The NMH at St. Vincents

markodaly

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

This is bullsh!t. The Catholic Church profited from "mother and baby" homes, via the allowance they were paid by the local council for every mother and child resident in these homes (even the dead children they "neglected" to tell the local authority about), the money they extorted from the parents of these women on the grounds of keeping their

Oh, this is another one of those cute soundbytes but when you look at the actual evidence, it turns out to be as you say, bullsh!t.

Anyone is free to look at the money local authorities sent religious orders and realise they were woefully underfunded for decades.

We today in 2018 underfund the provisioning of children's health and education. Just look at the GDP figures in comparison to EU averages, yet at the foundation at the state, in 1923 apparently, local authorities were sending bucket loads of cash to religious orders that we could well afford... LOLZ.

via the kidnapping and illegal selling of babies to the lucrative domestic and US market of middle class childless Catholics.

I must have missed the time nuns were driving around Ireland and lifting kids of Irish streets and shoving them into vans. Again a cute soundbyte for the perpetually offended to gather around.

markodaly

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

RI don't trust a nun farther than I could throw one, .

Ah so you are a bigot? Well, at least you admit it.

markodaly

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

The "church" has done nothing in Ireland for free. Teachers, nurses, doctors, all paid for by the state but the state and its taxpayers weren't in control, the church was.

This is of course factually incorrect. I guess the progressives are also exploiting this post-truth world.

Graces7

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Is that the burials which were recorded, or the approx 700 burials which were not?

No; the council were complicit in the so called "burials". Which is why the housing estate is shaped the odd way it is, to avoid the builders digging up bodies..

The death certs were all that was needed

Also the locals were complicit and involved and knew .

Have you even read the reports etc?

Graces7

markodaly wrote: »

Oh, this is another one of those cute soundbytes but when you look at the actual evidence, it turns out to be as you say, bullsh!t.

Anyone is free to look at the money local authorities sent religious orders and realise they were woefully underfunded for decades.

We today in 2018 underfund the provisioning of children's health and education. Just look at the GDP figures in comparison to EU averages, yet at the foundation at the state, in 1923 apparently, local authorities were sending bucket loads of cash to religious orders that we could well afford... LOLZ.



I must have missed the time nuns were driving around Ireland and lifting kids of Irish streets and shoving them into vans. Again a cute soundbyte for the perpetually offended to gather around.

Actually they did just that . In Clonakility, a well documented and not unusual case of a child on a lane outside the farm who was taken up by the Sisters. Locals were scared to let kids out of their sight; they were accused of neglect.

jimd2

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Rhona Mahony is professionally far too close for comfort to the nuns. Sorry, she may be pro-choice but on this question she is far from neutral. I don't trust a nun farther than I could throw one, and "trusts" are a well established means for Catholic Church organisations to maintain control of schools and hospitals while shielding their finances from the consequences of their abuses.

Hot black,

As I suspected you conveniently ignore the opinion and knowledge of a person very close to and working in the area.

Did you fully read the article that I linked? i.e the part where she said that there will be no involvement of the sister of charity whatsoever in the running of the hospital?

Regarding your comment there about nuns my own experience with nuns would be more positive than what you are saying there. Any nuns I have had an involvement with were good people. Maybe you have had an extremely bad experience and this is causing your tunnel vision but I struggle to understand how anyone in this country could rationally conclude that all nuns are evil as you are stating here.

volchitsa

jimd2 wrote: »

Hot black,

As I suspected you conveniently ignore the opinion and knowledge of a person very close to and working in the area.

Did you fully read the article that I linked? i.e the part where she said that there will be no involvement of the sister of charity whatsoever in the running of the hospital?

Would you care to hazard a guess as to why no spokesperson for the Sisters of Charity has ever confirmed that they share the same views on the issue as Dr Mahony?

Especially as Bishop Kevin Doran has said the opposite.

Regarding your comment there about nuns my own experience with nuns would be more positive than what you are saying there. Any nuns I have had an involvement with were good people. Maybe you have had an extremely bad experience and this is causing your tunnel vision but I struggle to understand how anyone in this country could rationally conclude that all nuns are evil as you are stating here.

Personally I dont think any private body should be given ownership, however nominal, of a state funded service.

That it's a religious order is why it's still on the cards, IMO, as no other group would be considered for such an extraordinary gift in the first place, but basically it should not be done no matter who the group is.

