Are secondary school dress codes still sexist?

Wanderer2010

The son started secondary school last year and the dress code for boys is very basic.Black trousers, jumper and shirt and tie. Shoes are described as casual.

There are girls in the school but only 5th 6th and repeat leaving so the boys far outnumber the girls. However, from chatting to a parent of one of the girls, they told me the girls have a bullet list of dress code requirements from length of skirt, color of socks, blazer, no make up or jewellery and hair tied back. I didnt believe it until i saw the code with my own eyes as it read like something from the 1940s!

Whats even worse is some of the teachers, mostly older ones, are super aggressive if one of the girls have even one part of the uniform wrong and yet the lads can tie their jumper around the waist and discard the tie, in the recent hot weather.

Is this kind of thing an outlier or are dress codes still unbalanced in your view?

freshpopcorn

When I went to secondary school the principal and one teacher were strict about black shoes and ties.

Since leaving the principal changed and now you can wear black runners.

They also have an O'Neills half zip. Which seems very popular.

From I cam see now people are happy and there was far two much time wasted on tie and wearing runners when I was there.

kowloonkev

Discipline and structure are very important for most kids to do well. Don't understand people's constant gripes about rules and complaining when schools try to run a tight ship to teach kids self-discipline and self-respect.

The example given is not sexist either.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119065837#Comment_119065837

Presumably girls who have parents with large 6 figure salaries can have knuckle tattoos also?

Dial Hard

There are sexist elements in some schools, yes. In my niece's school the girls aren't allowed take their jumpers off on warm days but the boys are. They're also not allowed wear leggings for PE or sports as they're "inappropriate" 🙄🙄🙄

Kathnora

There are sexist elements in some schools, yes. In my niece's school the girls aren't allowed take their jumpers off on warm days but the boys are. They're also not allowed wear leggings for PE or sports as they're "inappropriate" 🙄🙄🙄 (Dial Hard)

It does sound harsh that girls aren't allowed to take their jumpers off in warm weather but I wonder if the reason behind that rule is that SOME girls may unbutton too much of their shirts? ... worth thinking about...

I can agree with the no leggings rule. On some girls leggings look fine and the material in them is of good quality ...no problem there. But, some girls wear leggings that look no better than sheer tights and leave very little to the imagination ...camel toe fronts and all that jazz. Other girls who may be on the heavy side also wear them and face ridicule from their peers and perhaps especially the lads in a co-ed school. So, I guess it's easier to just ban the leggings rather than try to monitor who is wearing "suitable" leggings.

Dial Hard

So sexist aspects to dress codes are the girls' own fault because sluts and fatties. Got it.

We've just reached peak AH.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119066033#Comment_119066033

As the kids get older, though, that becomes less and less the case. And more flexibility is reguired.

Telling a seven year old off for wearing the wrong shirt is one thing, telling a seventeen year old is counter productive.

And even then, why would you see telling seventeen year olds to wear a certain colour shirt as "discipline and structure" as long as the student is clean tidy and does the course work?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119066244#Comment_119066244

It does sound harsh that girls aren't allowed to take their jumpers off in warm weather but I wonder if the reason behind that rule is that SOME girls may unbutton too much of their shirts? ... worth thinking about...

Rather then making girls suffer their way though hot weather in jumpers for fear that an open button or two might be a distraction to other students (and staff!) maybe a better approach would be to teach others that ogling girls is not appropriate behaviour?

🙄

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119066478#Comment_119066478

Indeed - we condone Sharia Law dresscodes for the same reason.

sam t smith

Is thread going to be a repeat of the fake news story of the Carlow school that was all over the media and Twitter, then disappeared (with very few apologies) when the truth came out.

Kathnora

Rather then making girls suffer their way though hot weather in jumpers for fear that an open button or two might be a distraction to other students (and staff!) maybe a better approach would be to teach others that ogling girls is not appropriate behaviour? (Loueze)

A good point Loueze but I think we have a long way to go on that one. Educators have been trying their best to discourage ogling for quite a while. It works in some schools but not in others.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119066664#Comment_119066664

That sounds like a cop out.

Not to mention making girls wear full uniform when boys don't have too, is actually discrimination on grounds of gender.

If I had a daughter being discriminated in such a blatant way, that school's Principal and their Board of Management would be hearing from me.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119066478#Comment_119066478

Yeah, good luck with actually achieving that one.

In the OP's case, yes it's sexist. Complain to the principal / board that the boys need more discipline.

