The employment crisis in the hospitality sector.

Gusser09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119105759#Comment_119105759

Of course there are good employers and good experiences to be hard for the customer.

I think though the overwhelming experiences of many are negative when it comes to the hospitality sector in Ireland. Prices are just mental for what you get in return.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119105730#Comment_119105730

More times than often customers arrive at premises , of course look at menus, prices etc , it's not just as simple has analysing menu prices , being horrified and getting up to leave , some will have booked an occasion, some will have travelled to an establishment, some may have few options and may have already purchased drinks etc. Of course people can vote with their feet but not always possible.

I recall I had a restaurant in Dingle, over 20 years ago. I was fascinated, even back then at Tourists browsing menu's throughout the day , I initially thought , maybe looking for choice, preference for a particular type of food etc , Not at all,, I discovered, they were primarily checking prices . This was at a time you had 3 choices in Dingle

Fish and Chips

Crap food in grotty tourist type restaurants

Off the scale Fine Dining prices.

My solution and it caused uproar at the time. The introduction of the first Early Bird Menu in Dingle. The Goal to Drive business 5 - 7 by offering a simplified menu with value for money the Key.

I went from a half full restaurant 5 -7 to a queue out the door and bookings 6 months in advance during peak times.

Other restaurants caught on in time but even the Fine Dining establishments tried to compete , the difference, my 3 course price was the same as some starters in these restaurants. I retained a fine dining Bistro style menu from 7 - 10 but always watched prices.

I offered excellent Food at a reasonable price and constantly good service. Developed a successful business by retaining an excellent small team , controlling costs (I was chef Proprietor) and understanding my customers and did not Gouge. My margin was lower 5 -7 but made up through wine sales and enhanced my 7 - 10pm business through reputation and whilst later menu more expensive, so to was choice on offer , I was never greedy , Just practical.

Repeat Business is Better than No Business and primarily achieved by consistency and Well trained and cared for staff . These simple concepts sadly lost in the sector over the past 20 years unfortunately.

ginoginelli

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119105564#Comment_119105564

There is a culture of bullying and mistreatment in the industry. If you work there you are almost expected to treat your subordinates like ****. Lower end postions like kitchen porters and commis, who do back breaking work for peanuts, regularly get roared at and humililted by Sous chefs and head chefs, who never bothered training them properly in the first place, and are doing 12 to 14 hour days themselves for a **** salary.

Owners are also operating on razor thin margins (some are lower tan 5 percent net profit) and are under huge pressure.

Now with rising costs the whole industry in ireland is becoming unsustainable.

Its going to be a tough fix.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r45TaOC_gqs

The above guys are irritating but happened to come on last night and seeing London prices in Carnaby. :D

Aberdeen Angus pie and champ mash £10.95

Into an Indian, £14 for main. Clam etc. pasta elsewhere for £16.50.

Prices have probably increased a bit now to match an Irish culchie pub. But yeah, one of the 5 biggest/most important cities in the world and it's cheaper to get a bit to eat (let alone the variety and quality) than most of Ireland.

Dempo1

Discussion on Scare Byrne, RTE 1 coming up , 3 restaurant owners will discuss increasing costs , for those who might be interested 😏

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119105722#Comment_119105722

funnily enough, you d probably find most industries have all sorts of state supports, without which, simply wouldnt be, many large corporations simply wouldnt exist without these state supports, and this has always been the case, long before covid turned up!

Sunny Disposition

Hospitality has always been a hard game to work in. Very unsociable hours, poor pay, and far too often intimidation and bullying from management. A staff shortage is pretty inevitable when times are good. In a way its surprising the labour shortage isn't far worse.

LineOfBeauty

My degree was in hospitality management, worked in different roles for different hotels in different regions of the country for years and finished up in a 5 star hotel in Dublin. The common thread among all of these jobs was that, aside from HOD's upwards, practically every person I encountered no matter the department they worked in would practically bite your hand off to get out of the hospitality industry. Numerous reasons why but of course the most obvious are the unsociable working hours, the pretty dreadful pay (and nobody cuts more corners than hospitality places) and the demeaning nature of the job.