Graces7

jimd2 wrote: »

Hot black,

As I suspected you conveniently ignore the opinion and knowledge of a person very close to and working in the area.

Did you fully read the article that I linked? i.e the part where she said that there will be no involvement of the sister of charity whatsoever in the running of the hospital?

Regarding your comment there about nuns my own experience with nuns would be more positive than what you are saying there. Any nuns I have had an involvement with were good people. Maybe you have had an extremely bad experience and this is causing your tunnel vision but I struggle to understand how anyone in this country could rationally conclude that all nuns are evil as you are stating here.

Clearly a bad time to affect so radically?

I owe my sanity and maybe my life to Poor Clare Nuns. Blameless holy women of God always there, always ready to listen and comfort and pray and as troubled by the bad as we are.

gctest50

Graces7 wrote: »

No; the council were complicit in the so called "burials". Which is why the housing estate is shaped the odd way it is, to avoid the builders digging up bodies..

The death certs were all that was needed

Also the locals were complicit and involved and knew .

Have you even read the reports etc?

And who turned people at the time against their own daughters were pregnant ?

Catholic Church filth that's who

Because they could sell the babies

Graces7

Graces7 wrote: »

Clearly a bad time to affect so radically?

I owe my sanity and maybe my life to Poor Clare Nuns. Blameless holy women of God always there, always ready to listen and comfort and pray and as troubled by the bad as we are.

Recent history indicates otherwise, appalling scandal after scandal unearthed.

whisky_galore

How many actual "nuns" are even left in the country I wonder?

It's not like it's a career choice for the last 20/30 years, they're a dying breed.

volchitsa

markodaly wrote: »

This is of course factually incorrect. I guess the progressives are also exploiting this post-truth world.

Anything the religious orders gave as charity was always mere redistribution from other Irish people. None of it was ever the Vatican's money, despite the fact that the Vatican has literally uncounted millions.

Nor did teaching or nursing orders work for free - the state paid them the normal rate.

Of course the orders were happy to take the credit, though.

whisky_galore

volchitsa wrote: »

Anything the religious orders gave as charity was always mere redistribution from other Irish people. None of it was ever the Vatican's money, despite the fact that the Vatican has literally uncounted millions.

Nor did teaching or nursing orders work for free - the state paid them the normal rate.

Of course the orders were happy to take the credit, though.

The state subcontracted all this out to religious, both sides were happy with the arrangement. And the public, until very recently, was quite happy too.

markodaly

Graces7 wrote: »

Actually they did just that . In Clonakility, a well documented and not unusual case of a child on a lane outside the farm who was taken up by the Sisters. Locals were scared to let kids out of their sight; they were accused of neglect.

Can you share me some more information on this 'well' documented case?

markodaly

jimd2 wrote: »

I struggle to understand how anyone in this country could rationally conclude that all nuns are evil as you are stating here.

Of course, such a viewpoint is not only ridiculous but also hateful and bigoted.
If anyone said that all X are [insert pejorative] they would be rightly told they are a bigot.

However, it's OK to call all nuns or prest's [insert pejortive] for some reason.

markodaly

volchitsa wrote: »

Anything the religious orders gave as charity was always mere redistribution from other Irish people. None of it was ever the Vatican's money, despite the fact that the Vatican has literally uncounted millions.

Nor did teaching or nursing orders work for free - the state paid them the normal rate.

Of course the orders were happy to take the credit, though.

When did the state start paying teachers?

EDIT:
For the record, I have not much time for the Vatican and any of their ilk. The point, however, is that there was an Irish Catholic Church long before there was Roman Catholic Church.

Hating the Vatican and giving local Irish Catholic's grief over it is akin to hating the FAI and giving the local u-11's soccer coach grief because John Delany is an ass.

uptherebels

markodaly wrote: »

When did the state start paying teachers?

EDIT:
For the record, I have not much time for the Vatican and any of their ilk. The point, however, is that there was an Irish Catholic Church long before there was Roman Catholic Church.

Hating the Vatican and giving local Irish Catholic's grief over it is akin to hating the FAI and giving the local u-11's soccer coach grief because John Delany is an ass.

Was it the Irish part of the Catholic church selling babies,putting them in septic tanks and covering for paedo priests in Ireland? Or did I imagine that?

nullzero

markodaly wrote: »

When did the state start paying teachers?

