The NMH at St. Vincents

ohnonotgmail

infogiver wrote: »

Yes of course.
If the poster is going to disqualify candidates for jobs in the hospital based on the fact that their religious persuasion prohibits abortions then you'll have to disqualify all Catholics Muslims and Orthodox Jews.
You do realise that all 3 of these religions prohibit abortion?
And also that the equality act says anyway you can't discriminate against someone because of their religion ?

perhaps you did read it but decided to ignore and go off on a little rant of your own? that is the only explanation for what you posted. I'll quote what i posted again so you have a chance to read it again.

If they insist on imposing their catholic ethos on patients then perhaps we can do without them?

volchitsa

One eyed Jack wrote: »

volchista you deserve the courtesy of a reply if only to tell you that I won't be further engaging in any discussion surrounding the case of Savita Halappanavar in a thread which isn't about the death of Savita Halappanavar. I admit I got side-tracked later in the thread about the broader issue of religiosity in Ireland, and the thread isn't about that either, so I won't be engaging on that any further either. The threads end up in a mess of spaghetti quotes and quote mining and there's no significant discussion takes place when the thread gets taken over by a small few posters and drives everyone else away who might actually want to contribute to the thread with a relevant point to the actual topic under discussion.

Long, protracted bitching and snide comments back and forth that end up on a hiding to nowhere, don't inform anyone or foster understanding nor do they broaden anyone's knowledge of the actual issues involved in the actual topic, which in this case is not IMO, a thread about the death of Savita Halappanavar, but I felt that following Samaris' post, my initial reply to the original point, did deserve an explanation as to why I at least replied in the way I did.

It is of course your right not to engage with who and what ever you wish, but TBH I find the above to be a rather inappropriate response, an attempt to smear my posts (have I been engaging in any of the above? Bitching? Quote mining? I think not) while avoiding the fact that your initial reply was just as dishonest as the post you were defending.

The HIQA report did not come to any conclusion about the cause of death - it began by pointing out that this was not its function.

I'd really like to know how people - including you - who are apparently very familiar with the contents of that report can justify spreading what is quite simply a lie about its remit and thus its conclusions.

And I'll continue to point out that issue every time someone tries to propagate that lie. Even if you swiftly disengage without acknowledging your misrepresentation.

Zebra3

How come these criminals are getting assets handed to them by the state when they owe the state so much?

Why are FG colluding with criminals?

Walter H Price

Over the past year ive just become so sick of this backwards little country , if my fiance would leave id be gone already, i honestly have 0 interest in having kids here ... story's like this just hammer that home for me, i not even what has been done in the past ; the abuse ,the corruption, the cover up's etc... i think we can all agree that what went on in those mother and baby homes , industrial schools was vile, sadistic , evil and is a stain on our very nationhood.

What Gauls me is the attitude now , why are my agnostic parents looking for me to baptism my kids , why cant my aunt keep making suggestions for a catholic wedding ceremony when myself and my fiance have told her we categorically under no circumstance want a church wedding, why are our government still plamausing these orders instead of taking a hard line towords them paying the compensation they owe victims. More and more its becoming clear that this country is not for me , this kind of thing just reinforces that desire to get out.

murpho999

Woodville56 wrote: »

