stepping in and the church wanting to control education and medical care to maintain their influence and power.
The state doesn't need to step away.The church just need to open it own purse strings and stop being a leech.

conorhal

uptherebels wrote: »

And what was the biggest influencing force on the state since it's foundation? You forget that the state was comprised mostly of people beholden to the church. Including those that were in charge.
There is a difference between the state doing a bad job and the church stepping in and the church wanting to control education and medical care to maintain their influence and power.
The state doesn't need to step away.The church just need to open it own purse strings and stop being a leech.

We're up to the same 'ol hi-jinks today though. The governments mindset is STILL 'avoid responsibility for the provision of services at all costs'.

If you think TUSLA or whatever quango, NGO or corporate substitute they're handing off responsibility to these days are much better then the church, you're in for a shock. But I guess most of us will be feigning 'shock and dismay' in another 30years at future tribunal reports into their operation.

To stay on topic however, I wonder how much input religious orders have into such trusts these days. Since most of these nuns are in their 70's and 80's my guess would be very little.
An example of this would be a charity run by a religious order that I recently stopped supporting.
They used to do good work, now ....eh.. well I suppose they still do, but the brothers that ran it all aged out and were slowly replaced by very well paid slick corporate managerial types.
Suddenly it was a charity that had a 'marketing and PR department' among other things and I determined that whatever money I was giving was being spent in areas far from it's core aims. It might have a religious order in the title but the reality is that those in charge only play on that fact when shaking a tin at a church gate.

ted1

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

The recent history of religious orders in Ireland, putting protecting their assets above anything else including vulnerable people and kids, tells you everything you need to know.

It's all about money and power with that lot, including setting up fake "trusts" to shield their assets from victims and the state

You can't trust a "trust", and lying for Jesus is called "mental reservation".

What assets are these ? Havn’t they sold many if the assets only fit the public to protest against developments. E.g the fields they sold adjoining st Ann’s park and in clonskeagh in Dublin

ted1

uptherebels wrote: »

Why doesn't that religious order, build,staff and fund a religious hospital of their own? 1. it's patrons/patients would be limited and wouldn't be able to be self sufficient.
2. Money only flows one way in the church .
3. They wouldn't be able to force their beliefs on others.

You realise you want people to not go to state funded hospitals? The hospitals that are there for the whole population, not just for the pushing of a church agenda.

They have built and ran the best hospitals in Ireland.

ted1

Brixton Unsightly Warfare wrote: »

It matters when their religious beliefs are deemed more important than my health. Do you know that the mater hospital won’t prescribe the pill to women? Do you honestly think the National maternity hospital - the biggest in the country - will perform abortions, advise mothers on contraception or sterilize women of children bearing age upon request? Like **** they will. There’s a reason why they’re fighting to rule the National maternity hospital. I think women suffered enough with anti natal care and post natal care at the hands of the nuns, thanks.

Yes, it has already being clarified that abortions etc will be carried out there.

volchitsa

ted1 wrote: »

Yes, it has already being clarified that abortions etc will be carried out there.

What we can't find out is whether the order that own the land the hospital is on have also agreed to that though, or whether they're waiting until it's too late to change things to announce that their consciences won't allow it.

uptherebels

ted1 wrote: »

They have built and ran the best hospitals in Ireland.

Really? Where did the money for the buildings and to pay the staff come from?
Who ran the hospitals they were in competition with for the "best" title?
You can't really call hospitals where women die because "this is a Catholic country" as the top of any category

uptherebels

ted1 wrote: »

What assets are these ? Havn’t they sold many if the assets only fit the public to protest against developments. E.g the fields they sold adjoining st Ann’s park and in clonskeagh in Dublin

I think it's the millions they put in trusts for...
Wait for it....
the upkeep of graveyards
among other things.

Hotblack Desiato

ted1 wrote: »

What assets are these ? Havn’t they sold many if the assets only fit the public to protest against developments. E.g the fields they sold adjoining st Ann’s park and in clonskeagh in Dublin

Billions in property and private hospitals.

Hotblack Desiato

ted1 wrote: »

Yes, it has already being clarified that abortions etc will be carried out there.

Yeah right. There's not a catholic owned hospital in the world that does.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

Hahah abortions carried out in catholic run hospitals, stop it now. The sex education given in catholic secondary schools in the mid 2000s was “don’t have boyfriends you’re too young”, and the sexual health teacher was only allowed give out sanitary pads during the talk in 3rd year, not tampons.

ted1

uptherebels wrote: »

You can't really call hospitals where women die because "this is a Catholic country" as the top of any category

I didn’t I’m talking about st.vincents in Dublin.

ted1

Brixton Unsightly Warfare wrote: »

Hahah abortions carried out in catholic run hospitals, stop it now. The sex education given in catholic secondary schools in the mid 2000s was “don’t have boyfriends you’re too young”, and the sexual health teacher was only allowed give out sanitary pads during the talk in 3rd year, not tampons.

I went to a catholic secondary school. Our sex Ed was pretty good. Condons and other birth control covered. No need for tampons etc in a boys school

uptherebels

ted1 wrote: »

I didn’t I’m talking about st.vincents in Dublin.

You said hospitalS.
Any comment on the rest of my post?
Was it built and is it funded by the church?

NuMarvel

ted1 wrote: »

They have built and ran the best hospitals in Ireland.

