The NMH at St. Vincents

markodaly

From RTE

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2020/0508/1137261-st-vincents-hospital-sisters-of-charity/

The order confirmed that it has received approval from the Holy See to transfer the ownership of the site worth some €200m and it will be "gifted" to the people of Ireland.

Probably the right thing to do, but I do think there will still be detractors and moaners.
Anyway, the state is €200 Million richer for it.

aloyisious

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Eh???

It was a quote from himself. He transferred to his just retired-from-job from the newsdesk so he probably had to forgo breaking breaking-news stories back then as part of the move.

NuMarvel

I think Sean O'Rourke and RTE in general got the wrong end of the stick. The transfer of ownership is to a new charity, not to the State.

Strangely enough, that's in the body of RTE's own article above, though it may have been added after the article was first posted. The Sisters statement said the approval would allow

"the completion of transfer of ownership of the St Vincent's Healthcare Group site from the Congregation to a new, independent, charitable body to be called St Vincent’s Holdings CLG.

"The new St Vincent’s Holdings CLG will continue to be a 'not for profit' organisation."

This has always been their plan, and I don't think anything's changed.

My recollection is that the charity would then lease the land for the new hospital to the State for 99 years, and the State would build and retain ownership of the new hospital. So we'll own the building but not the land. I don't think those plans have been finalised or formally agreed, but I imagine the delay in Vatican approval for the land transfer probably held that up.

EDIT: Here's the Order's statement, and I can totally see why SO'R said what he said. That headline alone is gobsmacking. It's only in a later paragraph that they mention that a charity, not the State will be getting the lands.

Still, I'm not sure why RTE, and others, haven't updated their headlines now that they've had a chance to analyse the press release in detail.

Religious Sisters of Charity to Gift to People of Ireland Lands at St Vincent’s Healthcare Group to the Value of €200 million.

The Religious Sisters of Charity today confirmed it has received approval from the Holy See to transfer ownership of St Vincent’s Healthcare Group. The Religious Sisters of Charity state they intend to gift lands at the St Vincent’s Healthcare Group sites worth some €200 million. The Religious Sisters of Charity hope that the transfer can now be concluded without undue delays.

cj maxx

NuMarvel wrote: »

I think Sean O'Rourke and RTE in general got the wrong end of the stick. The transfer of ownership is to a new charity, not to the State.

Strangely enough, that's in the body of RTE's own article above, though it may have been added after the article was first posted. The Sisters statement said the approval would allow


This has always been their plan, and I don't think anything's changed.

My recollection is that the charity would then lease the land for the new hospital to the State for 99 years, and the State would build and retain ownership of the new hospital. So we'll own the building but not the land. I don't think those plans have been finalised or formally agreed, but I imagine the delay in Vatican approval for the land transfer probably held that up.

Fook that.
Slap a compulsory purchase order on it , and on every hospital and school in the country irrespective of religious ethos.
And the price should be either zero are pay the state to take it.

NuMarvel

cj maxx wrote: »

Fook that.
Slap a compulsory purchase order on it , and on every hospital and school in the country irrespective of religious ethos.
And the price should be either zero are pay the state to take it.

No thanks. I completely understand why people might feel that way, but the State would be brought to court quicker than you could say Hail Mary, and we would lose. So as well as having to pay for the property, we'd have also ended up forking out more money on unnecessary legal costs.

And in the off chance we would win, I really don't think the State being able to seize private property on a whim is a precedent we want to set.

cj maxx

True but something needs to change. Churches own the school buildings and land though it's maintained by the the state at no cost to the churches.
Staff are paid by the state, transport to and from school is by the state. The state pays for everything and has built and funded the schools. Yet the churches claim ownership. I think it really shouldn't be too hard to persuade the churches to hand over ownership. How are the abuse reparations coming along ? Any money forthcoming from Rome?

Zebra3

NuMarvel wrote: »

No thanks. I completely understand why people might feel that way, but the State would be brought to court quicker than you could say Hail Mary, and we would lose. So as well as having to pay for the property, we'd have also ended up forking out more money on unnecessary legal costs.

And in the off chance we would win, I really don't think the State being able to seize private property on a whim is a precedent we want to set.

RC church is a criminal organisation.

Systematic cover up of widespread child rape.

Like any criminal organisation, seize their assets.

end of the road

Zebra3 wrote: »

RC church is a criminal organisation.

Systematic cover up of widespread child rape.