Personally I feel that the religious communities should withdraw totally from all public service obligations - education, health & social care and let the state and those who protest about religious involvement in these areas take it on. Of course there's been abuse and evil and criminality in religious run institutions and other involvements over the years, perpetrated by a minority of religious, no one is denying it - case proven. The Catholic Church stands fairly indicted on these issues, but what really stands out now is the venom and nastiness dished out here and elsewhere against Catholicism and religious in general- most of whom are decent, honorable people trying to live out the faith they believe in. There are many faults and failings in the institutional hierarchical Church and these have been called out rightly and fairly - as a practising catholic, albeit struggling with some of my religion's teachings, I understand the "church" to be not only the hierarchy but also those who profess and practice their faith, however uncool and backward looking it may seem to the more "enlightened" among us. So we have contributors to this forum calling the church (and in my view, by association, all who support it) lying hypocrites, rats, criminals etc etc. There are decent and genuinely caring religious out there who are hurt and saddened by the sins of their confreres ( past and present) and who are now unjustly subjected to ridicule and abuse right across the media by the hurlers on the high moral ditch, those who don't really believe in any form of religion much and whose pastime is taking cheap shots at those who do. I do believe that the Catholic Church needs to reform itself big time, it needs to divest itself of the trappings of power and authority and become more pastoral and spiritual for those who wish to remain in the catholic tradition. It should not however cease to preach its mission and its beliefs without fear or favour for those who want to hear , be it on abortion, social justice or other human rights issues. And yes the Catholic church should divest its role in public services (services it took on when the state was unwilling or unable to provide them), and take its own resources with it - for the use of those who value and respect its ethos. The church's involvement in education , health etc has become an onerous millstone around its neck and best let those who we have elected to govern us decide provision policy in the areas of education, health and social services.It should pay its reparation money through selling off assets etc, a poorer church would be no less spiritual or supportive of those who really follow it's teachings. So let those who shout loudest now, and for whom the very mention of religion or religious values is anathema, let them elect a secular government and have their liberal values translated into laws and practices. For those of us who still believe and practice our faith, just leave us to get on with our " silliness" as some see it . We should know better but that's life - live and let live !

Firstly did the religious order you were most likely educated by not teach you anything about paragraphs?:pac:

For me, the issue with the church is not just the abuse issue, for which they deserve full criticism. It’s the hold it has over the people and Irish society that you see less in other western countries.

This country is a supposed to be a republic and there is supposed to be a complete separation of church and state. Thanks to DeValera and Bishop McQuaid, this is still not the case but it is heading in that direction.

The church should not have influence in any way over the states laws, whether that be legislation on divorce, contraception, marriage, and abortion, and right down to whether you can legally buy a pint in a pub on Good Friday.

The church should not receive public funding to run schools that permit only Catholics to attend and force children to adopt its views on religion and social issues.

This in turn indoctrinates children into the church’s thinking and way of life, leading to more and more a la carte Catholics who live their lives without any church influence but still insist on baptisms, communions, confirmations , weddings and funerals. All done out of cultural norms without full thought or understanding of what they are actually signing up too.

The church should not receive public funding to run medical institutions that implement policies that influence medical practices and treatments offered.

They church also receives far too much media attention and airtime. RTE are very guilty of this by interviewing priests at any event in a rural village or by having priests and bishops on chat shows.
I believe that the church should be treated like any other private club or social group. If people want to practise religion then that is their choice but they should do so in their own private life.


I find it insulting that every time a discussion about religion occurs on Boards that non-religious posters are accused by people of being rabid anti-Catholic or talking bile whilst people who defend the church and promote belief in what is perceived by manty as unproven fairy tales are completely rational.

Woodville56

Zebra3 wrote: »

How come these criminals are getting assets handed to them by the state when they owe the state so much?

Why are FG colluding with criminals?

Perhaps you might enlighten us as to who these actual criminals are ?? Is it the prospective Board which will manage the new Maternity Hospital , which will have just two religious Sisters of Charity on it ? Or is it the superior and seniors of the Order ? Or is it a case of guilty by association ? Just as their predecessors were guilty of wrongdoing, their successors carry the same criminality? Unpaid debt / restitution should be fully paid by the religious orders but is everyone who owes a debt a criminal ?
Personally I think the religious should pay up what was agreed and let the state build its own hospitals, schools etc , but don't expect the religious orders or the church to go on a guilt trip of bankrolling secular liberalism in education or health.

realdanbreen

Walter H Price wrote: »

Over the past year ive just become so sick of this backwards little country , if my fiance would leave id be gone already, i honestly have 0 interest in having kids here ... story's like this just hammer that home for me, i not even what has been done in the past ; the abuse ,the corruption, the cover up's etc... i think we can all agree that what went on in those mother and baby homes , industrial schools was vile, sadistic , evil and is a stain on our very nationhood.