Uniform rules exist in schools so that the kids can rebel about something which will do little harm (clothing) rather than something that will (drugs).

Strumms

Why not just say no open buttons, uniform dress code.

in August and May can be very warm… health and safety as well as common sense should dictate that students of either gender may take off a jumper in order to regulate their body temperature…and ensure comfort as well as health and safety.

if I had a kid who was asthmatic or low blood pressure or whatever and was prevented from removing a jumper in order to maintain a level of comfort and wellbeing I’d simply get a doctors note, furnishing the school as well as the department of education with said note and the first occasion where a teacher or principal or vice principal would not be in obeyance… hit the school with a solicitors letter….they can say ‘rules is rules’ but you can say the law trumps that.

Ray Palmer

In the working world the dress codes are often sexist towards men. In one place I worked the male dress code was about 6 pages but the female code was a paragraph. Men had to wear a tie and the ties had a list of rules. No print ties allowed any pattern had to be in the stitching, no characters allowed on ties were 2 I remember. No short sleeved shirts were allowed on men nor shorts. Strict shoe policy for men such as no patent leather and 2 colours were allowed brown or black.

Women were allowed wear most things and one women would wear see through blouses with very frilly bras on show. One of the guys was told to get heavier shirts because his tattoos could be seen through some shirts. Only worked there a month but all very odd for a place where no customer ever came in for such a dress policy. The whole place felt like school with all their rules. They did security checks on whether your desk drawers were locked. I got a demerit for not locking my office drawer with nothing in it the team were annoyed because it broke their perfect score.

sam t smith

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119069378#Comment_119069378

The unlocked drawer thing is hilarious. Were they worries someone else might put something in your desk drawer?

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119071025#Comment_119071025

It get's worse the "prize" was an laptop upgrade first. A laptop upgrade to do your job easier.

sam t smith

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119073095#Comment_119073095

Last place should get a laptop downgrade.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119066244#Comment_119066244

Have you tried not looking at schoolgirls' vaginas?

Potential-Monke

Maybe everyone else is afraid to say it like it was, but I can totally understand the jumper rule. As a 15 year old, the thought of seeing a bra through a school shirt was enough to get me going. This is in the 90s by the way. And I was short and ginger, so not popular with the ladies at all. I believe it's called puberty, and nun-run school in the 90s did not like to talk about that.

I mean, it's not fair, I totally understand. And yes, you can say just teach the boys not to react. But you're talking about possibly hundreds of boys currently going through puberty. Actually, maybe it wouldn't be as bad today because you have porn at your fingertips. If I had that in the 90s, not 20 minute loading for a tit pic, I may not have been on the lookout as much. Maybe they should do away with shirts altogether and instead use, ah... polos. They can be loose fitting and not physique revealing. And are cooler in the summer.

And this may be shocking for some posters to hear, but no matter what I saw that got the main mans blood boiling, I didn't act on it. Strange, I know, males are supposed to be animals, but no, I didn't do anything untoward that wasn't invited. Shocking.

I dunno, sounds like it sucks to be young these days. Sucks to be an "adult" too. Life just sucks. We should be teaching that, life sucks, here's how to deal with it. I'm not against the positive changes and advances, but people really seem to think that we can have this utopian kind of humanity that just doesn't and can never exist. Humans be humans.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119073299#Comment_119073299

So you acknowledge that its not fair and it sucks, but the girls should cover up anyway? So young men don't get a boner?

No one expects boys not to have any reaction. Of course they will. But its how they're taught to deal with it that matters, and that starts with being taught that what is actually inappropriate here, is not the uniform or a glimpse of a bra through a teenage girl's shirt or her ass in a pair of leggings, but ogling a girl because of what she is wearing.

Girls should be able to be comfortable in school, and not have to endure sitting in hot stuffy classrooms in warm temperatures just because some young man hasn't been taught that the polite thing to do is to keep his eyes above her boobs and not stare at her.

FunLover18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119073299#Comment_119073299

So not all men are animals who will do something untoward but you still think girls should cover up because?

mrsgiller

My daughter went to an all girls school where a skirt was compulsory and no jumpers off because if the girls had a coloured bra on under white blouse it distracted the teachers, most ridiculous rules but no problem with dyed hair, full face of makeup or long acrylic nails.