Like any criminal organisation, seize their assets.

i would imagine that isn't possible in this case, as the cc is not an illegal organisation, but rather an organisation which has a problem with criminality.
if you want to take their properties, i would imagine it would have to be shown that the intent of the organisation in general is and was to commit crime, and that was the reason it was set up in the first place, it would also have to be shown i would imagine that the organisation gained those properties via criminal means and or for the purposes of committing criminality or hiding criminal gains, for which saying they have had lots of criminals within and have covered for criminals probably may not necessarily be enough in itself, i would imagine it would have to be shown that it was demanded from the top of the organisation that criminal priests and nuns should be protected and who knows how far one would have to go back to try and find that out.
realistically it's a mix of they built some buildings and the state gifted others to them, and i would expect any investigation to verify what may have been whatever would probably cost a serious amount of money and require a serious amount of manpower, and even then it's likely nothing tangible would be found and there would be no guarantee the government would be able to get an order to simply take the properties at the end of it all, probably unlikely i would imagine.
listen i have no time for the cc myself, but we have to be realistic in what is actually achieveable here.

Geuze

cj maxx wrote: »

True but something needs to change. Churches own the school buildings and land though it's maintained by the the state at no cost to the churches.
?

Please note that the people of Ireland, through their parishes, own the schools.

MrMusician18

cj maxx wrote: »

Fook that.
Slap a compulsory purchase order on it , and on every hospital and school in the country irrespective of religious ethos.
And the price should be either zero are pay the state to take it.

The state would end up paying €200m if it was CPO'd.

Brilliant idea

Geuze

Sad to see the nuns pull out of healthcare.

I was in the Mater hospital last year, an oasis of peace, clean, quiet, credit to the nuns.

Although I read recently, the nuns sold it?

I once taught VEC students, Lord Help us the apathy from them, later I taught convent girls, the hands were leaping up in enthusiasm.

I dream of a Jesuit education for my children.

da_miser

School in Greystones was supposed to be non denomination, Catholic church said OK, at the very last minute the local Protestant church jumped in , members on school board voted to make it a Protestant school.
Thats a fact, but as we all know its only cool & trendy to bash the catholic church.
Its just trendy right now to bash the Catholic Church, same gimps promote anti Catholic/christian viewpoint despite the alternative been fascism

Gael23

There was no vomiting bugs or MRSA when the nuns ran hospitals

cj maxx

MrMusician18 wrote: »

The state would end up paying €200m if it was CPO'd.

Brilliant idea

200 million would be a good price !

end of the road

cj maxx wrote: »

200 million would be a good price !

that would just be for 1 plot of land not the whole lot.
the reality is we would never be able to afford to buy all of the land the cc owns.

Annasopra

da_miser wrote: »

School in Greystones was supposed to be non denomination, Catholic church said OK, at the very last minute the local Protestant church jumped in , members on school board voted to make it a Protestant school.
Thats a fact

No

That is not a fact at all. The truth/facts are very different from everuthing you posted.

NuMarvel

Geuze wrote: »

Sad to see the nuns pull out of healthcare.

I was in the Mater hospital last year, an oasis of peace, clean, quiet, credit to the nuns.

Although I read recently, the nuns sold it?

The nuns have nothing to do with the day to day running of the Mater, and are no longer on the board of the hospital either.

What you experienced is down to front line staff, such as nurses, porters, domestic workers and others.

end of the road wrote: »

that would just be for 1 plot of land not the whole lot.
the reality is we would never be able to afford to buy all of the land the cc owns.

The €200 million valuation is for the St Vincent's group, not just Vincent's public hospital. The group has Vincent's public, Vincent's private, and Michael's in Dun Laoghaire.

We may not be able to afford to buy all the properties owned by the church and religious orders (and I don't think MrMusician was suggesting that either), but €200 million for 3 hospitals of over 900 beds in total, and surrounding lands, sounds like a steal to me. Especially when we fund the operation of two of them anyway.

Of course, this is moot, because none of the parties involved are interested in the State buying the land or the business.

markodaly

Surprised but not surprised at the lack of debate on the latest development.
However, I think it shows that people are often more interested in giving out rather than accepting something positive.

Hotblack Desiato

markodaly wrote: »

Surprised but not surprised at the lack of debate on the latest development.
However, I think it shows that people are often more interested in giving out rather than accepting something positive.

Pretending that something is being given to the state, when in fact it's being given to a "charity" set up by the religious order, is not something positive.

It'd be worth paying them the €200m just to tell them to FOAD and never come back.