On the last one, you can provide service in a respectful way but when you're getting roared at both by ungrateful guests and managers only too happy to take the side of the guest for the sake of an easier life then it becomes soul destroying. On top of all of that the work is tough, you're constantly doing something, things you'd take for granted working in an office environment are treats to cherish in hospitality. Maybe there used to be a good working atmosphere among staff pre recession and the chance to actually make your way in a long term career that could provide a comfortable life for you, but at an average wage of around €22,000 a year for the regular run of the mill employee, it's entirely unsustainable.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119106019#Comment_119106019

Quite possibly but those supports are generally focused towards attracting inward investment which in turn leads to employment, corporation taxes etc , I'm referring to governent supports that essentially propped up unviable businesses.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119106046#Comment_119106046

once again, without these state supports, many of these businesses wouldnt be viable. i worked for a large corporation that never made a profit!

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119106084#Comment_119106084

Whilst not wishing to disagree, there's an enormous difference between State Grant aid to support inward investment such as large corporations setting up or expanding in Ireland , through agencies such the IDA and government supports throughout the pandemic that essentially propped up businesses that were essentially not viable even before the pandemic.

As I've said, there was a logic towards offering supports initially but over two years , Debts kept mounting , now there's the double whammy of staffing shortages, operating costs which are simply unsustainable.

fishersham

Perhaps where I'm working is particularly bad, but the staff shortage is very very real.

I'm only scheduled for five 8 or 9 hours shifts a week but I end up working close to 50 as we are so understaffed. Most of the time, you can't leave when your shift is supposed to be over. There's a sort of unspoken agreement that everyone stays an extra hour or 2 to keep things afloat as it's already a disaster before you've left. We don't get paid anything beyond minium wage for this time BTW. A third of the time I don't get a break whatsoever. I've done 10/11 hours without a break before. I could just about handle this as I only worked summer and some weekends but I've recently handed in my notice.

Place can't keep kitchen porters or cooks either. I've only been there a year and they've gone through 10 kitchen porters and cooks last 3 months at most. Everyone is on 10.50 an hour. Even guys who have been there since their teens and are in their mid-20s now are still on minimum wage. People who, quite frankly, keep this place afloat.

They wonder why they can't keep people 🙄

Yet the prices are Dublin-esque and we're 3 hours from there. I'm sick of customers complaining to me about it. €15 for a burger without chips??

boardsie12

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119105905#Comment_119105905

That's exactly it!

Nobody should be allowed to bully anyone else, I'm always so surprised that these things continue to happen every week, more importantly, I'm always curious why things are not regulated properly, there should be regular meetings with bosses and managers and random checks.

Managers don't give a **** because they are probably only earning an extra euro or 2 per hour, and realize that they are just a bunch of **** and take out their frustration on the vulnerable workers.

Now is the perfect time they can reflect and hopefully it's now fully aware that they were mistreating and abusing people for years and years!

fishersham

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119106208#Comment_119106208

Very true about the managers.

Owners are millionaires but bar and restaurant managers where I work are only earning a few euro above minimum wage, for a pretty thankless job

boardsie12

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119106194#Comment_119106194

Being a kitchen porter is a horrible job!

I've seen grown men cry, plates thrown around the place like frisbees!

You've only seen 10 kitchen porters leave? I'm surprised that number is not close to 50

boardsie12

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119106216#Comment_119106216

They should really start paying their staff properly and none of this mess would ever have happened

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119106228#Comment_119106228

I actually started as KP before training professionally , it's a tough job but throughout my career from Junior to head chef , Proprietor, General Management, I considered KP's just as important has experienced Chefs and paid them accordingly. A quality commercial kitchen can not Function without experienced KP's

To many establishments just don't get the importance of backroom staff to include porters, cleaners, House Keeping and maintenance personnel.

Gusser09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119105832#Comment_119105832

Well done Wanderer. You sound like you know what you're talking about.

Would you agree that filling table and encouraging more covers with lower prices is more profitable than having a half empty place but with sky high prices?

ginoginelli

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119106258#Comment_119106258

How the KP is treated was usually a good initial indicator for me if the place was going to be a decent working environment.

Some chefs would realize how valuable a solid KP is and treat them with respect and still be arsehole to everyone else, so it want always the case, but generally, it was a reasonably good sign u went working with complete ****.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119106346#Comment_119106346

Your 100% correct , when I ran Kitchens I ran them essentially like an office and the KP was essentially my office manager. They not only deal with cleaning but stores, Deliveries and in many cases assist with basic food preparation, indeed many famous Chefs started their careers as KP's .

TheTruth89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058246660/the-employment-crisis-in-the-hospitality-sector

Absolutely delighted those businesses are struggling they deserve it, pay a proper living or stop complaining.