EDIT:
For the record, I have not much time for the Vatican and any of their ilk. The point, however, is that there was an Irish Catholic Church long before there was Roman Catholic Church.

Hating the Vatican and giving local Irish Catholic's grief over it is akin to hating the FAI and giving the local u-11's soccer coach grief because John Delany is an ass.

The Catholic Church has always been based in Rome. What is/was the Irish Catholic Church?

gctest50

“Rhona Mahony is quite wrong to say Canon Law has no role in maternity hospital discussion. The nuns cannot alienate the property without Church approval.”

- Michael Kelly, editor of The Irish Catholic

Something isn't quite right

markodaly

nullzero wrote: »

The Catholic Church has always been based in Rome. What is/was the Irish Catholic Church?

Roman Catholicism essentially came over with the Normans in the late 1100's, while Christianity came to Ireland 600-700 years before that.

nullzero

markodaly wrote: »

Roman Catholicism essentially came over with the Normans in the late 1200's, while Christianity came to Ireland 600-700 years before that.

Christianity in Western Europe pre reformation was Catholicism.

You referred to it as the "irish CATHOLIC Church".

volchitsa

markodaly wrote: »

When did the state start paying teachers?

You're joking, right?

markodaly wrote: »

EDIT:
For the record, I have not much time for the Vatican and any of their ilk. The point, however, is that there was an Irish Catholic Church long before there was Roman Catholic Church.

Hating the Vatican and giving local Irish Catholic's grief over it is akin to hating the FAI and giving the local u-11's soccer coach grief because John Delany is an ass.

No it's really not. :rolleyes:

markodaly

nullzero wrote: »

Christianity in Western Europe pre reformation was Catholicism.

Yet, as I have demonstrated, Rome had no real authority on Irish Christians until the Normans arrived in the 1100's.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synod_of_R%C3%A1th_Breasail
Many scholars say that the Synod of Ráth Breasail was the start of Roman power over the church.

markodaly

volchitsa wrote: »

You're joking, right?

Not at all, when did the state start paying religious orders to teach?
It should be a simple answer.

nullzero

markodaly wrote: »

Yet, as I have demonstrated, Rome had no real authority on Irish Christians until the Normans arrived in the 1100's.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synod_of_R%C3%A1th_Breasail
Many scholars say that the Synod of Ráth Breasail was the start of Roman power over the church.

The belief system was the Catholic faith. How could the church dictate directly from Rome to a place as far flung as Ireland at that time?
The fact is the Irish practiced the Catholic faith even if the bureaucracy of the church was involved in every day life in the country.
You stated there was an "irish CATHOLIC Church" long before the roman Catholic Church. Now you're claiming there was no Catholicism in Ireland before the Norman invasion. Were we practicing Russian or Greek orthodox Christianity or something?
You're saying one thing and then the other, make your mind up.

volchitsa

markodaly wrote: »

Not at all, when did the state start paying religious orders to teach?
It should be a simple answer.

Back in the 18th century probably. But more to the point, it's the case now.
For example :

Virtually all state-funded primary schools — almost 97 percent — are under church control. Irish law allows schools under church control to consider religion the main factor in admissions.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland

You know what state funded, means, right?

uptherebels

markodaly wrote: »

Not at all, when did the state start paying religious orders to teach?
It should be a simple answer.

You mean when we're teachers(who happened to be nuns and priests) salaries paid by the government? I'd imagine when national schools were established in the 1830's

markodaly

volchitsa wrote: »

Back in the 18th century probably.

So you don't know. Which is fine by the way. But to that extent, you then concede the point that the state were always paying teachers and nurses, when in fact they weren't for much of the history of this Island.

You know what state funded, means, right?

Yes, I do. Again, I am not happy with that situation but again a simple solution. Buy the properties that these schools own.

nullzero

markodaly wrote: »

EDIT:
For the record, I have not much time for the Vatican and any of their ilk. The point, however, is that there was an Irish Catholic Church long before there was Roman Catholic Church.

____________________________________________

Roman Catholicism essentially came over with the Normans in the late 1100's, while Christianity came to Ireland 600-700 years before that.

My mind is blown.

Seth Brundle

volchitsa wrote: »

Anything the religious orders gave as charity was always mere redistribution from other Irish people. None of it was ever the Vatican's money, despite the fact that the Vatican has literally uncounted millions.

I doubt the RCC have uncounted millions given that as money is their most favourite thing they'll have counted it many many times