Hotblack Desiato

Geuze wrote: »

Please note that the people of Ireland, through their parishes, own the schools.

Did you type that horseshít with a straight face?

How did that work out for the schools in south Dublin where the Christian Brothers sold their playing fields out from under both the Edmund Rice Schools Trust and the schools themselves?

Hotblack Desiato

da_miser wrote: »

School in Greystones was supposed to be non denomination, Catholic church said OK, at the very last minute the local Protestant church jumped in , members on school board voted to make it a Protestant school.

Massive issue with that school

Catholic church had nothing to do with it, it was never going to be an RC school as they were catered for already

CoI lied to parents before the patronage vote, saying that they would not give an advantage in admissions to the protestant religion, then of course the CoI did exactly that in the admissions policy once they had control of the school and it was too late for anyone to do anything about it

This was a school built entirely with State funds, on State owned lands. It's a fcuking disgrace. :mad:

Thats a fact, but as we all know its only cool & trendy to bash the catholic church.
Its just trendy right now to bash the Catholic Church, same gimps promote anti Catholic/christian viewpoint despite the alternative been fascism

:rolleyes:
Yeah it's not as if they've been involved with massive abuse up to and including murder, and continue to cover it all up.
As for fascism, RCC was a big fan of that, enabled Hitler to seize power, and still supports the far-right Franco apologists in Spain.

NuMarvel

markodaly wrote: »

Surprised but not surprised at the lack of debate on the latest development.
However, I think it shows that people are often more interested in giving out rather than accepting something positive.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, this latest development has been the plan for quite sometime, so there's nothing new to discuss.

Unless you want to discuss why the order were so misleading in their press release?

sabat

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

As for fascism, RCC was a big fan of that, enabled Hitler to seize power,

Ok we get it, you don't like Catholicism but you don't have to lie.

Hotblack Desiato

sabat wrote: »

Ok we get it, you don't like Catholicism but you don't have to lie.

I wasn't talking about the electorate, at all.

A little history lesson you wouldn't have got in a catholic school :

In 1933 Hitler needed a two-thirds majority to pass the Enabling Act which would enable him to suspend parliament and rule by decree, i.e. become dictator. He needed votes from other parties to do this, the Catholic Centre Party (led by a priest) voted to enable Hitler to seize absolute power.

A matter of weeks later, Hitler signed his first international treaty with the Vatican, which is still in force to this day.

markodaly

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Pretending that something is being given to the state, when in fact it's being given to a "charity" set up by the religious order, is not something positive.

It'd be worth paying them the €200m just to tell them to FOAD and never come back.

Well, thank God, you are not the Minister of Finance so, as that would truly be a waste of money.

However, I am not surprised by your attitude. Looking a gift horse in the mouth.

s1ippy

mrsmags16 wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/sisters-of-charity-to-be-given-new-national-maternity-hospital-1.3052079

Is this a joke?!

I haven't read the thread just the title and first post but shur what use would a nun have for a maternity hospital?

markodaly

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

A little history lesson you wouldn't have got in a catholic school :

And your history lesson is equally not biased and prejudiced?

Come off it, you love nothing more than ranting and raving about all things RCC.

I am no fan of the RCC myself, but I am not an extremist either when it comes to them.

Hotblack Desiato

markodaly wrote: »

And your history lesson is equally not biased and prejudiced?

Are you denying the historical fact that the Catholic Centre Party voted for Hitler to gain absolute power?

Come off it, you love nothing more than ranting and raving about all things RCC.

Attack the post, not the poster.
I'd love it if I no longer had anything to give out about about the RCC, but given their continued disgraceful actions and abuse of state funds to further their own ends, I'll be kept going for a long time yet.

I am no fan of the RCC myself, but I am not an extremist either when it comes to them.

You're "no fan of the RCC" yet continually post on this thread attacking (ineptly) those who are opposed to nuns controlling the hospital.That just doesn't add up.

Hotblack Desiato

markodaly wrote: »

Well, thank God, you are not the Minister of Finance so, as that would truly be a waste of money.

However, I am not surprised by your attitude. Looking a gift horse in the mouth.

Hmmmm.........

markodaly wrote: »

I have mentioned a few times now, why don't the state buy the land?

Hotblack Desiato

s1ippy wrote: »

I haven't read the thread just the title and first post but shur what use would a nun have for a maternity hospital?

Stopping women having abortions, sterilisations, getting contraception, etc.