What Gauls me is the attitude now , why are my agnostic parents looking for me to baptism my kids , why cant my aunt keep making suggestions for a catholic wedding ceremony when myself and my fiance have told her we categorically under no circumstance want a church wedding, why are our government still plamausing these orders instead of taking a hard line towords them paying the compensation they owe victims. More and more its becoming clear that this country is not for me , this kind of thing just reinforces that desire to get out.

Sounds like you need to start with a family meeting Walt.
Where are you thinking of emigrating to?

Mrs OBumble

Walter H Price wrote: »

Over the past year ive just become so sick of this backwards little country , if my fiance would leave id be gone already, i honestly have 0 interest in having kids here ... story's like this just hammer that home for me, i not even what has been done in the past ; the abuse ,the corruption, the cover up's etc... i think we can all agree that what went on in those mother and baby homes , industrial schools was vile, sadistic , evil and is a stain on our very nationhood.

What Gauls me is the attitude now , why are my agnostic parents looking for me to baptism my kids , why cant my aunt keep making suggestions for a catholic wedding ceremony when myself and my fiance have told her we categorically under no circumstance want a church wedding, why are our government still plamausing these orders instead of taking a hard line towords them paying the compensation they owe victims. More and more its becoming clear that this country is not for me , this kind of thing just reinforces that desire to get out.

Even if you leave, you will still be Irish.

It wasn't some remote church that did all those atrocities. It was Irish men and women.

Running away from facing up to the past doesnt solve anything. Though it may enable you to have babies in a place with safer staff/patient ratios.

TheDoctor

Woodville56 wrote: »

Perhaps you might enlighten us as to who these actual criminals are ?? Is it the prospective Board which will manage the new Maternity Hospital , which will have just two religious Sisters of Charity on it ? Or is it the superior and seniors of the Order ? Or is it a case of guilty by association ? Just as their predecessors were guilty of wrongdoing, their successors carry the same criminality?

Yes imagine tying people in an organisation to the past of said organisation.
It would be like say, the Catholic Church saying we are all born with original sin for Adam and Eve taking the apple in Eden.......

Walter H Price

realdanbreen wrote: »

Sounds like you need to start with a family meeting Walt.
Where are you thinking of emigrating to?

Probably Canada, if i could , though the States would be easiest for us as i have citizenship. My OH is pretty reluctant though shes a bit of a home bird, though she keeps saying if Sinn Fein get elected she'll be on the first flight out hahahaha

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Even if you leave, you will still be Irish.

It wasn't some remote church that did all those atrocities. It was Irish men and women.

Running away from facing up to the past doesn't solve anything. Though it may enable you to have babies in a place with safer staff/patient ratios.

Like i said its not the past that's affecting me ,I honestly believe even the most devout Catholics are ashamed by the abuses committed by their church... It's the present apathy of the government in relation to the church , why do they still hold ownership of and decide the ethos of our hospitals and the vast majority of our primary schools which are fully funded by the tax payer , this is not a secular state and there appears to be little or no political appetite to change that , that's why i'd rather leave.

shesty

I can't figure out why the Government would give them ownership of the hospital.Think about it-I assume they are an order diminishing in numbers, with relatively few new members, with an ageing population in this country.Why on earth would they want to be involved in a new maternity hospital?They just don't have the clout for it anymore.

So then you have to ask....What is in it for the Government?Is it funding?Is it the land?What is driving this decision?They aren't doing this out if the goodness of their hearts, they're doing it to get something from it.As far as I can see, they want the land to build it on, or else they have some set up with how it will be funded year on year that is advantageous (to the Government and the HSE - not the taxpayer).