Potential-Monke

Life isn't fair and it sucks. I thought everyone knew that. And I'm not saying they need to cover up, just that I understood the why for my time at least. I always thought prevention was better than cure. Can't both happen? Better uniforms so they don't cause visible bits, and education around sex. As I said, people seem to forget what it was like to be a teen going through puberty. And as I said, in my time sex was just not talked about. It was taboo. The nuns were having none of it. And there was no usable internet to reference. I can't comment on what it's like today.

I've absolutely no issue with anyone wearing whatever they want. Go for it. None of my business. But, and don't immediately jump to victim blaming here, some clothes are literally designed to show off the bits that are appealing and elicit reactions. It's like saying the strong independent female artists are not using sex appeal, ie: WAP. We can't even have a conversation about it because it's immediately met with accusations of victim blaming. Particularly in relation to clothes for children and under 18s, there's no line. I'm not the one to draw that line, but imo there should be one. I will never blame the victim, a victim is a victim, but I do believe we should discuss the circumstances. Seems most people believe everything to be black and white. Yes, people should be comfortable in the knowledge they won't be attacked because [any reason]. But we can't. Not all the time. And to say otherwise is foolish.

I don't want kids, but my god, I can't imagine what it's like to be a father of a teenage girl into the "fashion", ie: revealing or skin tight clothing. It's wrong, but supported, oft times encouraged. There are bad people out there, and no matter what legislation is brought in, no matter what attempts at education there is, they will do bad things. We make calls every day in our lives to ensure our own safety. We don't drive through certain areas because of a reputation. We don't walk alone at night if possible. I won't go on a skiing holiday because the risk isn't worth the reward. But some people would have us be ok with women being able to walk around naked and not elicit reactions. Don't get me wrong, this perfect utopia would have all that, but it's simply just not achievable. All we can do is find our own bubble to be happy in. I honestly think humanity is too far gone, too deep into the ideas of power and money, to be able to change. Some will change, but the ones who matter, the ones in power, won't.

I just wish people would acknowledge that women do use their sex appeal and not just to be a strong independent woman. And reasons are mostly selfish.

josip

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119069378#Comment_119069378

Where did you work Ray, the Mormon Head Office?

FunLover18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119078521#Comment_119078521

I don't know what you're trying to prevent though? Lads getting boners? Life is unfair, why does it have to be unfair for girls (in this instance) because a lad might get a boner? I've been a teenage boy going through puberty and I can't honestly say I would have done better in school if not for all the boners taking blood from my brain.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119078521#Comment_119078521

"I just wish people would acknowledge that women do use their sex appeal and not just be a strong independent woman. And reasons are mostly selfish"

The thread is about teenagers, in school uniforms. Not adults over the age of 18.

School uniforms which, (unless you (generic you) have some kind of kink) are not designed to "show of the bits that are appealing and elicit reactions".

I'm not the one to draw that line, but imo there should be one. I will never blame the victim, a victim is a victim, but I do believe we should discuss the circumstances.

You are victim blaming. Maybe unconciously, but ou can't say on one hand women should be able to wear what they want, but then follow it up with "we should discuss the circumstances."

You are also justifying gender discriminatory rules that oblige teenage girls to cover up in school, because boys get boners.

Potential-Monke

See, can't have a conversation. Life is unfair for everyone. Girls are not special in that regard. Why do we want girls showing off their goods? Why aren't we saying they need display less? Why is it always the males fault regardless? And yes, I'm talking beyond uniforms now. My opinion is NOT that males should be able to do what they want. My opinion is assault is assault. But circumstances matter. We're not teaching girls to look out for themselves, rather encouraging they do whatever they want and the boys will be wrong anyway if something happens.

Maybe it's just me that doesn't want adult sex appeal in teenagers. It's not something I look for, but there are those out there who do. Maybe we should be encouraging young girls to follow women like Tiera Guinn instead of Cardi-B. Then maybe they wouldn't think displaying their bodies is what they should be doing.

Edit: "School uniforms which, (unless you (generic you) have some kind of kink) are not designed to "show of the bits that are appealing and elicit reactions"."

Tell that to all the people buying one of the most popular outfits at Halloween. School uniforms have sex appeal. Or at least, they do up to a point. And even beyond that, some people still like the idea. Why? Because for the formative years during puberty, you are surrounded by girls in school uniforms. Now, this is obviously where peoples preferences come into play, but when I was in school, yeah, the uniform could be sexy. I'm sure plenty of others feel the same but won't admit to it. I think it would be wrong to assume otherwise.