Gusser09

Essentially the complaint is that there isn't enough cheap labour rather than a shortage of staff.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119105815#Comment_119105815

Depends on the quality, but no, I wouldn’t consider it good value, but you are the fool that paid it and is now complaining about it. Does it come as a surprise to you that you are charged more for eating in a hotel compared to a local cafe? Next time you are in a hotel, take a look around, see why there might be a difference in costs.

Asking to see profit margins is akin to asking you to prove your productivity is commensurate with your wage, are you value for your wage?

ginoginelli

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119106368#Comment_119106368

In someways it's the ideal place to start. You learn from the bottom up, work your way up through the brigade incrementally, and get a solid foundation. I've worked with a lot of great chefs who started this way.

On the flipside of that you have qualified chefs coming in after 1 - 3 years of college, that never did any proper placement and end up really struggling. Becoming a legitimate chef takes years of hands on experience.

Gusser09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119106444#Comment_119106444

Yes I was the fool who paid. But fool me once and all of that. I won't be back, left a dreadful review for them and will be warning everyone I know not to go in there. I'd be local enough to the place too. So jokes on them.

Are you value for your wage?

I wouldn't work, and wouldn't blame anyone for not working in places with high net profits paying the minimum wage.

There is no staff shortage. Just a shortage of cheap foreign labour.

This particular sector are well looked after. Reduced Vat rate and certain parts also pushed for the MUP on Off-License sales.

Smallest violin in the world.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119106449#Comment_119106449

Absolutely correct , there's also these fancy and expensive private schools who turn out people who'd struggle to make fairy cakes let alone work in a seriously tough and high pressure environment, I've had a few Tears in my time 😁

I trained in Rockwell Hotel School, was once part of Rockwell College and considered in its time to one of the best Chef Training College in Europe, there was a time your a CV without mention of Rockwell, went straight in the Bin and some establishments would only hire Chefs trained in Rockwell. Many ex students went on to manage very famous Hotel and restaurant Kitchens around the world.

dorothylives

The hospitality industry has always been a horrible place to work. Employers treat staff as disposable, easy come easy go. Pay them peanuts and expect them to be grateful. We ordered take out at the weekend, since we ordered it a month ago the prices have gone up, plus they've done away with free delivery and charge 2.50 now as well as a 50 cent service charge, that's the last time we'll order from them. I think this time next year there's going to be a lot fewer hospitality businesses as people are going to struggle with rising fuel, food and mortgage/rent payments so eating out and holidays will be a luxury many people will cut out. When the government business supports end that will kill many businesses that should have been closed long ago.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119106485#Comment_119106485

I’m self employed so the market sets my pay rate.

Jobs in the hospitality industry are low/minimum rate jobs because they require no qualifications, for the most part no experience, the workforce is often part time and transient, it mostly involves simple work though the hours may be long. All my kids had part time jobs in hospitality, all of them earned minimum wage, none of them cared whether they kept their job and didn’t hesitate to move if the hours/job didn’t suit. Were they looking for the same wage as a full time industrial worker? Of course not.

Any person who feels ripped off after buying something that they can view the price of before paying for it deserves what they get.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119106372#Comment_119106372

You're going to really feel at home when SF get into government, with that sort of anti-business attitude.

Hopefully the business you work in doesn't struggle, but then again maybe your business deserves it.

PokeHerKing

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119106739#Comment_119106739

Qualifications aside. Most jobs will hire people with no experience in the role. If you think only hospitality hire staff with no experience you're poorly informed.

Experience usually means a job well done. Poor waiters are like poor doctors. Your life may not depend on the waiter but your experience will be bad with both services.

ittakestwo

Workers in the hospitality is transient. When covid shut hospitality down for the best part of two years alot of these workers who left the hospitality would have left anyway in this two year period. Alot of foreigners in this industry went home too or into another industry.

But because hospitality was shut it did no hiring in this period. Other sectors of the economy were still hiring and accommodation that hospitality workers were in has now been filled by non hospitality workers.

Then suddenly in January everything is open again..a hundred thousand jobs in hospitality created overnight? But alot of the workers who were working pre covid have left, a unreal housing crises so no influx of cheap foreigner workers to come and fill these jobs as there is nowhere to live. Perhaps some of the Ukrainians might help easy the pressure a bit but i think it is doom and gloom for the hospitality industry.

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119106739#Comment_119106739

Most chef's attend college and have qualifications. Culinary arts is a 4 year course - do you not realise that. Often they work for free while going to college to gain experience.