The thing that makes me most sick is not that the nuns will 'own' the hospital, but that our Government are still so backward that they even consider involving a religious order in a new hospital instead of taking on full responsibility for building, running and funding this themselves.It's like they are afraid to take State responsibility for these things, always running back to allowing charity or religious organisations fill the gaps for them.Annoys the crap out of me.

As a matter of interest....who will 'own' the new national children's hospital?

pilly

Walter H Price wrote: »

Over the past year ive just become so sick of this backwards little country , if my fiance would leave id be gone already, i honestly have 0 interest in having kids here ... story's like this just hammer that home for me, i not even what has been done in the past ; the abuse ,the corruption, the cover up's etc... i think we can all agree that what went on in those mother and baby homes , industrial schools was vile, sadistic , evil and is a stain on our very nationhood.

What Gauls me is the attitude now , why are my agnostic parents looking for me to baptism my kids , why cant my aunt keep making suggestions for a catholic wedding ceremony when myself and my fiance have told her we categorically under no circumstance want a church wedding, why are our government still plamausing these orders instead of taking a hard line towords them paying the compensation they owe victims. More and more its becoming clear that this country is not for me , this kind of thing just reinforces that desire to get out.

I agree with a lot of what you've said but it kind of gets to me when people put down the whole country because of these issues.

I see where you're coming from but every country has similar issues though, we're not unique in any way in that sense.

Zebra3

Woodville56 wrote: »

Perhaps you might enlighten us as to who these actual criminals are ?? Is it the prospective Board which will manage the new Maternity Hospital , which will have just two religious Sisters of Charity on it ? Or is it the superior and seniors of the Order ? Or is it a case of guilty by association ? Just as their predecessors were guilty of wrongdoing, their successors carry the same criminality? Unpaid debt / restitution should be fully paid by the religious orders but is everyone who owes a debt a criminal ?
Personally I think the religious should pay up what was agreed and let the state build its own hospitals, schools etc , but don't expect the religious orders or the church to go on a guilt trip of bankrolling secular liberalism in education or health.

The criminals who raped and enslaved people.

Protected by their institutions which should be proscribed due to their long running criminality.

Walter H Price

pilly wrote: »

I agree with a lot of what you've said but it kind of gets to me when people put down the whole country because of these issues.

I see where you're coming from but every country has similar issues though, we're not unique in any way in that sense.

Its peoples apathy thats getting me , dont get me wrong there are people all over the place calling out this madness , school patronage , hospital patronage , so on so forth. But they are still an overwhelming minority and with all that's come out in recent years i find the apathy among the majority of the population and lack of political will to change or challenge the church state relationship really depressing.

all country's have their issues , i'm old enough and lived in enough places to recognize that , but there are few country's left particularly in the west with as backwards an attitude towards religion as ourselves. These kind of story's hammer that home , do i want my fiance to have a baby in a hospital where religious ideology we don't subscribe to could impact on the level of care she receives, as happened to Savita Halapanavar ? Do i want my kids to go to schools where there going to be spoon fed that make believe religious BS as fact from the time their 4 ? If my daughter or Fiance end up with an unwanted pregnancy (for whatever reason) do i want them to have to travel to the UK for what is in effect just a medical procedure ?


These are major issues to be honest , for me its enough to make me want out , if others are comfy with it more power to them, but its not for me.

pilly

Walter H Price wrote: »

Its peoples apathy thats getting me , dont get me wrong there are people all over the place calling out this madness , school patronage , hospital patronage , so on so forth. But they are still an overwhelming minority and with all that's come out in recent years i find the apathy among the majority of the population and lack of political will to change or challenge the church state relationship really depressing.

all country's have their issues , i'm old enough and lived in enough places to recognize that , but there are few country's left particularly in the west with as backwards an attitude towards religion as ourselves. These kind of story's hammer that home , do i want my fiance to have a baby in a hospital where religious ideology we don't subscribe to could impact on the level of care she receives, as happened to Savita Halapanavar ? Do i want my kids to go to schools where there going to be spoon fed that make believe religious BS as fact from the time their 4 ? If my daughter or Fiance end up with an unwanted pregnancy (for whatever reason) do i want them to have to travel to the UK for what is in effect just a medical procedure ?