And I can say on one hand and then discuss the circumstances, because they are linked. I can walk down the in a mankini, and do doubts the guards would be called anyway. Should I not be allowed to? Can I not have a luminous g-string wedged up my hairy ginger craic and not have anyone say something? Why is it ok for men to be topless but not women? It's a very broad conversation, covering a lot. You can say I'm victim blaming when I've blamed an actual victim. Give me the story, give me the details, and if I then blame the victim after it, go for it.

Is having skirts for girls and pants for boys not automatically gender discrimination? Should the uniform not be... uniform, regardless of sex? Or at least, as in the case when I was in school, shirts not made of nearly see through material?

FunLover18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119078616#Comment_119078616

Eh we're talking about girls not being able to take of their woolen jumpers on hot days or any days, there's nothing sexual or creepy about that. They still have a shirt and bra on which hardly constitutes "showing off their goods". You're the one who brought that up because supposedly you were a raging horndog but you also didn't act on your impulses (do you want a pat on the back for that?). Girls have to wear big heavy jumpers in case a fellow student gets turned on isn't unfair, it's **** ludicrous.

Potential-Monke

Ok, I'll end it there so. Not getting involved in another back and forth with random people. I've said my bit. Think what you want. Sounds like your issue is more with the material of the uniform tbh. Have a good one!

FunLover18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119078722#Comment_119078722

My issue is that women and girls are at risk of being sexualized just because they take their jumper off and your solution is that they keep their jumpers on. Good night.

c.p.w.g.w

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119066124#Comment_119066124

Well in fairness, I have seen leggings that leave zero to the imagination

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119078616#Comment_119078616

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119078722#Comment_119078722

You're actually just rambling and going off on tangents about Cardi-B etc. Now it's Halloween costumes, which are highly sexualised, they are not the same thing as school uniforms at all.

It's really not as complicated as you're trying to make it. And I'm really glad you're no longer a Garda, given some of what you've said here.

The bottom line is, girls shouldn't have to be uncomfortable or sit in jumpers in school because boys get boners.

End of.

Potential-Monke

I'm glad too, I no longer have to deal with doses.

BurgerFace

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058245946/are-secondary-school-dress-codes-still-sexist

Why is there a problem with girls not to be allowed to wear makeup or jewellery? Why would a girl wear makeup to school? Or jewellery for that matter? Women wear makeup and jewellery as decoration and to make themselves attractive to the opposite sex. That's the purpose of cosmetics. And I have zero problem with that. I like a woman wearing blusher, lipstick, mascara, etc. Whether you like it or not a woman's hair is also a sexual thing. Why do you think that women spend so much time and attention and products makinng their hair glossy, and full and sometimes wild? Most parts of a woman's body are sexual. Lips, shoulders, eyelashes, hips, legs hair, etc. I'm not saying have them all wear a burkha but girls don't need to look sexy in the classroom. Apply the lipstick and shake down your hair when the bell rings.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119078831#Comment_119078831

Jesus wept.

Did it ever occur to some of the neanderthals on here that most women primarily dress how they want, do their hair and nails, and wear makeup and jewellery to make themselves feel good?

It's not all about attracting a bloody man. But of course you think it is.

🤦‍♀️

Subzero3

But what if the girl identifies as a boy or vice versa.

Alex86Eire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119078831#Comment_119078831

Jesus this is a grim read. Wearing makeup and jewellery has nothing to do with men.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119078851#Comment_119078851

They were banned for boys to wear in my school. Lots of boys wear jewelry and nail polish

Wezz

Some of the posters on here have odd ideas about women and girls.....

OP I'm not a parent but I was a pupil in a mixed school with a uniform not too long ago and there were rules around dress code that were less enforced for the lads. We could wear shorts but girls couldn't. The argument was we needed them for GAA but girls played GAA too. It's anecdotal but girls I knew would be pulled up for not wearing full uniform - tie, blazer etc - lads weren't. Not only that if a lad turned up looking like he'd been dragged through a bush it would be "does your mother not know how to iron a shirt", no personal responsibility on them to look respectable. Different story for the girls. Probably depends on the school, mine was a religious one with deeply entrenched gender stereotypes. If I have kids I'd be hoping to send them somewhere a bit more open minded.

riclad

I think girls should be allowed to wear trousers or a skirt, I read most young girls give up cycling to school at a young age because it's not comfortable to cycle a bike wearing a skirt especially in the winter. Go to any street, half the women wear jeans or trousers instead of a dress