Agree that waitresses/kps don't have qualifications but most chef's have qualifications.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119106811#Comment_119106811

Possibly the most absurd post I’ve read, poor waiters are not like poor Doctors. Some jobs require qualifications, some require experience, most of the lower paid jobs in hospitality require neither.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119106842#Comment_119106842

I do appreciate that, I was referring more to the part time/lower paid jobs in hospitality. I have friends who own bars/restaurants, they have told me that good chefs are vital.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119106842#Comment_119106842

Correct re Culinary Arts course , I went on to do advanced studies , another 2 years , so for me it was 6 , I worked most of the time albeit 2 years in Rockwell was boarding but we went out at weekends etc to work in various establishments to gain experience.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119106753#Comment_119106753

SF are pro-business so your point is incorrect.

Geuze

Some comparisons between Ireland and France

(1) Chartier restaurant Central Paris

https://www.bouillon-chartier.com/en/grands-boulevards/la-carte/

Soup = 1.00

Egg mayonaise = 2.00

Main courses

sea bream with sauce = 13

rump steak and chips = 11.40

roast chicken and chips = 9.00

(2) Le Balto, cafe-restaurant, central Paris

50cl beer = 6.00, pint equivalent = 6.82

Main dish = 14 (steak extra)

3-course meal = 25

Bear in mind this is in high-tax France, with very high employers PRSI

Compare these prices to fish and chips / main meals in a pub near or in Galway city

John Keogh's pub, Dominick street

GILLIGANS FARM 6OZ RIBEYE BEEF BURGER (Brioche bun, caramelized onion, smoked cheddar, burger garnish, steakhouse style fries) = 17

FISH & CHIPS (Market fish of the evening, classic fish batter, chunky tartare sauce, lemon, steakhouse style fries) = 17

PokeHerKing

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119106857#Comment_119106857

Poor service is poor service, your opinion of the profession is immaterial.

enricoh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119107334#Comment_119107334

Hmmm, paddy needs to get it's house in order fairly lively. Tourists are getting hit in the pocket like everyone else n value for money will become more of an issue for them

Gusser09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119106739#Comment_119106739

Would you agree that the issue is with the lack of cheap labour currently available? Part of the solution might be to offer better pay and t's and c's

Where did i say i saw the prices before i paid. So you are advocating for businness's ripping off people as long as its advertised? I dont think its as simplisitic as you want to make out. Plenty of locations that might not have a lot of choice so you are stuck paying what they want.

Are you self employed in hospitality or another businness which relies on hospitality?

From reading some of the real world experiences on here it seems zero hour contracts, minimum wage and staff getting treated like dogs are the order of the day. That couple with big profits its hard to have a shred of sympathy.

Gusser09

Hotel in Naas - tomato soup 7.50.

Thats in Naas ffs.

Allinall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119107505#Comment_119107505

Where are you getting the "big profits" from?

Any hospitality places I know ( and I would be privy to their takings and costs) are working off very low margins.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119107554#Comment_119107554

Shh, stop that.

Soup in Naas 7.50, huge profits.

Get with it.

Allinall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119107607#Comment_119107607

Thought that was a tip for a horse for a minute.

Disappointed now. 😁

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119106739#Comment_119106739

This is exactly how a large part of the sector runs, taking in students and the like, paying them minimum wage and not caring a crap when they get fed up and move on. That they then have the utter cheek to complain that they can't get staff and to complain about people on the live register, is what annoys people. Let the good hospitality businesses thrive and the rest may go to the wall.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119106753#Comment_119106753

Oh no, don't threaten us with big scary Sinn Féin!

Look, a lot of what is being described in this thread isn't business, doesn't resemble business and you'll have a hard time convincing anyone else it's business.

It's vanilla exploitation of migrant workers often with no work visas / unsecure visas, and young workers who don't know any better. Put a saddle on them, ride them until they drop and pay them as little as possible.

A real business is clued in to worker retention and knows that the customer experience ultimately flows from at least somewhat content staff that are respected.

Gusser09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119107554#Comment_119107554

Ah ok. I had asked that before about the profit margins. I assume someone must be making money whether its the owners or landlords etc.

Geuze

Several years ago, maybe 4-5 years ago, I was informed from a reliable source (an employee) that the gross profit margin on food in Hargadon's pub in Sligo town centre is 74%, with a hope/plan to move to 75%.

So if you buy a meal for 12.00, the food cost is 3.00.

The VAT must come out of the gross margin.

I expect places in Dublin and other cities are now on 80% GP on food.

Gusser09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119107800#Comment_119107800

That doesn't fit with the poor mouth contrarians on here though.

Allinall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119107800#Comment_119107800

Gross margin is a meaningless figure.

Do they have direct overheads in the calculation?