Out of curiosity, what's your source for this?

markodaly

gctest50 wrote: »

Done that way on purpose by DeValera and his paedo buddy Fr John Charles McQuaid

Was McQuaid an actual pedophile or do you like being provocative.

markodaly

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

You seem to be suggesting that there was no state system of social welfare prior to the Dept being established. Obviously thats completely untrue.

Didn't say that at all however, its very close to the truth.

To return the serve so to speak, posters here seem to be intentionally ignorant of the fact that the Irish state was willfully underfunding both health, education and social welfare for decades, leading to religious orders picking up the vast majority of the tab. This is just a historical fact.

I'm sure that was part of 'da conspiracy'. LOLZ

markodaly

conorhal wrote: »

We're up to the same 'ol hi-jinks today though. The governments mindset is STILL 'avoid responsibility for the provision of services at all costs'.

If you think TUSLA or whatever quango, NGO or corporate substitute they're handing off responsibility to these days are much better then the church, you're in for a shock. But I guess most of us will be feigning 'shock and dismay' in another 30years at future tribunal reports into their operation.

Yeap, as if those posters actually really cared about children and the outcomes for them.

26 children in state care died in 2014.
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/record-26-children-died-while-in-state-care-34238804.html

Tusla think they are not to blame of course.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/children-s-deaths-not-related-to-quality-of-tusla-s-care-1.2447695

As someone who has had dealings with Tusla, they are next to useless.

To stay on topic however, I wonder how much input religious orders have into such trusts these days. Since most of these nuns are in their 70's and 80's my guess would be very little.

Very very little, would be my guess but I suppose using the term " 'nuns' will own hospital" sells a lot more paper and clicks than " 'lay people' will own hospital" . But who cares for accuracy these days when outrage sells.

There is a very very very simple solution. The state buys them out.

uptherebels

markodaly wrote: »

Yeap, as if those posters actually really cared about children and the outcomes for them.
.

Just like the Catholic church so!

jimd2

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Maybe your life revolves around the pub mate, mine doesn't.

I'm not organising the event. If you're happy to have nuns controlling healthcare funded by taxpayers, then don't go.

Well how did your big (well organised and communicated) protest go today?

I see that someone that knows a bit about these things says that all this scaremongering about the nuns is incorrect and damaging.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/dr-rhona-mahony-says-nuns-will-not-run-new-maternity-hospital-1.3725039

Will you call off the hounds now Hotblack? Somehow I dont think so.

Hotblack Desiato

markodaly wrote: »

To return the serve so to speak, posters here seem to be intentionally ignorant of the fact that the Irish state was willfully underfunding both health, education and social welfare for decades, leading to religious orders picking up the vast majority of the tab. This is just a historical fact.

This is bullsh!t. The Catholic Church profited from "mother and baby" homes, via the allowance they were paid by the local council for every mother and child resident in these homes (even the dead children they "neglected" to tell the local authority about), the money they extorted from the parents of these women on the grounds of keeping their family's "shame" silent, and of course via the kidnapping and illegal selling of babies to the lucrative domestic and US market of middle class childless Catholics.

Hotblack Desiato

Rhona Mahony is professionally far too close for comfort to the nuns. Sorry, she may be pro-choice but on this question she is far from neutral. I don't trust a nun farther than I could throw one, and "trusts" are a well established means for Catholic Church organisations to maintain control of schools and hospitals while shielding their finances from the consequences of their abuses.

Hotblack Desiato

jimd2 wrote: »

Well how did your big (well organised and communicated) protest go today?

Either you are part of the solution, or part of the problem. It's clear where you stand. But it went great despite the bad weather. We will prevail and the catholic abuse apologists will end up in the dustbin of history.



Coverage on RTE1, TG4 and Virgin Media

Tigerbaby

and would you trust our new "progressive" emperors to do anything better than the Nuns?

what "perfect" solution can you apply?

and why do the people in the photo hide behind assinine smileys?

Hotblack Desiato

Are you really that stupid to ask whether it's better that ministers under democratic control run our health and education services rather than bishops under no democratic control?

We're paying for it either way. The "church" has done nothing in Ireland for free. Teachers, nurses, doctors, all paid for by the state but the state and its taxpayers weren't in control, the church was.

Graces7

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

This is bullsh!t. The Catholic Church profited from "mother and baby" homes, via the allowance they were paid by the local council for every mother and child resident in these homes (even the dead children they "neglected" to tell the local authority about), the money they extorted from the parents of these women on the grounds of keeping their family's "shame" silent, and of course via the kidnapping and illegal selling of babies to the lucrative domestic and US market of middle class childless Catholics.

actually if you are referring to Tuam, Galway coco paid them a fiver for every "burial."

Hotblack Desiato

Is that the burials which were recorded, or the approx 700 burials which were not?

gctest50

Graces7 wrote: »

actually if you are referring to Tuam, Galway coco paid them a fiver for every "burial."

And how much for each of the babies the scum didn't kill and sold to USA etc ?

Graces7

jimd2 wrote: »

Well how did your big (well organised and communicated) protest go today?

I see that someone that knows a bit about these things says that all this scaremongering about the nuns is incorrect and damaging.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/dr-rhona-mahony-says-nuns-will-not-run-new-maternity-hospital-1.3725039

Will you call off the hounds now Hotblack? Somehow I dont think so.

Maybe one day he will realise that there are very few Sisters of Charity left to run anything? Average age of Religious Sisters is well over 80 and rising.