These are major issues to be honest , for me its enough to make me want out , if others are comfy with it more power to them, but its not for me.

No I get it, my children are grown now so maybe I don't worry so much about it but when I think about it I'm not sure there are many other places I would like to have raised them.

I've friends and family all over the world and there are far bigger issues in a lot of places when it comes to the raising of kids.

I do think things are changing here, albeit slowly. Abortion will eventually be allowed and the state will separate itself from the church, these things just take time.

One eyed Jack

pilly wrote: »

I do think things are changing here, albeit slowly. Abortion will eventually be allowed and the state will separate itself from the church, these things just take time.

Can I borrow that crystal ball when you're done?

infogiver

Walter H Price wrote: »

Over the past year ive just become so sick of this backwards little country , if my fiance would leave id be gone already, i honestly have 0 interest in having kids here ... story's like this just hammer that home for me, i not even what has been done in the past ; the abuse ,the corruption, the cover up's etc... i think we can all agree that what went on in those mother and baby homes , industrial schools was vile, sadistic , evil and is a stain on our very nationhood.

What Gauls me is the attitude now , why are my agnostic parents looking for me to baptism my kids , why cant my aunt keep making suggestions for a catholic wedding ceremony when myself and my fiance have told her we categorically under no circumstance want a church wedding, why are our government still plamausing these orders instead of taking a hard line towords them paying the compensation they owe victims. More and more its becoming clear that this country is not for me , this kind of thing just reinforces that desire to get out.

You seem to be having a terrible experience here in relation to the build up to your nuptials and the upbringing of your children and your very unhappy with the general governance of the country.
You've posted in many other threads about these things and I always find you courteous and open to others opinions.
Its not really a backwards little country, its quite a nice place to live if you are not surrounded by people who you allow to interfere in your family.
I'm lucky in that both my own family and my in laws live in Ireland but just that far enough away that they don't get to comment on my domestic set up.

Walter H Price

pilly wrote: »

I do think things are changing here, albeit slowly. Abortion will eventually be allowed and the state will separate itself from the church, these things just take time.

Don't know if i have the patience or the desire to hang around and wait for this country to mature , will be starting a family hopefully in the next 12 -18 months , can see it taking a long long time for there to be any political will here to make any real change regards the Church /State relationship.

pilly

Walter H Price wrote: »

Don't know if i have the patience or the desire to hang around and wait for this country to mature , will be starting a family hopefully in the next 12 -18 months , can see it taking a long long time for there to be any political will here to make any real change regards the Church /State relationship.

So what country are you going to move to?

Mr.Wemmick

Walter H Price wrote: »

These are major issues to be honest , for me its enough to make me want out , if others are comfy with it more power to them, but its not for me.

What I will say about living in other countries (lived in 2 others as well as Eire) is that they all have their equal negatives.. and I believe when the positives in a country outweigh the negatives, that's when you know you can settle and be happy. I too find the religion/state combination over powering in Ireland and the mind boggles to think it continues as strongly as it does today.

Interestingly, I think the lack of enforced accountability and transparency in dealing with the crimes of the church not only lets down the country, but any good hardworking conscientious people working within the church today.

Does it not make sense to have a clean sweep and root out the bad by dealing with the past thoroughly, pay the victims of those crimes and allow closure. This could then pave way for younger people of the Church to rise up the ranks and reformed it so it reflects a more honest and modern Ireland..

I can't help thinking every time the Church in Ireland tries to move forward, it trips over itself and is completely over shadowed by its murky & shameful past.

groovyg

Just in relation to the governance and composition of the new board.
The deal with the new NMH is that they initially will have 4 of the 9 seats on the board. The chair will rotate every 3 years and the first Chair will be one of the NMH nominated Directors. After the first 3 year term SVHG will then appoint a chairperson which will mean they have 5 seats on the 9 person board. If SVHG are majority shareholder on the board what does this mean in terms of governance?

Simon Harris tweeted a statement from the Master of the NMH outlining why she supports the new NMH plans but her statement
wasn't really one of support.

infogiver

Walter H Price wrote: »

Its peoples apathy thats getting me , dont get me wrong there are people all over the place calling out this madness , school patronage , hospital patronage , so on so forth. But they are still an overwhelming minority and with all that's come out in recent years i find the apathy among the majority of the population and lack of political will to change or challenge the church state relationship really depressing.

all country's have their issues , i'm old enough and lived in enough places to recognize that , but there are few country's left particularly in the west with as backwards an attitude towards religion as ourselves. These kind of story's hammer that home , do i want my fiance to have a baby in a hospital where religious ideology we don't subscribe to could impact on the level of care she receives, as happened to Savita Halapanavar ? Do i want my kids to go to schools where there going to be spoon fed that make believe religious BS as fact from the time their 4 ? If my daughter or Fiance end up with an unwanted pregnancy (for whatever reason) do i want them to have to travel to the UK for what is in effect just a medical procedure ?


These are major issues to be honest , for me its enough to make me want out , if others are comfy with it more power to them, but its not for me.

According to WHO there are only 5 countries in the whole world safer then Ireland to be pregnant and have a baby in. Canada is not in the top five either.

Walter H Price

pilly wrote: »

So what country are you going to move to?

If i had my pick i'd go back to Canada to be honest

ohnonotgmail

I've been forwarded a petition on this that may be of interest. Link is in my sig.

Walter H Price

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I've been forwarded a petition on this that may be of interest. Link is in my sig.

Signed already its getting good traction to be fair

pilly

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I've been forwarded a petition on this that may be of interest. Link is in my sig.

How do you mean link is in your sig?

ohnonotgmail

pilly wrote: »

How do you mean link is in your sig?

if you look in my sig there is a link to the petition. The link is in the word "here"

pilly

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

if you look in my sig there is a link to the petition. The link is in the word "here"

Thanks, done.

Zebra3

Walter H Price wrote: »

Its peoples apathy thats getting me , dont get me wrong there are people all over the place calling out this madness , school patronage , hospital patronage , so on so forth. But they are still an overwhelming minority and with all that's come out in recent years i find the apathy among the majority of the population and lack of political will to change or challenge the church state relationship really depressing.

all country's have their issues , i'm old enough and lived in enough places to recognize that , but there are few country's left particularly in the west with as backwards an attitude towards religion as ourselves. These kind of story's hammer that home , do i want my fiance to have a baby in a hospital where religious ideology we don't subscribe to could impact on the level of care she receives, as happened to Savita Halapanavar ? Do i want my kids to go to schools where there going to be spoon fed that make believe religious BS as fact from the time their 4 ? If my daughter or Fiance end up with an unwanted pregnancy (for whatever reason) do i want them to have to travel to the UK for what is in effect just a medical procedure ?


These are major issues to be honest , for me its enough to make me want out , if others are comfy with it more power to them, but its not for me.

Don't forget about all those who keep funding the RC Church through wedding and christening "voluntary" tax-free donations because they haven't got the balls to tell their folks or in-laws they want nothing to do with a bunch of rapists.

Walter H Price

Zebra3 wrote: »

Don't forget about all those who keep funding the RC Church through wedding and christening "voluntary" tax-free donations because they haven't got the balls to tell their folks or in-laws they want nothing to do with a bunch of rapists.

that's part of the apathy i'm talking about even my own totally agnostic never brought us to mass once parents , talked my sister into making her Confo so as not to upset the nana's , my ma was a bit iffy when i said we weren't doing the church wedding thing and has brought it up more then once that even though we don't believe , we should baptize any kids to make sure we can get them into school ... allot of my mates are the same , its all just a bit sad to be honest. as a country we seem to just have a totally fcuked up relationship with this stuff.